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beanrock
Jun 8, 2006, 8:14 PM
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So it's a rainy day in New York City. I was gonna take my dad's car up to the gunks or west point, because school is out today. Thanks alot weather... I decided instead to be productive in my apartment staircase. I figured it would be cool to practice setting up an anchor. My newly assembled rack consisting of trad slings, a nut set, and a soon to be set of 5 Rock Empire Robot Cams are what i'm working with. However, I have never lead a trad route, nor set up an anchor that I have used while climbing outdoors. I have merely practiced. (I have however, mock lead a 5.7 trad route without a fall.) What I ask of you guys, is to evaluate the setup of this practice anchor, assuming the placements were secure, and were placed solidly in the direction of the pull.
From Right to Left: Two placements on slings equalized with a sliding X. Two more placements on slings equalized with a sliding X. Left: Two placements on slings equalized with a sliding X. These placements are for opposition both horizontally and vertically.
http://i6.tinypic.com/123mfkj.jpg
CloseUp of systems on the Right side of the anchor:
http://i6.tinypic.com/123mjc7.jpg
Omitted in larger photo: Cordelette equalizing all systems. Lead rope clove hitched into cordelette with direct belay off the cordelette.
http://i5.tinypic.com/123myid.jpg
QUESTION: Would this arrangement on the left side of the anchor (for opposition) be more suitable than the sliding X knot pictured above?
http://i6.tinypic.com/123nl2d.jpg
Hope this belongs in the correct forum. Thanks,
Nick
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rockguide
Jun 8, 2006, 8:26 PM
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resize the pictures.
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devils_advocate
Jun 8, 2006, 8:27 PM
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and reshoot them in focus
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taino
Jun 8, 2006, 8:29 PM
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Sweet, merciful crap. :shock:
Resize those, and ask again. Here's a link how.
T
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dirtineye
Jun 8, 2006, 8:49 PM
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fvck you very much, it's been fun
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devils_advocate
Jun 8, 2006, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: Good lord man, if you are having that much trouble geting up the stairs, maybe you shoudl rethink climbing altogether!
:lol: :lol: :lol: sorry man, no rate button today. nice.
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beanrock
Jun 8, 2006, 9:02 PM
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ok, i tried my best to fix the pictures in html. please comment.
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beanrock
Jun 8, 2006, 9:03 PM
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ok, i tried my best to fix the pictures in html. please comment.
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jabtocrag
Jun 8, 2006, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Good lord man, if you are having that much trouble geting up the stairs, maybe you shoudl rethink climbing altogether! :lol: :lol: :lol: sorry man, no rate button today. nice.
I on the otherhand was able to recognize his genius!! :lol: :lol:
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cracklover
Jun 8, 2006, 9:16 PM
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Okay, four things pop to mind immediately:
1 - The angle is very large in the overall anchor. Looks like well over 100 degrees between outer strands. Load multiplication time.
2 - The overall anchor is not equalizing because of the knotted cordelette bringing together all the crossed slings.
3 - If any of the four outside pieces rip, your anchor will likely be completely on the two middle pieces.
4 - Six pieces? Jesus, remind me not to follow you up any climbs in the Gunks! I can hear it now...
Cracklover calling up: "Hey, beanrock, can I take you off belay yet?"
BR calling down from belay ledge: "No, sorry, I'll just be another ten minutes, I've got to find three or four more placements and equalize them all.
Cracklover:
G:lol:
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veganboyjosh
Jun 8, 2006, 9:33 PM
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i would hope that a 56kn anchor would be sufficient...
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climbingbetty22
Jun 8, 2006, 9:45 PM
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Before I throw my .02 cents in, I will forewarn that my .02 cents is worth more like .0005 as I do not have near the level of expertise as some on this board.
However, three things that stick out to me-
1. As dirtineye put it so eloquently (thank god I can rate posts today!), way over the top. A very good rule in anchor building is K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid).
2. Employing the sliding X without using any sort of knots means that if one of the pieces blows you'll get extension in the system, shock loading the other piece. I've hear arguements for and against the use of the sliding X, if anyone has a link to something more conclusive, please send to me, becuase I would like to know once and for all for my own edification .
3. And this one sort of builds on #1 and #2. Think about it, you used a sliding X, presumably so you would have self-equalizing system, but then you slapped a cordelette on it, which though equalized once tied, is no longer trully equalized when the direction of pull changes. So the two have just mitigated themselves and you've wasted half your rack in the process, so now the real life scenario is that you're going to have to run it waaaaayyyy out on P2. :shock:
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beanrock
Jun 8, 2006, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: Okay, four things pop to mind immediately: 1 - The angle is very large in the overall anchor. Looks like well over 100 degrees between outer strands. Load multiplication time. 2 - The overall anchor is not equalizing because of the knotted cordelette bringing together all the crossed slings. 3 - If any of the four outside pieces rip, your anchor will likely be completely on the two middle pieces. 4 - Six pieces? Jesus, remind me not to follow you up any climbs in the Gunks! I can hear it now...
1- shouldnt it not matter if the angle is larger than 90 because the two equalized placements on the left are being used for opposition?
2- are you suggesting I should forget knotting the segments of the cordellette and belay/tie in off a locker connected to the cordelette for optimal equalization? what happens if one of the equalized systems fail, wouldnt there be too much shock loading on the other?
and 4 - do you think the four pieces on the right would make a sufficient anchor if they were equalized with a sliding x and then a cordelette? (meaning i would ditch the two placements on the left)
thanks for the commentary rockguide, it is what i was trying to get with a post like this. MORE MORE MORE
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veganboyjosh
Jun 8, 2006, 9:58 PM
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since no one's mentioned the 4 weirdly crossed biners at the top of the whole enchilada, i just did.
i know, i know, this is a staircase anchor.
but since we're tearing it apart...
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namoclimber
Jun 8, 2006, 10:05 PM
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screw the sliding X all together forget about it, just place two bomber anchores side by side and equalize the two together. no risk of shock load, no blood curdling scream of death to silence!
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beanrock
Jun 8, 2006, 10:22 PM
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This anchor was semi-inspired by john long's book more climbing anchors, where he uses sliding x's and then equalizes with cordelettes. is that a bad thing to do?
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veganboyjosh
Jun 8, 2006, 10:25 PM
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In reply to: This anchor was semi-inspired by john long's book more climbing anchors, where he uses sliding x's and then equalizes with cordelettes. is that a bad thing to do?
there are better anchor setups out there...
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trenchdigger
Jun 8, 2006, 10:25 PM
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The biggest problem is that it's way too complicated. You just wasted 3 pieces and two or three slings that you might need on the next pitch, not to mention 10 extra minutes that let that thunderhead building over the ridge get a head start on you.
You can do better than this... think simple.
~Adam~
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mojede
Jun 8, 2006, 10:29 PM
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Since you are new to climbing, read any of John Long's books on anchors (or all). What you are after MUST ABSOLUTELY fit into the SRENE category. Solid-Redundant-Equalized-No Extenion anchor. What will certainly help keeping partners though is to add Timely. This becomes the acronym ERNEST. Memorize it and practice it ad nauseum. Good luck and use all constructive criticism to help keep you and your partners alive.
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jaybro
Jun 8, 2006, 11:41 PM
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It'll work. Good start. Like they said, try to make it simpler while still covering the basics; you may need some of that stuff on the next stairwell.
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weasel
Jun 9, 2006, 12:41 AM
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Ok, by FAR the first thing I noticed was that it is really, really complicated. If you're just setting up a normal trad anchor, this is about 4 times too much... stuff.
let me list what you have in the photos.
6 (theoretical) pieces of pro.
9 slings
20 carabiners
1 cordlette
90% of anchor situations will call for;
3 pieces of pro
5-6 carabiners
1 cordlette
That is actually 4 times as much gear as one should need. True, using a cordlette won't keep the anchor equilized for all directions of pull, but unless you're going to be belaying a traverse you won't need it to be able to pull to the sides or anything. And if you need to set the anchor up upside down or to be able to handle an upward pull, you usually only need an additional 1 piece of pro, 2 carabiners and a sling.
When you're actually on the wall, you're trying to set up an anchor fast and safe. You're not passing time on a rainy day. K.I.S.S. is super important to remember.
Edit:ed for clarity. Althought I think I still went on a rant there.
Although, admitedly there isn't actually anything wrong with the anchor you've got there. Just that those outside pieces are being pulled to the side rather than down, and complexity.
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petsfed
Jun 9, 2006, 1:10 AM
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Right off hand, you use a lot of sliding x's to combine two pieces into one, before clipping that to the cordolette. Only do that if they're both so-so pieces AND they're the best you can get. Otherwise, just use one piece. Its faster and uses less gear.
In your sliding x's, you're redundant on everything. In this situation, you're too redundant. Two crabs, two slings, everything? You've already got a backup with the cordolette, why waste more?
If all of the placements are bomber, use only three placements, cordolette them together and call it good. No muss, no fuss. Think about how multi-directional you need it too. If all that will happen is downward (and later upward) pull, don't bother with side directionals, and place gear that is multidirectional to begin with.
You're on the right track here, but you're clinging to rules (like equalize everything, be redundant, eliminate extension). Learn the theory behind those rules, rather than the rules themselves, and you'll build better anchors.
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tradalltheway
Jun 9, 2006, 1:16 AM
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Dude, I've been to the crag on a many of rainy days. You can still place gear at ground level and get a better idea of an anchor than you can on your staircase. Don't sweat the drive, go to the rock, practice as you would climb. All I see in your pictures are alot of "what if's." Go find a place to plug your gear instead of ruining your staircase. And to critique, you used way too much gear and thought. If placements were iffy then okay, but you said all placements were secure so ease off the quantity and focus on three good pieces of quality. I've belayed off of two solid pieces on a sliding x before so I won't argue sliding vs. knotted, but there is a time and place for both. I don't see alot of lockers in your pics; I personally carry a cordallette, 1 pear locker, and 3 other lockers for my belay setup. Knot always necessary but my preference. I also enjoyed the "Anchors" and "More Anchors" books, but you can't use all of them at once and some times you can't even use one of them at once. They are neat though.
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redlegrangerone
Jun 9, 2006, 1:54 AM
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I will be able to comment on this tomorrow when my 56k finishes the download. :shock:
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beanrock
Jun 9, 2006, 2:29 AM
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UPDATE:
OK GUYS - and GALS
I ran to the videostore to return a few flicks and picked up Cliffhanger. damn that movie made me look like a friggin idiot worrying about all this anchor bullcrap, why not just hang off the rock with one hand while you belay the second up off your harness and then hold the fall by yourself! LOL. anyways, i was inspired to construct a new anchor.
3 (theoretically) solid placements equalized with a cordelette. the lead rope is first clove hitched to the cordelette and then clove hitched to the placement on the right, and is then belayed directly off the cordelette.
http://i6.tinypic.com/124ep28.jpg
this one follows:
Solid- well theoretically, the placements would be solid.
Redundant- There are three placements
E-this anchor is TRUELY equalized with no knot in the cordelette
NE- this anchor doesnt comply to NO EXTENTION if the right placement fails. By adding a knot in the cordelette, it would, but i was told thats not good. I think I would rather sacrifice my equalization than have Extention. So in doing it over again, i would use a knot in the cordelette.
RIP IT APART! GO GO GO
btw, this anchor only took me a few minutes to put together CrackLover
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