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sthcrag510
May 19, 2006, 5:57 PM
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Im in the process of building a Trad Rack and im about to start buying cams. I've narrowed it down to two. The Metolius Ultralight Range Finder Cams and the Black Diamond Camalots. I've always heard Camalots are the best but i want some of ya'll opinions.
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chanceboarder
May 19, 2006, 6:05 PM
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In reply to: I've always heard Camalots are the best but i want some of ya'll opinions. |
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bones
May 19, 2006, 6:18 PM
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The Metolius cams are really light and place pretty well.
The Camalots are pretty light and place really well.
Solution: Get a set of each with TCUs for the Metolius in the smaller sizes. This is what I would do if I had to buy a new rack again (add some aliens too).
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crimpstrength
May 19, 2006, 6:20 PM
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I have full set of ultralight tcus and most of the fcus. I have c4s up to #3. I would go ultralights down low and bigger c4s. You can go one set of each - that will double it up and make for a pretty systematic rack.
My word: listen to Dingus - "metolius ultralights are sweet"
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dingus
May 19, 2006, 6:34 PM
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They each have their merits. A set of each would be cool!
The notion of ultralights in the smaller sizes and camelots in the larger is a well exercised option in this neck of the woods.
DMT
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jimdavis
May 21, 2006, 3:20 AM
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BD cams are anything BUT light. C3's might be reasonable weight cam....but Camalots and C4's have always been heavier than any other alternative.
I've never cared for them....but that's just me. I'd buy WC, Metolius, or Trango all before BD.
Cheers,
Jim
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anykineclimb
May 21, 2006, 5:35 AM
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just curious as to why you've narrowed it down to those two brands?
have you used them, how about others?
I personally prefer metolius over BD, but thats me.
I also like DMM cams
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heiko
May 21, 2006, 2:41 PM
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Another vote for DMM. Don't know if the extended range of the BD cams really matters beyond, say, a #1. DMMs (and also the Metolius UL, which are sweet cams), are just way lighter.
In the very very big sizes, look at Rock Empire Pulsar for a lightweight alternative to BD.
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heiko
May 21, 2006, 2:52 PM
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by the way: OP, why are you posting the same question twice?
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skinner
May 21, 2006, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: The notion of ultralights in the smaller sizes and camelots in the larger is a well exercised option in this neck of the woods. DMT
Agreed!
I use the same arrangement on everything from really crappy limestone, soft sandstone, conglomerate, to some really nice granite. I think the combination works pretty well everywhere.
And as soon as I get my camera working, I'll show you what happens to a Metolius cam that's been left in the Canadian Rockies for a year.
(bailed last year off of a grey range finder, recovered it last weekend)
I think you'll all be shocked where the ravages of fall-summer-winter-spring did the most damage.
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vegastradguy
May 21, 2006, 8:57 PM
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instead of asking here in the forums, you're better off going to the store and handling both....and then deciding.
the real truth is that it comes down to comfort, because either one of these cams (along with many others) will do the job, so it really comes down to how you like the feel of them.
if you take the word of folks here, you may (or may not) buy a set of cams, only to hate them because you dont like the feel, and end up buying a completely different set- which translates to hundreds of dollars wasted on a set of cams that you likely wont use unless you find yourself at the Creek or on a big wall.
if you're not sure, hold off on your purchase until you can go out and hang with folks that have all different brands and then choose.
personally, i prefer BD, but Metolius makes bomber gear, as does WC, Trango, etc- if I had to, I'd use any of these cams and not give it a second thought....I use BD because I like the feel of 'em.
ps- dont go with that weight argument- thats a load of shit. unless you're an alpinist or going for speed records, the weight difference on any cam is not worth talking about. besides, weight savings is worthless if you hate the feel of the lighter cam anyway.
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jimdavis
May 21, 2006, 9:07 PM
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In reply to: ps- dont go with that weight argument- thats a load of s---. unless you're an alpinist or going for speed records, the weight difference on any cam is not worth talking about. besides, weight savings is worthless if you hate the feel of the lighter cam anyway.
You'll have a tough time convincing climbers who need back surgery of that. Most climbers that I've met have had bad backs after years of climbing. I think weight is important to most people.
Not trying to be argumentative, VTG....just sharing my take on it.
Cheers,
Jim
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vegastradguy
May 22, 2006, 12:39 AM
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In reply to: You'll have a tough time convincing climbers who need back surgery of that. Most climbers that I've met have had bad backs after years of climbing. I think weight is important to most people. Not trying to be argumentative, VTG....just sharing my take on it.
fair enough, and to be sure, weight makes a difference (i'm guilty of shaving weight off of my rack- about 3 1/2 pounds so far), but if you purchase your gear based solely on weight, i think that there's a good chance of buying gear that you're not going to like. weight needs to be a factor, but not a decisive one. (personally, i was more than willing to have heavier cams...(solely BD and CCH)...so i bought lighter carabiners (WC Heliums) and slings (Mammut 8mm's)).
besides, climbers who have been climbing long enough that weight has affected their bodies come from the age before lightweight gear was commonplace. you're likely talking about guys who started out with ovals, tied nylon slings, etc, etc....and if you're talking about guys who have only been climbing for 5-6 years and need back surgery, well, then dude, they were carrying around WAY too much gear and likley had back issues or bad posture to begin with.
in today's age, most racks, even with 'heavy' cams like Black Diamonds, can easily be pared down to weigh in at a very low weight with mammut slings and ultralight biners. i simply do not believe that the average rack of cams (say, singles to 3" with a handful of doubles in certain sizes) is heavy enough for weight to be an issue for the average trad climber.
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tradmule
May 22, 2006, 1:03 AM
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How about rock empire durango cams? and trango max cams?
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jimdavis
May 22, 2006, 1:11 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: You'll have a tough time convincing climbers who need back surgery of that. Most climbers that I've met have had bad backs after years of climbing. I think weight is important to most people. Not trying to be argumentative, VTG....just sharing my take on it. climbers who have been climbing long enough that weight has affected their bodies come from the age before lightweight gear was commonplace. you're likely talking about guys who started out with ovals, tied nylon slings, etc, etc....
Good point, hadn't thought much about it....I just know a lot of climbers who have bad backs, and mine isn't the best....I'm deffinitly thinking about trying to cut down weight where I can after seeing them hobble around.
Cheers,
Jim
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jakedatc
May 22, 2006, 1:18 AM
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Jim, i'd think the hiking with semi heavy packs on tricky approaches with less than ideal footwear and taking whippers would effect back's alot more than climbing with a few extra lbs. sure keeping stuff light will help but i don't think it's a major contribution.
so (as usual it seems) i agree with vegas.. go with the cams you're comfortable with... cover the range you usually hit and lighten up on other pieces of gear where you can if it's a problem.
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 22, 2006, 1:27 AM
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In reply to: I just know a lot of climbers who have bad backs, and mine isn't the best.
More a function of crappy harnesses. Lumbar support has always been an afterthought. Adding 10 ounces for a well-designed, back-friendly harness would be far better than trimming a few ounces off your 180 lb (or whatever) total weight. Lighter gear mostly increases the dweeb factor.
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skinner
May 22, 2006, 4:09 AM
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Well, I broke my back in four places, it's screwed.. there's no question. But I have to agree that the weight difference in cams is so small, that I choose cams that *work best for me* first and foremost. If I can place a cam easily instead of fumbling around with and awkward trigger system, that's less time spent holding myself in possibly an uncomfortable position, which goes a lot further as far as my back is concerned then the tiny weight difference between cams. If that makes any sense.
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jimdavis
May 22, 2006, 4:35 AM
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In reply to: Jim, i'd think the hiking with semi heavy packs on tricky approaches with less than ideal footwear and taking whippers would effect back's alot more than climbing with a few extra lbs.
If your out there every weekend hauling up a rope and a rack....then a lighter rope and rack would help out quite a bit.
I agree with you guys totally, that you should use what works best for you....BD cams are the most expensive and heaviest though....so I don't plan on getting them, ever. WC makes a good cam, as does Metolius and Trango...so why not get a lighter cam?
If your gonna be carrying it to the climb, carrying it on each pitch, and carrying it home...then I think weight should be a consideration. I'm not saying only buy the lighest gear...I just think when there is other gear out there that works really well, too...then why not buy the lighter/ less expensive version?
I learned on BD camalots and never cared for them. The C4's may be better, but they're too expensive for me to really get excited about them. Their argument of more range at the expensive of money and weight, was lost on me. I'm no expert, but I pick my Metolius sizes first time, just about every time....and those cams have the smallest range of any on the market.
That said, the Metolius UL cams seem like a step on the wrong direction to me. They just seem too short...
I just get a hoot out of everyone that buys skinny ropes and tiny-ass biners that then turn around and promote heavy cams.....To each their own.
Cheers,
Jim
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vegastradguy
May 22, 2006, 5:41 AM
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In reply to: I learned on BD camalots and never cared for them. The C4's may be better, but they're too expensive for me to really get excited about them. Their argument of more range at the expensive of money and weight, was lost on me. I'm no expert, but I pick my Metolius sizes first time, just about every time....and those cams have the smallest range of any on the market.
here's a prime example of why you should use gear before you buy it. you learned on camalots and didnt like 'em. if you hadn't learned on camalots and were gung ho, you may have bought a set and regretted the purchase later...and that would have been a huge waste of cash.
its never an issue of expansion range....anyone who gives that as a reason for buying black diamond is full of shit. i mean, its nice, but it certainly isnt the reason i use them.
i use camalots for one reason and one reason only. no other cam gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling like a camalot does when i put it in the rock-- plain and simple. its not because of their expansion range or all that other stuff they brag about...camalots make me feel good, so i use 'em.
if metolius or wc does it for you, then by God, use 'em! one of my biggest rules for climbing gear is to buy and use the stuff that makes you feel good! there is absolutely no reason to be out there 1000' up, pumping out at some crux and fumbling with some piece of shit gear that you dont like- buy it cuz you love it!
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skinner
May 22, 2006, 1:04 PM
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In reply to: if metolius or wc does it for you, then by God, use 'em!
:D
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weasel
May 23, 2006, 3:19 AM
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Jesus Cristo! I didn't know there was a cam named after my little podunk town! Hm, maybe they'll even name something like a car after us! :wink:
Anyway, if you want my opinion, it's pretty much the same for all the gear I suggest. Go to the store, and fondle cams for like a half hour. Just sit down and squeeze the trigger bar about 50 times. You'll find one that you like to squeeze more than others. Because frankly, when it comes to cams (with the exception of BD, Met, and Trango "extended range" cams) they all do the same damn thing. If you're climbing with something you like to handle, you'll climb better.
However, in my 9 years of gathering climbing gear, I currently own 3 items of BD equipment. Despite this, I'm ordering a set of camalots next week. Since we're so close to the creek, everyone in this damn town'll forever berate you for owning anything but camalots. But hey, I've got to admit the C4's are way sexier than the old style.
Good luck on your decision.
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weasel
May 23, 2006, 3:51 AM
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oh, and re: the weights of various cams, here's a handy chart.
Weights for various brands in the range of 12(ish)mm to 85(ish)mm. Enjoy.
BD Camalots: 859gms (7 units)
WC Friends: 1128gms (10 units) hey, my friends are fat too
Met Ultralight PCs: 771gms (8 units)
DMM 4CU's: 1109gms (11 units)
I have no idea if most of this is right, the Mountain Gear catalogue is notorious for typos.
Anyway, hope it helps a bit.
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sthcrag510
May 23, 2006, 8:01 AM
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well i went to the store today and got them to let me see both a BD and metolius. I played around with them for about 10 minutes and came to the conclusion i like the BD's alot better. For a couple of reasons. I like the smoothness of the camming action. Metolius's seems to be kind of harsh/ choppy if that makes sense. Second The BD's are much easier to handle. The BD's trigger is much more egonical(spelling) than metolius. So i think im going to go with BD's in the medium to semi larger sizes and Metolius tcu's in the small sizes. Or something like that.
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heiko
May 23, 2006, 10:05 AM
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make sure you try a couple of metolius, as I've just recently played with a few new ones a friend of mine got, and the action seemed to differ quite a bit (from BD-ish nice to annoying).
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