|
|
|
|
madscientist
May 2, 2006, 3:22 AM
Post #101 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2002
Posts: 159
|
This discussion has turned into a classic ethics debate. I don't think this debate will ever be settled. However, the thread is about "ethics, new routes, and access" at Sam's Throne.
The classic arguments for and against bolting, head-pointing, ground up assents, etc. has been argued, but this is not the whole picture. At least when I was climbing there, Sam's Throne has been known as a traditional climbing area. Several people have also voiced the opinion that they enjoy doing routes in a style that would be ruined by bolts, and they very firmly believe this. Therefore, if rap bolting becomes common you will take away from the climbing experience for these people. It should not matter if you understand, just respect others opinions. This is the main reason I believe that bolts should be placed sparingly at Sam's Throne. There would be serious problems with this argument if there were not sport climbing areas nearby, but there are sport climbing areas.
Now for some more focused responses.
In most areas, the ethics of the area are not dictated by the majority, but rather by the people with the strongest personalities and the strongest opinions. It only takes one person to bolt a line and one person to remove a line. The majority of the climbers, in most areas, do not participate in any of the ethics debates, new route development, and they don't care to participate. This is probably true at Sam's Throne, but I have not climbed there for many years so I am not sure.
With that being said, it is not always a good idea to give a simple majority the power to make any decision they want. In the case of governments, the problem is that 51% of the people can infringe on the rights of 49% of the people, which causes large scale conflict. In my opinion, even if the majority of climbers wanted Sam's to become a sport climbing destination, I believe it would still be a bad idea. There would be conflict. Thus, my question is "Is there any need to add sport climbs to Sam's Throne?". I think we all know that there is no real need for sport climbs at Sam's with the many opportunities for sport climbing nearby. If you do not add sport climbs, you are doing a service for a portion of the climbing community, and I for one thank you.
About replacing hardware. Bad bolts should be replaced. The recent accidents at Cave Creek has made this issue very apparent. I cannot spend the time to go there and do this myself, but I can add a little to the monetary problem. If anyone out there is serious, and money is the only problem, send me a PM and I may help.
|
|
|
|
|
jer
May 2, 2006, 3:30 AM
Post #102 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2000
Posts: 426
|
MF-
Traditional areas do not mean "no bolts", they mean "minimal bolts" or bolts ONLY where absolutely necessary.
By it's very nature, Arkansas rock is best protected by the random bolt. Sadly, there are very few splitters around, and even the best gear protected faces often need a bolt or two to be sane.
I have placed a number of bolts at Sams. Always from the ground, often on stances, and yes sometimes on aid. Because that is the local "game". Because that is the local tradition. Bolts are not taboo at Sams, gridbolting and appeasing the masses is.
I agree that sport routes are best done top down-I have "created" over 100 in this manner(as has just about everyone else in this conversation by the way; you are not the only one with a trigger finger).
The reason they are discouraged at Sams is because it is so easy. If it was the local "standard"- all the cherry lines would have been plucked long ago by Tony, Clay, Tom, Sean, Chris, the other Tony, Bob, Ben and yeah, Me. No one could resist the line next to Coup D'etat. It's a no brainer. Karpowitz put it on the line on the wall in the 80's. It still awaits the next pur expression; the next level. His route being bolted is a step in reverse.
I get the feeling you are asking questions you know the answer to.
The fight for sport routes at Sams comes and goes every few years. I don't understand your persistance for this one single crag. Is it the fact that you can't have it that makes you want it that much more? There is so much to do in the state!
FWIW, I am not against a handful of four star (not filler) sport routes at Sams. I like showing up every once in awhile with just a rack of draws.
Yes, it makes "sense" to rap bolt these lines, but the historic challenge of ground up ascents is not supposed to make "sense"- it's ludicrous, it's insanity, it's archaic. But that is what makes it so special; so unique, and something worth fighting for. It's a big state. This is one crag. The bolts have already been removed.
-jer
|
|
|
|
|
jer
May 2, 2006, 3:34 AM
Post #103 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2000
Posts: 426
|
MF-
Traditional areas do not mean "no bolts", they mean "minimal bolts" or bolts ONLY where absolutely necessary.
By it's very nature, Arkansas rock is best protected by the random bolt. Sadly, there are very few splitters around, and even the best gear protected faces often need a bolt or two to be sane.
I have placed a number of bolts at Sams. Always from the ground, often on stances, and yes sometimes on aid. Because that is the local "game". Because that is the local tradition. Bolts are not taboo at Sams, gridbolting and appeasing the masses is.
I agree that sport routes are best done top down-I have "created" over 100 in this manner(as has just about everyone else in this conversation by the way; you are not the only one with a trigger finger).
The reason they are discouraged at Sams is because it is so easy. If it was the local "standard"- all the cherry lines would have been plucked long ago by Tony, Clay, Tom, Sean, Chris, the other Tony, Bob, Ben and yeah, Me. No one could resist the line next to Coup D'etat. It's a no brainer. Karpowitz put it on the line on the wall in the 80's. It still awaits the next pur expression; the next level. His route being bolted is a step in reverse.
I get the feeling you are asking questions you know the answer to.
The fight for sport routes at Sams comes and goes every few years. I don't understand your persistance for this one single crag. Is it the fact that you can't have it that makes you want it that much more? There is so much to do in the state!
FWIW, I am not against a handful of four star (not filler) sport routes at Sams. I like showing up every once in awhile with just a rack of draws.
Yes, it makes "sense" to rap bolt these lines, but the historic challenge of ground up ascents is not supposed to make "sense"- it's ludicrous, it's insanity, it's archaic. But that is what makes it so special; so unique, and something worth fighting for. It's a big state. This is one crag. The bolts have already been removed.
-jer
|
|
|
|
|
yankee
May 2, 2006, 5:04 AM
Post #104 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 13
|
crankmarklar,
Just wondering if you have ever placed any fixed pro at Sam's or the areas around Sam's?
Also, still wondering how you would classify Rock Climbing? Since I am so lame calling it a recreational activity.
Jer wrote:FWIW, I am not against a handful of four star (not filler) sport routes at Sams. I like showing up every once in awhile with just a rack of draws
Just wondering, where those routes should be and who should get to bolt them? Sorry Jer, but you just opened up a can of worms with this statement.
|
|
|
|
|
crankmarklar
May 2, 2006, 10:47 AM
Post #105 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2004
Posts: 48
|
Yank,
I have never placed fixed gear (bolts) at Sam's. I have placed fixed gear in other areas.
Sounds like you want to argue about any and everything being said that does not directly pertain to the issue. I tell you what... I climb down at Sam's and the surrounding areas a lot so if won't be hard to find me. We can sit around the camp fire and shoot the sh** about how I classify climbing, ethics, bolting etc. You can PM me and we can get together, bring Madflash along and the guy who added the bolts to Coup de Gra Chris French.
|
|
|
|
|
jer
May 2, 2006, 12:27 PM
Post #106 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2000
Posts: 426
|
Yank-
It's a good question, and one I ask myself- How much is "too much"? Who decides?
It's a circular conversation, that always leads back to well- one is too much, because if ANY have been developed, then why not grid bolt the whole place? But I think we can all agree this is not logical either.
Sams already has a number of fantastic sport climbs- Euthanasia, Cosmos, Dead Dog, Black Thunder, Ode to Portly, Spank Me, Cling to Evil, Water into Wine, Crater Face, Bear Bait etc etc..
This is what I meant by "identity crisis".
Sams doesn't know what it is.
The sport routes that already exist are well spaced, not squeezed together. They seem to "fit" for the most part.
Many were developed on lead, and those that weren't, were done with no fanfare, no internet forum, they weren't "squeeze jobs" and weren't created during a busy weekend- they were created in silence.
Maintaining the ground up tradition(or the- "don't gridbolt every single blank face tradition") is the means by which the crag is limited in it's sport routes. Thus far this has successfully kept the place both in limbo, and in harmony. If this style was EASY, everyone would do it. Because it isn't- sport routes go in slowly, and thoughtfully.
Eldorado Canyon has a group of individuals acting as a governing body who decide when, where, and what bolts go in by whom. I think this is BS as well, and don't think we need a committee to decide who gets to put what routes where.
I say that I am "not against sport routes at Sams", meaning, I am not against what has already been developed, and I am not against individuals careyfully picking UNCLIMBED beautiful lines, in keeping with the local style. [Yes, I know, who decides what is "beautiful"?]
Pretty much anywhere in Arkansas, one can tie off to a tree, rap over the edge, start drilling and have a route 5.12 or under. You know this is as well as I do!
But to me, Sams seems to be more than that. A place where mystery, tradition, artistic expression, and vision still seem to have their place.
A one mile drive brings you to Valley of the Blind. Another mile further is Cave Creek- both places where rap-bolted routes, cracks, and mixed faces sit side by side. This is great! I appreciate this style.
That one mile makes all the difference...Sams is different. Sams is a mental shift. Sams is slower than our motivations. Sams asks for brilliance, not batteries; patience, not power.
-jer
|
|
|
|
|
gordo
May 2, 2006, 1:59 PM
Post #107 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2005
Posts: 111
|
In reply to: Sams is different. Sams is a mental shift. Sams is slower than our motivations. Sams asks for brilliance, not batteries; patience, not power. -jer
Nuff said...let it go guys.
|
|
|
|
|
yankee
May 2, 2006, 3:15 PM
Post #108 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 13
|
jer wrote:
In reply to: It's a circular conversation, that always leads back to well- one is too much, because if ANY have been developed, then why not grid bolt the whole place? But I think we can all agree this is not logical either. Sams already has a number of fantastic sport climbs- Euthanasia, Cosmos, Dead Dog, Black Thunder, Ode to Portly, Spank Me, Cling to Evil, Water into Wine, Crater Face, Bear Bait etc etc.. This is what I meant by "identity crisis". Sams doesn't know what it is.
That's exactly the problem with Sam's. I have been to many areas (Devils Lake, Palisades in upper MN, Gunk's etc..) that have no bolts. It's simple, you just do not bolt, cause if you do, you get strung up by your balls by the locals. I think those areas are great, you either TR, or do the routes on natural pro, there is not one bolt here one bolt there, its just all natural. Those rules (ie..ethics) are easy to live with.
Sam's on the other hand has natural lines, has mixed lines, and has sport routes. Some routes have been done from the ground up, some been rap bolted.
There is two ways to resolve the issue,
One, we should remove all fixed hardware, then the rules are simple, you do it with natural pro or you top rope.
or
We respect all FA's styles, If you expect people to respect the FA's ground up bolt on lead, you need to respect the FA's rap bolted line.
|
|
|
|
|
golsen
May 2, 2006, 3:45 PM
Post #109 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
|
Well said jer. I am glad you locals are speaking up here. I have said my piece but I will try and respond to some of yankee's questions.
In reply to: So you have no problem with bolts placed on lead? Gary, I am guessing your name is Gary from the last post I read, Sounds like you have placed some fixed gear at Sam's. One, just wondering if you place that gear on lead (which I am sure you did). And also if you placed fixed gear, why did you think it was right to do so at such a pristine Traditional Area? Sounds like there should be no bolts at Sams. If you never placed any fixed gear disregard these ?'s Just one more thing I would really like to hear your rules(ie..ethics) on my FA's question.
I agree with jer about some bolts being placed on lead. There are no absolutes because anyone with a drill could place a bolt ladder on lead up a beautiful face and to me that is worse than a well done sport route.
As far as placing bolts in such a pristine traditional area?. I hate the word trad. Why? I started climbing in the 70's in Little Cottonwood Canyon Utah. Granite slab country. We bolted ground up and on lead. Many folks dont consider this traditional but it sure is traditional at areas like Tuolumne, Quartz Mtn, and LCC as well as other areas. There is something much more exciting about starting a climb ground up and not knowing the outcome, not knowing what pro you will have and not knowing the rating. This type of experience is one that you will only find on a ground up FA. The challenge then is not just the individual moves but the WHOLE package. Hanging off hooks to bolt on lead is also pretty exciting. The point is that a few bolts placed off hooks or on lead dont mean that the area is now a sport area.
I have not placed any bolts at Sam's Proper or on the main Bluff. I did a few sport routes at Cave Creek and I did do one in the Outback way back in 1993 or so. That route is called Spank Me and if it is causing any confusion about what is or is not proper at Sam's then let me know because I would be happy to remove it if that is what the consensus is. At the time, I had tried Clay's route Euthanasia in the Outback and I was pretty sure it was rapp bolted but I never asked him about it (I assumed it was because it was freakin hard and I had a hard time even clipping but Clay could have done it on lead). Anyway, I TRed the route alone, bolted it alone and my wife belayed me on the redpoint. I anchored her to a tree and my 2 year old son was running around giving her grief tellin her "you can't Spank me." Smart kid knew she was busy...Had I been able to look into the future and seen something like this happening I never would have bolted that route.
Oh yeah, since this is confessional time I have another one. I did probably the first bolted face route on Wallstreet near Moab in 1983. A 5.11c R sandstone slab. That is an area that in my opinion was overdone and went the wrong way with too many climbs. And I hear there that all the bolts were placed on lead. I regret being a part of that area's bolted climbs development.
The point is that all rock is a resource and it is my belief that not all of it needs to be bolted nor even climbed. You locals will have to figure out what's right and acceptable. Good Luck.
|
|
|
|
|
madflash
May 2, 2006, 3:47 PM
Post #110 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 77
|
Crankmarklar wrote
In reply to: Cut to the chase you want to grid bolt Sam's and turn it into a HCR.
That isn't my intention at all man. First of all, I don't have the time or money, much less the motivation. Hey man I am a poor college kid. Yeah, I go to Sam's pretty regularly, and hopefully will be going back. I bolted one route there, on rap, that's true. I didn't grid bolt anything...too expensive. I put up one sport route hundreds of yards away from any other EXISTING sport routes at Sam's. Have you even climbed it? Maybe you should try it before you knock it. Just a suggestion.
I have climbed on some of your bolt protected routes. And you know what, they are f*cking awsome. Some of the best lines around. Thanks for putting the time and energy to put them up. Many of us sport climbers appreciate them.
Jer wrote
In reply to: I am not against a handful of four star (not filler) sport routes at Sams.
Well, we're not gonna disagree on that one. That's pretty much all I want to put up is four star routes. You are right there are plenty of other filler routes at Cave Creek and other areas. If it makes you guys feel better, if I bolt any other routes at Sam's I will do it on the lead. I will probably be cussing and spitting the whole time, but if that's the hoops I have to jump through to put up a killer line, so be it. I expect not to hear any shit for it either. Hows that for compromise?
|
|
|
|
|
leinosaur
May 2, 2006, 4:11 PM
Post #111 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 690
|
In reply to: Yes, it makes "sense" to rap bolt these lines, but the historic challenge of ground up ascents is not supposed to make "sense"- it's ludicrous, it's insanity, it's archaic. But that is what makes it so special; so unique, and something worth fighting for. It's a big state. This is one crag. The bolts have already been removed. -jer |
|
|
|
|
therealbovine
May 3, 2006, 8:25 PM
Post #112 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 270
|
madflash wrote:
In reply to: if I bolt any other routes at Sam's I will do it on the lead. I will probably be cussing and spitting the whole time, but if that's the hoops I have to jump through to put up a killer line, so be it.
Seven pages of ranting and you're figuring it out. Congrats...
|
|
|
|
|
beny
May 4, 2006, 3:42 PM
Post #113 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2005
Posts: 40
|
saddle up, this could be a long one. i just returned from sams last night and have a few more comments to add. i'll address them based on the subject title.
ethics:
madlfash, i'd be thrilled if you started doing your routes ground up. but that's not all- minimal fixed hardware needs to be used. here's the deal. even though we all feel like we have an unlimited resource with arkie rock, we don't. eventually, there will be no new rock left. that is why i think style should always be improved upon, not just maintained. just because a few wayward souls have rapbolted a handful of routes around sams doesn't mean that it should be further tolerated. we should strive to maintain the highest ethical standards possible and create the highest quality routes. i'll discuss this further, later on.
your comment about blown-out flakes and poor bolt placement baffles me. i have yet to see blown-out flakes around sams from hooks. what routes are these on? i have placed bolts from hooks and have never had this problem at sams. i would suggest that you find a couple cam hooks, and a bd grappling hook. that's worked great for me. also, someone who is unable to place bolts on lead, in the right position, has no place to be bolting. this is really a problem with the climber, not the method of ascent. the place where i see the most poorly placed bolts is hcr- the rap bolting haven. why is this? i think its because there was such a hurried mentality with the rapbolting frenzy that too much emphasis was placed on quantity and speed, rather than quality. i fear this will occur at sams as well, if rap bolting is embraced.
new-routes:
new routes is really what this is all about. i have yet to see anyone on here disagree with madlfash about replacing old hardware. but has a single bolt been replaced yet? nope. just putting new ones in. and in fact, more crap hardware has been placed in the rock in the past 3 weeks. i removed the retro-bolts from coup de grace yesterday. guess what i found? they were 3/8 x 2.5". what a bunch of crap. i'd never seen 5-piece bolts so short in the midwest. is this arkansas's idea of improving hardware? what exactly do you think is in the rock, drywall screws? to your credit, the anchors were longer, probably 3.5". this is unacceptable because it was an established line, it was rap bolted, and because the gear was junk. i would wager that the bolts used on the sport route right of coup de etat were also of the crappy variety.
really, no new routes have been done yet. this has all been retro work. "are the dead alive now, no" was a tr route. "easy way out" was a classic lead. "coup de grace" was a ground up, trad lead. and the "new" sport route just right of coup de etat is really just a 4 bolt variation start to coup de etat. i can say that because i climbed it. the fifth and sixth bolts are within a couple feet of the crack. that route is nothing but a disgrace to the wall. its unfortunate because it could have been done (and safely) in true sams style- ground up, minimal fixed gear. its also unfortunate that in a wall of bold, but safe, ground up routes- paternal instinct, pumpy love, coup de grace, coup de etat, this line had to go against the grain. it could have been a climactic and thrilling addition to the wall, now its just another sport route. ho hum. there will be no one that walks by, staring at it, wondering what other routes they need to do first before they're sure they'll be up for the challenge of route finding, hanging out to place the bomber gear, choosing holds carefully to prevent breaking flakes or grabbing a dubious sloper. no longer will it be necessary to put in time on other routes to build up for what could have been an incredible experience, much like onsighting coup de etat, pumpy love, or coup de grace is. even my sport climber, first-time-to-sams, partner yesterday said, "wow, that sure is a beautiful wall. but all those bolts are ugly." he followed me up a bunch of routes- many were heady face routes with good gear for those willing to hang out and place it, but he also followed this one. he was disappointed with it and astutely noted how much more intimate the natural routes felt.
access:
the only land owner in missouri-illinois-arkie that has turned me down for climbing privileges on their property is yankee.
i observed a real access threat descending the ramp yesterday. it was a ledged-out, quasi-local resident that could no longer go up or down. what would he have done had we not walked by. could he have survived on that ledge til the masses showed up on friday night? we'll never know.
and a final note to mike: i'm glad you're re-embracing sams again. its a magical place. congrats on the first 80% of the routes. look forward to the next 20. if you're like me, you saved the most rewarding (ie- difficult, heady, adventurous) routes for the end. the final 20% are some of my most cherished memories from the area. here's to a lifetime of adventures in the natural state.
-ben
|
|
|
|
|
madflash
May 4, 2006, 7:10 PM
Post #114 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 77
|
I am sorry to hear about that Ben. Shorty bolts on those routes is lame. I am pretty sure they were 1/2" though, but I could be wrong. by the way did you epoxy the holes. If not I will next time I go there. I will also paint my hangers on "Are the Dead Alive Now". I meant to do that but didn't have the paint last time. Also I used 1/2" by 3 and 3/4" on that route and on the anchors to Second Hand Hero, I also need to paint those.
I understand that some people don't want to go to Sam's this fall and find a new Horseshoe Canyon there. Yeah many of the routes at Horseshoe are a little much ( no offense to the FA), still lots of people climb them...Many of the routes at Cave Creek could fall into that category as well. You are right that very few bolts have been replaced. i know that I haven't replaced any...yet. that is mostly due to shortage of funds. I am working on that as I type though.
As far as minimal fixed hardware used on routes, that is not to be dictated by any one man. How do you define minimal...everything goes on gear. Its called free solo. If rock is such a valuable commodity why is land with rock on it so worthless to everyone except rockclimbers. If it is such a valuable commodity then we probably shouldn't be climbing on it. we should put up signs that say WOW VALUABLE COMMODITY HERE, PLEASE DON'T TOUCH. however, we are rock climbers above all things. We climb on rocks. Its how it goes...
Also style varies from place to place and person to person. Just because you climb at Horseshoe doesn't make you a sport climber. I know people that go there just for the cracks alone. It seems contrived to say, "wait a minute sport climbing is allowed at Sam's, just not on this quarter mile section. but if you walk around the corner its okay to do whatever you want.
you are right about only putting up good high quality routes. I don't intend on wasting my time putting up junk...there's already plenty of that out there. I am sorry that the face right of Coup D etat was ruined for you, but at the same time it was opened for someone else...its a give and take thing. My honest opinion doesn't mean shit, but if you want it, pick the lines you want to be ground up gear only type and do them, do them in your style and make yourself happy. Maybe even make someone else happy to, but it seems a little silly to get pissed that someone came in and snagged "your" route...especially if you haven't climbed it yet.
that being said, best of luck, and I hope to see you out at the crack.
P.S. - I am sure that if you asked yankee nicely he would be more than honered to let you climb on his land.
|
|
|
|
|
therealbovine
May 4, 2006, 8:36 PM
Post #115 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 270
|
madflash wrote:
In reply to: As far as minimal fixed hardware used on routes, that is not to be dictated by any one man. How do you define minimal...everything goes on gear. Its called free solo.
I would recommend that you purchase one of John Longs many books on rock climbing. Definitions to many terms such as ethics and free solo can be found within. You just don't seem to get it. Here's some insight for you; Free Solo means without gear, not "on gear". Minimal means don't place fixed gear where there are possibilities for natural protection, or within a safe distance of said protection. There is absolutely no need to put in a bolt ladder so you can climb a route when someone with more experience can climb it safely without, be it now or in the future. This ideology has not been dictated by one man, but many - who still value experience and minimal impact to the environment.
|
|
|
|
|
yankee
May 5, 2006, 2:54 AM
Post #116 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 13
|
In reply to: madflash wrote: Quote: I am pretty sure they were 1/2" though, but I could be wrong. beny just told you he pulled them, and that they were 3/8", so yes, once again, you could be wrong?
Beny,
I wasn't there when the bolts went in and a I wasn't there when they were removed. But I am guessing that they were Rawl(Power now) 1/2 x 3 3/4 5 piece expansion bolt. If they were wedge anchors you wouldn't have been able to remove the bolt you would have had to hopefully drive the bolt in all the way flush with the rock. Since you say you removed the bolt it was probably a Rawl. Now, the bolt its self is only 3/8, but there is also a sleeve that goes over that bolt which makes it a 1/2 bolt. A 1/2 x 3 3/4 5 piece expansion bolt is the best bolt you can use for sandstone other than a SS glue-in.
Now, to check the length of the bolt, just put it up next to your dick and if
the bolt is longer, it was most likely a 3 3/4" bolt.
Just joking, I couldn't resist :) Honestly, I am just having fun! To, me this is all just silliness.
In reply to: the only land owner in missouri-illinois-arkie that has turned me down for climbing privileges on their property is yankee.
I don't recall turning down anyone to climb over at my place(but maybe I thought you were a jerk....just kidding again), I do have a very sensitive access issue with my neighbor,which I protect with an Iron Fist, but you can ask anyone on this forum I am pretty reasonable. As a matter of fact some of the hardest cracks in arkie are in my backyard. And I have done them all, except for Stay Hungry Roof 12c, which I am saving for an on-sight, just seems when I am in shape I am to busy sport climbing and never get a round to it.
I wrote:
In reply to: There is two ways to resolve the issue, One, we should remove all fixed hardware, then the rules are simple, you do it with natural pro or you top rope. or We respect all FA's styles, If you expect people to respect the FA's ground up bolt on lead, you need to respect the FA's rap bolted line.
I say lets just remove all the bolts, that way there is no ?, You bolt you get strung up by your balls!
|
|
|
|
|
therealbovine
May 5, 2006, 1:36 PM
Post #117 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 270
|
FYI
In reply to: Traditional Climbing - Ascending rock from the ground up, using leader-placed protection (including cams, nuts, slings, etc.) for security which is removed after the climb, leaving no trace of passage. Without the safety and convenience of drilled bolts installed by others, the leader is responsible for managing his own protection system as he ascends the rock. In a broader context, traditional climbing also represents a closely-held set of values and ethics with specific importance placed upon adventure and self-sufficiency, style of ascent, respect for nature and all its inhabitants, and opposition to the destruction of adventure through artificial modification of the natural world.
In reply to: Sport Climbing - A type of climbing done on routes that have been prepared in advance by installation of multiple, permanent, closely spaced protection bolts drilled into the rock. The leader is required to place no protective gear since the route is set up for maximum security and convenience, allowing the climber to focus on gymnastic movement instead of managing his safety. Sometimes considered the opposite of Trad Climbing and viewed by some as a lesser form of vertical endeavor, due to the minimization of adventure and lack of traditional skills required. In fact the two genres can complement and coexist provided traditional routes are not "reduced" to sport climbs being bolted.
Taken from the glossary of a climbing guide...
Sams Throne has always been a Traditional Area.
|
|
|
|
|
beny
May 5, 2006, 2:10 PM
Post #118 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2005
Posts: 40
|
an apology is in order. i messed up the diameter of the bolts i removed from coup de grace. i was thinking 1/2", but typed 3/8". i think i got a little ahead of myself when typing because i was thinking about the bolt length more than the diameter. so, madlfash is right, as is yankee. the bolt diameter was 1/2". i regret the error and the confusion it caused. please lay off madflash, the mistake was my own. however, the point i was trying to make remains true- the length of the bolt was far too short to be used in arkie rock. if chris french's sport route right of coup de etat stays (and i assume the bolts for both routes were the same specs), the bolts will most definately have to be replaced. it seems that in an effort to beef up fixed pro, more work has been created for you, madflash. oh, and for yankee, the bolts were powers 5-piece. i pulled the bolt, sleeve, and blue compression sleeve. the holes remain without epoxy b/c when i pulled the route, i feared the bolts would be replaced within a week and i don't want new holes to be drilled, turning that wall into swiss cheese. thankfully, my conversation with chris french (is it chris or kris?) yesterday was productive and he assured me that he would not be replacing the bolts on that route as it is an established route and he will not be retrobolting established routes anymore. so, long story short, i will clean up the holes next time i'm down, unless someone beats me to it.
madflash, i agree with you on many points. i'm thrilled to hear that the gear you used was up to par. bravo. i like that you've committed to not retrobolting established routes and that you'll be bolting ground up. you'll have many adventures coming your way. but i do want to clear up what i meant by minimal gear on the sport route right of coup de etat. i'm in a lucky position because i've climbed it, and i'm not sure about anyone else on here. so lets go bolt to bolt and i'll describe other gear opportunities.
bolt 1- 1.5 feet below, just below the prominent horizontal was a decent 2" piece. i wouldn't call it a1, so maybe the bolt was needed. maybe not, after all, the bolt is only 10 ft up.
bolt 2- 3 ft higher than the first bolt was this one, just above some good holds formed by chicken heads. left of the seam/crack was a great horizontal- it took a red metolius or tricam
bolt 3- i like this one. i couldn't find any pro around it.
bolt 4- this is just left of a short, vertical crack with an a1 nut and cam placement. no need for it.
bolt 5, 6- both of these bolts were within a couple feet of coup de etat. chris tells me the crack is off, but why not just reach over and plug a few pieces in the crack? you don't have to put your fingers in it.
so to me, because of the ample gear choices, minimal gear would have been 1-2 bolts, painted and well- hidden. and i think that would have been reasonable for all others. the placements i mentioned were all typical sams-type pro. pretty standard fare for the face routes down there- which, to me, is what reasonable routes should be compared to. it all comes back to precedence. and the gear placements were nothing out of the ordinary for the area. i have never considered that route "mine", or anyone else's. i didn't mean to put forth that idea. but i am serious when i say it diminishes character from that corner.
in other news, chris french and i talked via phone yesterday. we disagreed on many things, but were able to agree on two points: one, sams is a great place; and two, adding fixed gear to previously established routes is unacceptable. thankfully, everyone else (i think) on this site has agreed to that as well. one point that should be publicly known is that chris and i disagree on what standard of fixed gear should be used. he maintained that length was not a compromising factor for the bolts, but diameter was most important. so if you get on something new down there, and its not madflash's route, the bolts may be way short. jsut something to think about this time of year when the rock is saturated.
that's all i've got. happy climbs
ben
|
|
|
|
|
yankee
May 5, 2006, 2:16 PM
Post #119 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 13
|
In reply to: Ascending rock from the ground up, using leader-placed protection (including cams, nuts, slings, etc.) for security which is removed after the climb, leaving no trace of passage. Without the safety and convenience of drilled bolts installed by others, the leader is responsible for managing his own protection system as he ascends the rock.
That's what I am talking about, lets remove all the bolts from Sams and make it a Traditional Area, like Devils Lake, WI
In reply to: Taken from the glossary of a climbing guide...
From which guide to you get this from, these must be the rules Golsen was talk-en about.
|
|
|
|
|
beny
May 5, 2006, 2:25 PM
Post #120 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2005
Posts: 40
|
oh yeah, i forgot something. in response to yankee, i would go with the no-bolts thing at sams. it might work better if it was a "starting now" type of thing. but if everyone got on board, i'd be the first to remove the 5 bolts i've placed at sams. so i can go with yankee on this one. it would actually make new routes a lot easier down there. never again would i have to stand at the base, looking up, wondering if that high horizontal is going to give me the gear i want or if i should have the drill on standby. bolts are expensive and that drill is heavy.
-ben
|
|
|
|
|
yankee
May 5, 2006, 2:31 PM
Post #121 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 13
|
lets get some more people on board and we can start chopping this weekend
|
|
|
|
|
beny
May 5, 2006, 2:42 PM
Post #122 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2005
Posts: 40
|
so you were "just kidding" about the no bolts suggestion?
|
|
|
|
|
therealbovine
May 5, 2006, 3:21 PM
Post #123 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 270
|
beny,
In response to your comment about bolt size; I agree that the length is key when we are talking about the sandstone in the Sam's areas. 3/8" x 3 1/2" Rawl 5-piece are more than bomber (though 1/2" is better). The nice thing about starting with a 3/8" size is that some day, when the bolt needs to be replaced, just as all bolts at some time will need replacement, you can re-use the existing hole, enlarge it and place a 1/2" bolt rather than drill a new hole.
At Cave Creek, a climber was injured recently. The injury was a result of rock failure surrounding a bolt placement. The rock literally blew-out around the bolt. The bolt did not fail, but the rock. If the bolt were longer, the compression is happening deeper into the rock, which seems to me like it would be less likely to cause the rock to fail around it. More rock=stronger placement.
Chris's comment about glue-in's holds true. Glue-ins are far superior if placed correctly. However at a traditional ground-up area, they won't do you any immediate good if placed on lead... So unless they are used for bolt replacement only, they are unrealistic for the Sam's Throne area. Even the rawl 5-piece are hard to place on lead, since they have to be hammered into the hole. Doing this while at a difficult stance is crazy-hard. I think this is another reason that a lot of the existing bolts are not up to todays standard, and need replacing.
|
|
|
|
|
therealbovine
May 5, 2006, 3:51 PM
Post #124 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 270
|
Yankee Wrote:
In reply to: lets get some more people on board and we can start chopping this weekend
Yeah! Lets start at that new area over by Busbee and HCR!!!
|
|
|
|
|
yankee
May 5, 2006, 4:34 PM
Post #125 of 144
(12021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 13
|
yeah, the problem with that stuff, is that it's private property, and we would probably get a shot gun in our face or get arrested for trespassing
|
|
|
|
|
|
