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blitzkrieg_climber13
Apr 25, 2006, 11:51 PM
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i just watched the video of tony lamiche doin the third ascent of the fly and he has all the draws clipped before he even touches the rock. he really top roped it. i think thats horse sh*t. if he wants to take the credit for it then he should at least clip one of the 2 bolts on the route while climbing. or just send it sans rope like jason kehl. dont get me wrong, its an amazing feat and i could never imagine myself doing anything that hard but i think that people made too big a deal out of some highball boulder problem being top roped.
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fracture
Apr 25, 2006, 11:58 PM
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Jason didn't really do it sans rope---he rehearsed it on toprope. He just didn't use the rope on his ascent.
Lamiche's ascent is still a valid redpoint. Chris Sharma did the same thing when he redpointed it, also.
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the_mitt
Apr 26, 2006, 12:04 AM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:42 PM)
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yokese
Apr 26, 2006, 12:09 AM
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In reply to: Lamiche's ascent is still a valid redpoint.
I have to disagree. Despite the enourmous merit of climbing a 9a, what this guy is doing in the video is a top-rope, not a redpoint. Although nowadays the vast majority of the hard "redpoints" are actually "pinkpoints", there is still a big difference between clipping the rope during the ascent vs. top-roping a route.
That said, congratulations to Lamiche and to any other mutant guy climbing that hard.
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tonloc
Apr 26, 2006, 12:11 AM
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pretty sure sending it without the rope really does count as doing it without a rope, have you ever soloed something that you have done before and called it a free solo?
yeah they should have clipped the second bolt while climbing, Sharma almost flashed it clipping while he climbed but then did it with the crux toproped...
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funkyboz
Apr 26, 2006, 12:35 AM
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Jason Kehl rewrote the fly when he did it without a rope. Sure, he rehearsed it with a rope, but when it came down to it, he but it on the line and was successful.
The Fly is a highball boulder problem, with a relatively bad landing, period. If you choose to yard on it with a top rope, great. That's not the send. It may eb equally fun, you may do the same exact moves, but there is also an element of risk in there that is part and parcel to the climb itself. Without that, its not the same climb.
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salamanizer
Apr 26, 2006, 5:54 AM
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^^^^^
Agreed!
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styndall
Apr 26, 2006, 6:48 AM
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Whatever.
He climbed the thing and didn't fall.
Any other considerations are rope-management wankery.
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tonloc
Apr 26, 2006, 10:23 AM
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word, he no fall, he strong man
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jakedatc
Apr 26, 2006, 11:06 AM
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people who have never touched the start holds should shut the hell up...
:deadhorse: :boring: :boring:
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devkrev
Apr 26, 2006, 12:36 PM
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In reply to: people who have never touched the start holds should shut the hell up... :deadhorse: :boring: :boring:
I have no idea what this route is rated, let alone touched the start holds...but
I think that having the draws hanging on the route before you climb it is fine. Sport climbing is all about the moves. This hogwash about clipping draws to hangers is SILLY. Thats not the focus of sport climbing, if you want to wank around with gear, then climb trad, or aid.
Also, if you have a problem with his style, when YOU go send the thing, then YOU climb it however you want.
But I don't know, I'm just a noob
:D
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sevrdhed
Apr 26, 2006, 12:41 PM
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I think it's funny to see these kind of debates on the internet.. especially here, where so many people espouse "Climbing for themselves". Should it really be... "Climb for yourself, unless you climb really hard"?
Seriously, who cares? This is like sitting in my apartment listening to my roommate talk about baseball players stats. I don't competitively play baseball, so what the hell do I care?
Steve
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jakedatc
Apr 26, 2006, 1:07 PM
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Dev we are in agreement.. People have been bitching about The Fly (5.14d/ V13) for years.. people in fucking california who've never even been on this side of the country are like Dude it's a fucking boulder.. who bolted that shit.. blah blah blah
you can still deck from the 2nd bolt.. they are really close together so sometimes they clip both (if you noticed he started with one clipped.. and im guessing clipped the 2nd before he fell once and just left it the hell alone.
if you see how much slack is out there is no way the rope is helping at all.. he hits the rock almost every time he falls..
another fine example of this from a photo comment:
In reply to: Good Dihedral, but bolted???. What a waste, what i see it can be natural secured...besides that, cool pic... --baigot
the guy is from fucking south america yet can tell a route takes gear from a photo taken 60+ meters away? and only 1/3 of the route at that wtf?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/photos/jump.cgi?Detailed=61092
so again.. if you think you can climb it more "pure" the fucking give me a PM and i'll belay
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thomasribiere
Apr 26, 2006, 1:40 PM
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Tony Lamiche is French so he cannot climb something clean.
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jcasper
Apr 26, 2006, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: people who have never touched the start holds should shut the hell up...
Last I was there those holds were so greasy and smooth from people touching them that I felt bad for anybody what wanted to actually climb the thing. Not to say I didn't touch them myself and have a little a daydream... very humbling. :) I guess it might not matter much to someone who can do the moves above.
As for the topic, I agree somewhat with both sides. I'm in awe of anybody that can pull themselves up that thing, I don't care if your on TR or even if your belayer is pulling you up it, that's dang impressive. On the other hand, it would be my guess from watching the video (whatever its worth) that clipping the second draw during the climb would be a notable step up. And certainly Kehl's ascent sans rope is quite an additional step up from that (although that too is just a guess because I have absolutely no idea what it's like to climb even close to that level).
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jakedatc
Apr 26, 2006, 5:51 PM
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definitely not smooth or greasy when i was there in march.. getting on isnt the hard part so no for the people getting on it for real arent going to be too worried..
im pretty sure Dave only stick clipped the first bolt for the FA.. same for sharma when he almost flashed it. but may have kept the 2nd clipped for the send..
for a route with only 4 sends people sure blow it off as something easy because it's short and forget how hard the 7 moves have to be for it to be .14d
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ambler
Apr 26, 2006, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: another fine example of this from a photo comment: In reply to: Good Dihedral, but bolted???. What a waste, what i see it can be natural secured...besides that, cool pic... the guy is from f---ing south america yet can tell a route takes gear from a photo taken 60+ meters away? and only 1/3 of the route at that wtf? http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=61092
Fixed pitons are no more "natural" than bolts, of course. But the route did take some removable gear.
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musicman1586
Apr 26, 2006, 6:47 PM
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So some star climber decided that it's not worth it to risk life and limb for one route, hell I'll give him praise for it personally, he both sent the route and is still alive and unharmed to go send some more routes of the same or harder level, good for him.
Oh and I agree with whoever else it was that expressed the opinion that sport climbing is about the moves, if you want to make a big issue of clipping protection, go get into trad climbing, where there really is a huge difference in leading a .14 and top roping a .14
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j_ung
Apr 26, 2006, 6:56 PM
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In reply to: people who have never touched the start holds should shut the hell up... :deadhorse: :boring: :boring:
Well now, hang on a sec. I've certainly never touched the start holds and will probably NEVER touch any of the other holds... But I'm pretty sure that If I pre-clipped every bolt on my project except for the anchor and then called it a redpoint, I'd get called on it.
Of course, there's a world different between me and my triffling projects and TL and the Fly. All I'm wondering is where's the line? At what point is it acceptable to TR 2/3 of a route and still call it a redpoint? .13d? .14a? Or does it have more to do with the height of the route?
IMO, this takes stick-clipping to an unreasonable level and Kehl's ascent is the only one that counts so far. Certainly, it counts more than all the others.
Of course, the real question is does this affect my climbing in any way, shape or form. And the answer is no, it doesn't. :)
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sidepull
Apr 26, 2006, 7:04 PM
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as usual, a relatively simple conversation devolves into a fight about multiple issues. I'll add to the fray.
Several previous posts have bemoaned the tendency for people to discuss the merits of certain accomplishments. For example, did Caldwell's fall on the nose make his attempt unfree, did Reardon really solo what he claims, or this one: did Lamiche just top rope the fly? I think it's perfectly legitimate and perhaps even the purpose of this type of site to ask such questions.
Style or ethics are a large part of climbing. Asking these questions doesn't inherently disparage the achievements of the climber, it simply clarifies what occured. Lamiche is trying to hide the style in which he climbed the fly - he allowed it to be videoed. By pinning down what happened we have a cleary picture of how history is being written and how ethics can be improved for those looking to push limits and seek the purest form of climbing. Kudos to Tony for his send. Kudos to Kehl for better style. Now, who's going to get the solo onsight?
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jakedatc
Apr 26, 2006, 7:50 PM
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larry what did FH go at in regards to pro rating PG 13? with pins in the corner and RP's in the "horizontal" and then what was above for the roof? is the bottom trad protectable too or were there pins
Jay.. Dave graham only preclipped the first bolt on his FA. so you dont consider his legit either? Kehl top roped the hell out of it first.. i give at least equal kudos to dave who figured out all the moves himself.. on lead. A well done and hard headpoint but it's not like he was bombing off it from the start. (oh and 5 ascents.. forgot luke parody.. not sure how he clipped it)
you can preclip all the bolts of your project if you want.. but you have to have your belay leave enough slack for you to hit the ground if you fall like tonys did.. and you have to go up the lead side of the rope.. not the cleaning side.. so have a lovely swing of maiming carnage if you fail
what about Tommy and beth getting equal credit for freeing the nose yet neither of them led all the pitches.. if you allow that then pre clipping a few draws is not a big deal.
landing for folks who haven't seen.. first bolt is the one with the draw on it.. the boulders underneath create a 4' or so pit under the start. then it drops off more than that if you fell off the start block on the outside (which i guess jason did on a few of his first solo attempts)
http://img.photobucket.com/...umney/3_11_06002.jpg
Sidepull.. **name drop warning** i was talking to my friend about who could get the onsite solo.. it's a very small crowd.. and even smaller that hasnt seen video. seen sends.. etc.. I don't think it will be done anytime in the moderate future. Ben moon has the mental stability for don't fall routes but i dont think he's strong enough to onsite v13.. Daniel woods might get strong enough but i think he's probably been on it or seen it, Fred nicole is damn strong.. he's on the list. so onsite maybe even better style but dont hold your breath.
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j_ung
Apr 26, 2006, 8:09 PM
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Ah, didn't realize Graham only clipped the first. I stand corrected then... on that count. But I still maintain that Kehl's is the most impressive ascent of the Fly to date. To tell the truth, though, I'm not anywhere near as impressed by anybodies' ascents of the Fly as I am their other sends. All five of them have more impressive feats to their credit, IMO.
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scrapper
Apr 26, 2006, 8:20 PM
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Sportclippers.
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alpine_monk
Apr 26, 2006, 8:37 PM
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I just watched the vid and I really don't see the diference between what he did and a TR. congrats on the REALLY hard TR to Tony.
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caughtinside
Apr 26, 2006, 8:51 PM
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This seems like a debate unique to the fly. It's very short, 2 or 3 bolts to the anchor.
Now normally, if you preclip 1 or 2 bolts on a sport route, you won't get a dispute from anyone who knows better about your redpoint. Why? Those are the bolts that keep you off the ground. But if the route is only 2 bolts long, you've TR'ed most of the route. Hmmm.
I think all this really does is expose yet another flaw in how we judge style. So now preclipping 2 bolts is cool*
*except when it's the Fly.
Our simple terms aren't simple. People will argue the meanings of:
Onsight
Flash
Send
Redpoint
Clean
The problem is that our simple terminology isn't accurate enough to convey the information about climbs that climbers seem to want.
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