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surfceo
Apr 28, 2006, 9:02 PM
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I visited valley of the moon recently and was working on a crimpy boulder problem that was obviously done prior to me many times. As I placed a toe edge in a little pocket it latterly started to open up. Amazed I realized the first 1/2" of surface could easily be burrowed into with the slightest of friction from my shoe! I bet the pocket was there simply because of previous climbers. I was very disappointed on how inviting everything looked, yet literally appeared to be falling apart.
To clarify - I am not interested in "inventing" new holds, ex. chipping (if someone wants to place holds, they should get a job at the gym)
Not wanting to disturb the natural order of things beyond reason (simply being there is disruptive), I have a couple Q's:
1. If the rock (granite) appears extremely loose and chossy does that imply it is going to be rotten to the core?
2. Feasibly, it there a point where it would solidify?
3. Is it unethical to carry a medium sized (bigger than a tooth brush) stiff bristled plastic brush to clean choss out of trad placements or prep a sport route? (I have heard of people scrubbing routes on rappel and assuming that is what they are up to.)
Note: I remember hearing the routes in J-tree are solid simply because they are climbed often. Does that mean they were otherwise quite chossy to begin with?
Climb safe!
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josephgdawson
Apr 28, 2006, 9:25 PM
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I think that since you are taking the time to ask if it is ok, whatever cleaning you decide to do with be ethical. I would say that pulling rotten rock off a route is a service to others.
The routes at Jtree that do not get much traffic are kinda grainy, meaning it feels liker there is a bit of a film of sand on them. You have to scratch at smeary holds with your foot like a bull to brush the loose shit off and check everything before you commit.
I do not think that rotten rock will solidfy, if anything it will get worse.
A friend and I did a nice crack in Tahoe that sees very little traffic, but it was kinda mangy and grainy inside the thing. I would not think twice about taking a brush of some sort to clean the thing up on rap if I went back.
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jabtocrag
Apr 28, 2006, 9:36 PM
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There's a video floating around showing two men "cleaning" a boulder for a FA. I can't find it, but the video was kind of disturbing to me. The cleaning was not remotely friendly to the surrounding ecosystem.
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12inchtick
Apr 28, 2006, 9:45 PM
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Actually I was just talking to a friend about this today. We were out boldering on real rock because we are manly men and there was this problem which looked like it would take some work, but before we could try it we would need to bring a pretty stiff brush to get rid of moss on the boulder.
Is this considered ethical? It's pretty mossy about 8 feet up there, but would probably only need 5 minutes with a stiff brush before it would be open to climbing. There are only small crimps, and moss just doesn't give much grip, so it wouldn't be possible without some cleaning.
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chossmonkey
Apr 28, 2006, 10:00 PM
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In reply to: 1. If the rock (granite) appears extremely loose and chossy does that imply it is going to be rotten to the core?
Not always but it could be. It really depends on how the rock forms.
J-Tree is a great place to look at. Have you ever noticed how some of the rocks there seem sculpted and hollowed out? This is because the rock that wasn't bonded as well eroded away much quicker than the harder stuff that is left.
In reply to: 2. Feasibly, it there a point where it would solidify?
You might be able to excavate out a route, but would it be worth the time and the visual impact? Let nature take its course, leave it for your grandchildren or great, great grandchildren.
In reply to: 3. Is it unethical to carry a medium sized (bigger than a tooth brush) stiff bristled plastic brush to clean choss out of trad placements or prep a sport route? (I have heard of people scrubbing routes on rappel and assuming that is what they are up to.)
No, but a brush won't do much but sweep the dirt away that may have accumulated. Your nut tool should work good for excavating the dirt out of nut placements on routes that are rarely traveled.
If you are doing a FA you are probably going to have to do a bit of cleaning. In some areas you need a crowbar and hammer to adequately clean the routes, in other areas you will be tarred and feathered if you tried cleaning that heavily. Find out what the local cleaning ethics are.
In reply to: Note: I remember hearing the routes in J-tree are solid simply because they are climbed often. Does that mean they were otherwise quite chossy to begin with?
The outer rock had a slight amount of exfoliation that had to be worn away. If people quit climbing the routes over time they would eventually get a little grainy again.
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dingus
Apr 28, 2006, 10:28 PM
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A few random comments:
I would NOT be cleaning up a boulder problem that has been 'previously climbed many times.' Yeah, in wetter climbs stuff grows back, but that's not what you were getting at.
Example: near here is a chossy bouldering area called Knights Ferry. The rock is old metavolcanic stuff, very friable in places. Its loose. We did a butt load of easy mods there neigh on 10 years ago. Some we cleaned up good, others we pushed through scary loose top outs and those finishes became part of the character of those problems.
I think its off route for subsequent parties to come scrape them down to safety (though simple foot traffic would eventually accomplish the same thing).
Its different if its your local area, you've been climbing there for years and are taking preventative care, imo. "Been meaning to fix this for years now...' I think there is a place for that too.
But I think it would be presumptuous of me to go to a new boulder/problem/area, do an established line and then declare 'choss' and start aggressively cleaning it.
Cheers
DMT
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chossmonkey
Apr 28, 2006, 10:50 PM
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In reply to: I would NOT be cleaning up a boulder problem that has been 'previously climbed many times.' Yeah, in wetter climbs stuff grows back, but that's not what you were getting at.
Good point Dingus.
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geobum
Apr 28, 2006, 10:50 PM
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moss and loose flakes that can collect and hold water against the rock's surface, increasing the rate of weathering/erosion. by cleaning the moss off and removing friable parts, you can actually protect the rock (not a lot, but the point is you surely aren't hurting it).
this is not to say going with a hammer and chisel is ethical, but simply taking a stiff brush to clean holds and removing pieces of rock that could break and possibly hurt someone, i see no harm in it.
it also depends on the kind of rock. some sandstone (cough michigan) you can brush all day until a crimp becomes a jug, others are like iron. just try to use your head and pretend you're doing the rock a favor.... and hopefully you'll know when you suddenly feel you might be doing a bit more than cleaning.
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epoch
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Apr 28, 2006, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: Actually I was just talking to a friend about this today. We were out boldering on real rock because we are manly men and there was this problem which looked like it would take some work, but before we could try it we would need to bring a pretty stiff brush to get rid of moss on the boulder. Is this considered ethical? It's pretty mossy about 8 feet up there, but would probably only need 5 minutes with a stiff brush before it would be open to climbing. There are only small crimps, and moss just doesn't give much grip, so it wouldn't be possible without some cleaning.
1) Why do bouldererererererererers always insist on trying to justify their existence as adults. You will always and forever bee seen as children in the climbing world. Get over it.
2) Ethics in the wilderness, I.E. 5 feet from the parking lot and beyond, are to leave things with as little human impact as possible. That said, in a sense cleaning a route would be unethical. Did the FA's of yester year head out to the crags with pressure washers, steel brushes, and brooms? I hardly think so. Removing foliage on the rock is damaging to the ecosystem of the environment of that boulder, crag face, epic face, ect. If you need to remove brush then you really shouldn't be climbing it. If you find yourself out on a climb at a crag or cliff face where there are a few loose rocks, and it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to remove them to keep the route and area SAFE then do so. Unnecessary removal of rock, shrubbage, foliage, moss, and debris only promotes erosion and the impact made by climbers.
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chossmonkey
Apr 28, 2006, 11:26 PM
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In reply to: Did the FA's of yester year head out to the crags with pressure washers, steel brushes, and brooms? I hardly think so.
Depends on what you consider yester year.
70's and 80's?
Yer damn right they cleaned and scrubbed and excavated dirt choked cracks.
And actually dirt in the cracks speeds up erosion. The dirt holds water, the water freezes and expands eventually widening the crack or loosening whole blocks.
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chitlinsconcarne
Apr 29, 2006, 12:22 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Did the FA's of yester year head out to the crags with pressure washers, steel brushes, and brooms? I hardly think so. Depends on what you consider yester year. 70's and 80's? Yer damn right they cleaned and scrubbed and excavated dirt choked cracks.
..and repeatedly placed and removed pins to create better jams, sawed cracks in blank walls, pounded on crystals to fabricate holds on slabs, tried to drag little wheeled carts up the big stone, burned up poison ivy with homemade flamethrowers, trundled everything that would make a satisfying impact, drank cheep likker and smoked the evil weed, lied about damn near everything, and wiggled our weewees at the tourists far below.
There, now its all out in the open.
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12inchtick
Apr 29, 2006, 12:30 AM
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Well, if ethics is leaving as little impact as possible, we probably shouldn't be climbing in the first place. But since this wouldn't suit our needs, it's okay if we only climb routes or problems which don't require cleaning. Maybe some of your favorite local climbs had to be cleaned before you even started climbing. It's worth a thought. Clean routes don't grow on trees, actually trees grow on them. I'm so clever.
I don't mean to sound insulting, but I dislike people who think their sport is the only real sport. I could turn around and tell you unless you're a big wall climber you're pathetic and will never be considered a real climber. If you never feel like leaving a gym then go ahead and do that. At least you're not another overweight, lazy american who never gets any exercise. Why do you care what somebody else likes to do? Keep telling me I'm not a real climber and I might just pick up your sport and kick your ass in it. It did sound like were slightly joking in your post, but that is something I can't stand, and I had to get it off my ripped chest and abs of steel.
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surfceo
May 1, 2006, 7:18 PM
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So - putting up new routes is commonly done with the rock being chossy- with the hopes it will solidify after a bunch of assents. Hmmm
It seems like on many 1'st assents (done on grainy rock) it would require some work to prep the route! The only exclusion i can think of is supper polished rock that is that way naturally.
No real info/resources on how to prep a route is out there?
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