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far_east_climber
May 4, 2006, 7:37 AM
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I'm in a Uni. club and alot of the club consists of begginers, many of whom have or will soon be going on their first trad leads. I was wondering what some things are that you teach and stress in order to incease their understanding and safety within trad climbing?
Question might be abit vague, but for example, when teaching someone how to make basic anchors I have always done so with a cordelette as I've found it to be a very efficient and intuitive tool that seems to compliment the basic understanding of a begginers knowledge on anchor principles and physics. Also, things like placing gear on top rope.
Also, what are some of the hurdles you find begginers have to over come in trad climbing, such as learning to trust your placements?
Any of your advice and experience would be of great help (especially to the fledgling leaders!)
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superbum
May 4, 2006, 7:48 AM
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IN my opinion good advice would be to make them learn w/ an all passive rack first. This is how I started trad climbing and am very glad I did. It really makes you study the rock more and really hunt for the best placements. Once a person can place bomber hexes and nuts, give them a cam and they should have no troubles
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far_east_climber
May 4, 2006, 7:55 AM
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Oh yah, definately agree. I find that begginers often find it more difficult to remove cams than passive gear, also seem to trust passive gear more as well...
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kricir
May 4, 2006, 8:34 AM
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Staying organized and keeping your ropes well managed is one of the hardest things to do while trad climbing. Being well organized makes the climbing go faster and more efficiently, and it helps put the mind at ease. Have a logical system for racking, belay transitions, and rope management and practice it several times over before leaving the ground. Then all one has to do is place good pro and it should all go smoothly.
I agree with the all passive idea, though it may not be possible or practical depending on the routes. Nothings more bomber then a hex or tricam in a perfect slot. Except maybe a tree.
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duncan_s
May 4, 2006, 10:01 AM
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One method I've used before is setting up a top rope and keeping it slack on the lead climber. I get another novice to belay them like they where on the lead, giving lead belay practice.
I hear what your saying about the cordallette, but I think you would be better showing them the standard method of equalising eveything on a krab attached to the loop on your fig 8/bowline.
Also important to stress is "what is stopping me hitting the ground". Get them to put lots of gear and don't let them think they are safe when they get to the top, make sure they get a piece of gear in.
Also it being a uni club, do you have liability insurance and what arrangement do you have with them about teaching? Sadly worth bearing in mind in this day and age.
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patto
May 4, 2006, 10:01 AM
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I agree with the cordalette suggestion and the use of passive gear only. Preferably pick a single pitch climb with a nice ledge so you can walk/climb up and inspect their anchor.
Naturally you should let them play with gear placements on the ground or on boulders before you let them climb. Furthermore get them to setup up an anchor at head height and then have the hang on it in their harness. It is good to play with the gear and preferably hang on some, it gives them confidence.
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duncan_s
May 4, 2006, 10:04 AM
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In reply to: I It is good to play with the gear and preferably hang on some, it gives them confidence.
Not to much! It's not that good a habit to get into if you are trad leading.
Agree about only passive pro, it should not be a problem on easy routes, if you can't find it most the time, you are not looking hard enough. Very glad did my first 9 months leading without cams, it makes you think about everything more and appreciate them when you get them!
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patto
May 4, 2006, 10:24 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I It is good to play with the gear and preferably hang on some, it gives them confidence. Not to much! It's not that good a habit to get into if you are trad leading.
I agree hanging on gear is bad form.
I meant hang on some while you on the ground. Set up an achor at head height from the ground and hang on it.
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duncan_s
May 4, 2006, 10:39 AM
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More then bad form, it can be bloody dangerous! Understood what you meant, but maybe if doing it, suggest a warning about doing when 50 foot up?
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reg
May 4, 2006, 12:54 PM
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In reply to: I'm in a Uni. club and alot of the club consists of begginers, many of whom have or will soon be going on their first trad leads.
In reply to: when teaching someone how to make basic anchors I have always done so with a cordelette as I've found it to be a very efficient and intuitive tool that seems to compliment the basic understanding of a begginers knowledge on anchor principles and physics.
In reply to: Also, things like placing gear on top rope.
In reply to: Also, what are some of the hurdles you find begginers have to over come in trad climbing, such as learning to trust your placements?
In reply to: Any of your advice and experience would be of great help (especially to the fledgling leaders!) |
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bill413
May 4, 2006, 12:57 PM
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Agree with the all passive rack. It really helps develop an understanding of how to look for placements.
Also, to instill trust, how about having them build an anchor & rap from it? (Supervisor inspects it before rap, of course). Nothing like backing over an edge from your own pieces to show you they work.
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fanederhand
May 4, 2006, 1:01 PM
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A couple of things I experienced that I will pass on.
1. I took courses from folks that were experienced rock climbing trainers.
2. My first leads were done with a top rope belay (loose) so that I could concentrate on gear placement without the added fear of falling.
3. Probably my biggest help was climbing on a routine basis with someone that was a good leader. So that I could get feedback on my gear placement. In fact during the first year or so of leading I would ask every Second to critique my lead / gear placement.
4. I purposely tried to lead on climbs with different types of rock and terrain, styles (friction slab, vs crack etc.) to get as much experience as possible on as many varied climbs as possible.
5. I was determined to keep trying a route even if I had to bail on it or had a fall on it.
6. One course I took actually taught you how to fall. Unfortunately falling is part of the sport. I do not mean being reckless about leading but it is important to realize early on that falling is part and parcel with the sport so safe leading is something you should keep in mind. A goal here is to find a balance (and this is an individual thing) between placing to much gear and not enough gear.
7. Understand that a leader has to climb on a regular basis to keep his / her edge. This is not a sport (ie TRAD lead climbing) for the occasional fair weathered climber.
8. Learning when it is time to back off from a climb ... how to read the rating of the climb by looking at it (and not being slave to a guide book for that matter), this comes with practice and applying item 4 above.
9. Applying the use of gear to items 4 and 8 above you will then have your own personal awakening to what works for you. There are a lot of ways to approach some climbs and others only certain types of gear work. So you, decide what works best. I tend to agree that passive gear (nuts, etc.) are good to learn to use because their proper placement are very very secure. On the other-hand on long multi-pitch climbs cams can help speed up the process tremendously therefore I suggest that you learn early on to be flexible and learn to use all the tool at your disposal and then have a good mix of gear (you can't carry it all!!!!) to help you through any situation that the rock may throw at you.
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dirtineye
May 4, 2006, 1:35 PM
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All passive gear would be a stupid choice unless you tailor the climbs such that they will go safely on passive only.
Ground school is the best thing for new traddies-- make em place the whole rack while standing on the ground, then walk along and try to evaluate the gear, explaining whata is right or wrong with each placement.
But, let the passive stuff be the last stuff they place, because beginners can get a cam stuck without really trying.
Tell them to place gear often as opposed to seldom.
And tell em the anchor must not fail. That is the only true measure of an anchor.
Lastly, be prepared for many of your students to ignore or forget the exrtremely important things you tell them, and also be prepared to avert disaster in the making. Because they will fvck up stuff, sometimes as you are telling them not to.
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buckyllama
May 4, 2006, 1:38 PM
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I have been through this a few times with new leaders. The first rule is to know the person you are dealing with. Someone who is motivated and has natural mechanical ability is a lot easier to teach than someone who just doesn't "get it" even if they are really psyched about learning.
Having said that, here are some drills and progressions I do.
Aid bouldering/toproping: If there is a good traverse, that's the best. Otherwise have them aid a top rope route. They will have very direct feedback on how their gear placements are. Once done, rap next to them, discuss each placement and have them clean it.
Sport leading: Sport climbing has most of the mechanics of trad leading without all the pesky gear. Have them belay from the top on any climb where it would work. (great for learning rope management) An alternative is leading on pre-placed gear. Again, learn the mechanics without having to deal with the placements.
Anchor practice: have them build anchors all over the place. Critique. I'm not a big cordalette user (though I do use them from time to time) so I don't stress cordalettes, but I do teach them.
Single pitch trad lead familiar: somthing they have toproped and inspected the top for anchor potential.
Single pitch trad lead unfamiliar: Something they've never climbed (or at least not recently)
Multipitch trad lead familiar: Have them lead something they have seconded. Preferably lead the climb first and have them second. Get down, have them lead the climb. (2-3 pitches is preferable)
Multipitch trad lead unfamiliar: go to a route they've never done, have them lead it.
I'll often drop one or more of these steps for any given person, but I've also done the complete progression for some people. It's basically a 6 month to a year progression for most people (unless they are already experienced sport climbers or something). But I've also done it in a week and been fine.
I don't encourage cams/passive/whatever. I climb with my normal rack and focus on good logical placements. The aid climbing and discussions of the placements usually teaches them pretty quick to spot appropriate placements with all the gear types.
When critiquing their placements when inspecting them later, always try to rap a route together (for aid Top-rope or cleaning a single pitch) so you can point out a bad placement and have them figure out why it's bad.
This is all a very one-on-one approach. You can do it with a small group, but more than 4 is pretty unworkable.
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blueeyedclimber
May 4, 2006, 2:26 PM
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Climbing, especially trad climbing, involves three areas; physical (climbing ability), technical (gear placement, anchor building, etc.), and mental (head game, dealing with fear, etc.).
NEVER push more than one at a time, especially for your first few years.
Josh
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glyrocks
May 4, 2006, 2:42 PM
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In reply to: Climbing, especially trad climbing, involves three areas; physical (climbing ability), technical (gear placement, anchor building, etc.), and mental (head game, dealing with fear, etc.). NEVER push more than one at a time, especially for your first few years. Josh
Good advice (says my ankles).
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antiqued
May 4, 2006, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: "Come to the edge" he said. They said, "We are afraid" "Come to the edge" he said. They came. He pushed them... And they flew.
OK, I admit I'm off topic, but here goes...
You've received many good tips, so I'll question what appears to be your basic premise. Trad leading is dangerous. It is not for everyone. While I have shown it to others, encouraged them to do their first lead, belayed them, critiqued their placements, etc, I would not offer formal instruction. None of the groups I have worked with do so either.
Don't follow your signature! You've brought them to the edge with trips and toproping, don't push.
I'm not talking about legal repercussions, though they may exist. Trad leading may be a serious enough endeavor that perhaps people not motivated enough to go place gear and hang on it, etc, etc should not be tempted to give it a fling. The lessons learned yourself go deepest.
You didn't state that your club would be giving classes, but you implied hordes of new leaders. Answer their questions, offer advice, leave it all one on one. It is supposed to be an adventure sport, after all.
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meesier42
May 4, 2006, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: All passive gear would be a stupid choice unless you tailor the climbs such that they will go safely on passive only.
what????? any climb that has been established for more than 20 years or so, being most of them, can be done safely without CAMS or any active pro. That would be garunteed true because, CAMS didn't even exist until about 20 years ago.
Learned to lead without any active, and did so for many leads. Even today, although I have cams, I don't use them anywhere near as often as nuts, hexes, tricams. I feel that this is the best way to teach leading, scout good routes that you know passive can be well placed and go to town., Placing gear on TR with a dummy rope below is a good idea too.
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dirtineye
May 4, 2006, 4:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: All passive gear would be a stupid choice unless you tailor the climbs such that they will go safely on passive only. what????? any climb that has been established for more than 20 years or so, being most of them, can be done safely without CAMS or any active pro. That would be garunteed true because, CAMS didn't even exist until about 20 years ago. Learned to lead without any active, and did so for many leads. Even today, although I have cams, I don't use them anywhere near as often as nuts, hexes, tricams. I feel that this is the best way to teach leading, scout good routes that you know passive can be well placed and go to town., Placing gear on TR with a dummy rope below is a good idea too.
God deliver me from idiots like you.
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markc
May 4, 2006, 5:50 PM
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Good advice from dirt, bucky and blueeyed. I think the best place to work with a group would be in a placement and anchor workshop on the ground. Give everyone a small rack's worth of gear of various sorts, turn them loose, and then go around as a group and evaluate everyone's pieces. (Sometimes putting a sling on small wires helps you keep track of them.) Students will learn from each other's placements. Once general placements look good, work on building anchors.
The idea of teaching throngs of new leaders in a club setting seems rather daunting. I generally recommend starting on really easy grades and getting good mileage. New leaders can futz with gear and work out rope management issues on routes that aren't pushing them technically. By the time they've worked up the grades, they have a solid base to build from, systems they're comfortable with, etc.
Regarding the passive vs. active: I think it's best to make new climbers familiar with all types of devices, and point out the benefits and shortcomings of each. Recommend selecting the best piece for the placement rather than building artificial restrictions.
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blueeyedclimber
May 4, 2006, 9:24 PM
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[quote="meesier42"]In reply to: All passive gear would be a stupid choice unless you tailor the climbs such that they will go safely on passive only.
what????? any climb that has been established for more than 20 years or so, being most of them, can be done safely without CAMS or any active pro. That would be garunteed true because, CAMS didn't even exist until about 20 years ago.
In reply to: Just because they were done, doesn't mean they were done safely. There are plenty of established climbs that I wouldn't touch with your rack and your mother climbing it.
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rockrat_co
May 4, 2006, 10:04 PM
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How you ask this question makes it sound like you really think of them as an insuperior life form, or something to that effect. Deal with??? How about asking how you should help them. Its your choice to go, so you dont have to deal with them... You should, and could, help promote and encourage them in the beginning of their trad leading life.
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duncan_s
May 5, 2006, 9:41 AM
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Most 5.5/5.6 (I'm using a conversion table) should have plenty of room for passive gear. Normally if people complain they cant find it they are not looking hard enough
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blueeyedclimber
May 5, 2006, 1:27 PM
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In reply to: Most 5.5/5.6 (I'm using a conversion table) should have plenty of room for passive gear. Normally if people complain they cant find it they are not looking hard enough
Ratings have nothing to do with how well it's protected. Once you have climbed slab and are 35-40 feet above your last piece, then you will know. Yeah, it's only 5.4, but what if you do fall? You....will......get f'ed....up.
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buckyllama
May 5, 2006, 1:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Most 5.5/5.6 (I'm using a conversion table) should have plenty of room for passive gear. Normally if people complain they cant find it they are not looking hard enough Ratings have nothing to do with how well it's protected. Once you have climbed slab and are 35-40 feet above your last piece, then you will know. Yeah, it's only 5.4, but what if you do fall? You....will......get f'ed....up.
This is very true. Don't put beginning leaders on unknown terrain even if it is easy. A climb may have been put up with passive gear, but the FA also may have been an expert climber of the day who thought nothing of routine 30' runouts. Know the climb before putting a beginner on it. Keep Josh's advice from earlier in the thread in mind. You can push mentally, physically, or technically but only one at a time. Your role as a teacher is to push someone technically.
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