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kubi
Jun 8, 2006, 9:04 PM
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http://jim.greenpride.com/.../Images/img_1307.jpg
Second climbs up from about 4 o'clock. Leader leads directly to the left (9 o'clock). The camera case is not load-bearing. There are a few things I'd do differently, and a few things I changed immediately after I took this picture, but I'll leave the über-anal armchair climbers to find them.
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j_ung
Jun 8, 2006, 9:32 PM
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I'll play for a sec, then I have to drive back to Fayetteville.
1. I don't like the multiple biners stacked on bolt anchors. Leverage issues aside, those biners look like they could open at pretty much any time. I like that you used two slings for redundancy, but separate biners for each sling are unnecessary.
2. You're only anchored to one bolt.
3. The hand I can see is on your end of the rope and, presumably, the other one is holding the camera... did you tie a back-up knot in the brake? :wink:
Doesn't look like you were in imminent danger, though. What did you change?
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j_ung
Jun 8, 2006, 9:34 PM
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Oh, and wasn't there something in the sliding X thread about using a wide pear-biner at the master point of your sliding X? Also, If you're gonna go that route, tie a limiter knot. That's all I got.
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rockguide
Jun 8, 2006, 9:48 PM
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All I see:
Get rid of the extra sling
Tie limiting knots
Tighten the chinstrap
Anchor to the focal point
Only one carabiner clipped directly to the bolts.
With two 3/8 inch bolts that are side by side there is less need to get into advanced anchor-fu. Keep it simple and save time and resources for the next lead.
Brian
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slacklinejoe
Jun 8, 2006, 9:51 PM
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I'll bite:
While not a major deal you could have the gates on the right side pointing to the right.
If you actually wanted to us a sliding x then a single sling with limiting knots would be better.
If you didn't need sliding equalization statically clipping two slings would have been fine since the bolt hangers are even.
Your only hooked to 1 bolt.
Try to go with only 1 biner in the hangers at a time.
Some light lockers would have been prefered to the non-lockers on the bolts.
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slacklinejoe
Jun 8, 2006, 9:54 PM
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I'll bite:
While not a major deal you could have the gates on the right side pointing to the right.
If you actually wanted to us a sliding x then a single sling with limiting knots would be better.
If you didn't need sliding equalization statically clipping two slings would have been fine since the bolt hangers are even.
Your only hooked to 1 bolt - clip into the master point instead.
Try to go with only 1 biner in the hangers at a time.
Some light lockers would have been prefered to the non-lockers on the bolts.
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kubi
Jun 9, 2006, 1:36 AM
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Things I changed right away:
Wiggled all the biners around so they sat real nicely in the hangers
Tied into the other bolt, too
Things I'd do differently next time:
Use at least one locker on each bolt, instead of multiple non-lockers.
I'm not comfortable using only one sling in situations like this. This is also the first time I've belayed a 2nd off of two bolts, all my other multipitch has either used gear anchors or one big-ole anchor (tree, tunnel, etc.). I tied into just one bolt 'cause I didn't know if having multiple biners through the equalized point of the sling would snarl it up or not.
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slobmonster
Jun 9, 2006, 3:33 AM
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In reply to: I'm not comfortable using only one sling in situations like this.
Using one sling would be fine if you either:
-knotted the sling to create a "master point;"
-tied load-limiting slings to the arms of your sliding-X.
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4gottherope
Jun 9, 2006, 5:29 AM
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People hit the high points but I think they downplayed the risk of the way the biners are stacked. I would be worried about catastrophic failure. This looks very risky to me and here is why:
The top biner is x-loaded and it uses the gate of the other biner as the side support. If the climber falls the top biner could fail. The force would likely damage the gate of the lower biner.
When the top biner fails the system will try to extend putting all of the load on the damage biner (2nd sling). If you are lucky, the 2nd biner holds. But it now has a damaged gate and appromiates open gate strength AND it is now the sole support. It could easily fail.
If that isn't bad enough, when the 2nd biner fails the system will extend shock loading the final element. OK, it will likely hold but you will be down to one anchor point and it isn't pretty.
By the way, I have some of the new 6mm sling too. I love them.
Climb safe,
John
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majid_sabet
Jun 9, 2006, 6:43 AM
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MY 2 cents
What a mess
Over kill on too many biner, too many biner, too many problems
no need for equalizing if your load is straight down, just use the equalizing anchor and put a overhang or a fig 8 at the end where ATC is , if one bolt pops, you minimize the shock load to other biner.
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antiqued
Jun 9, 2006, 6:06 PM
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The three biners/hanger looks really icky- visceral reaction. Things will be shifting and popping all over the place if disaster strikes. Use one/hanger, clip into those, or if anal, two opposed per hanger. Clip slings, camera biner, rope biner into it (or the opposed them?)
As far as I am concerned, you are tied in to both bolts - they're connected by two 22+kN slings.
Is the second really at 4o'clock when the rope tightens? I haven't tons of practice autoblocking (with a B52) but it really works much better hanging straight down for me, and fails to lock at significant off angles.
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crimpstrength
Jun 9, 2006, 6:14 PM
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What would be wrong with an alpine equalizer, with knots, on the two bolts? To the equalizer master point, you have your PAS and the reverso. I'm asking because that is what I would have done...
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kubi
Jun 9, 2006, 6:25 PM
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In reply to: The three biners/hanger looks really icky- visceral reaction. Things will be shifting and popping all over the place if disaster strikes. Use one/hanger, clip into those, or if anal, two opposed per hanger. Clip slings, camera biner, rope biner into it (or the opposed them?)
Oh, it is icky. That's the first thing I fixed after I took the picture. As shown you could probably get the gate on that biner to torque off in a big fall. In the future I'm going to replace those two neutrinos with one locking biner and put my tie-in biner either at the equalized point or over the anchor biners (since it'll never see signifigant force).
In reply to: As far as I am concerned, you are tied in to both bolts - they're connected by two 22+kN slings.
Those were my thoughts when I tied in, before I took this picture, but after I did I got a little nervous and tied in again to the other bolt.
In reply to: Is the second really at 4o'clock when the rope tightens? I haven't tons of practice autoblocking (with a B52) but it really works much better hanging straight down for me, and fails to lock at significant off angles.
I've used the reverso at all sorts of angles and it's never had a problem locking off. When you've had problem has the biner attatching the B52 to the anchor been free to rotate?
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chanceboarder
Jun 9, 2006, 7:07 PM
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Am I the only one uncomfortable with the fact that the camera case is only anchored in with ONE biner and on ONE bolt? I mean come on now, if that bolt goes you run the risk of seriously scratching that case or even worse losing it all together. I'd like to see a redundant anchor built for the case. I'm thinking maybe 2 or 3 slings combined and maybe even some of those steel rescue biners that hold like 50kn.
I may be playing the part of the safely police here but the way that camera cases is anchored is really sketching me out. :wink:
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billcoe_
Jun 9, 2006, 7:30 PM
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Clearly too many bolts.
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kubi
Jun 9, 2006, 7:34 PM
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In reply to: What would be wrong with an alpine equalizer, with knots, on the two bolts? To the equalizer master point, you have your PAS and the reverso. I'm asking because that is what I would have done...
I don't currently carry any specialized anchor building gear and don't intend to start.
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vivalargo
Jun 9, 2006, 10:10 PM
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Clean off all the non-essential biners and shite.
Limiter knots in the X (less crucial here providing the bolts are uber bomber).
Tie into the powerpoint with a big, anodized biner, mouth down and away, not one biner on one bolt.
Belay off our waist, or redirect if the bolts are totally bomber.
This all takes seconds.
JL
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fanfoui
Jun 10, 2006, 8:41 AM
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You should've screwed in some more bolts for all your extra non-climbing gear such as headlamp, walkie-talkie, lunchbag, etc... and of course you need multiple more bolts for redundancy
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johngo
Jun 12, 2006, 5:13 AM
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Here's a slick trick to equalize two close-together bolts with a 2 foot runner. I posted it awhile back, but after seeing this needlessly complex rig, it might need to be dusted off. Please have a look:
http://rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=96651
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majid_sabet
Jun 12, 2006, 5:30 AM
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Johny
Did they tell you the knots are the weakest part of any system and why do you leave your biner in the middle of the knot ?
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clovissprout
Jun 12, 2006, 5:35 AM
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What's a limiter knot on a sliding x? Can someone explain that? I imagine its purpose and use is obvious...
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fanfoui
Jun 12, 2006, 5:36 AM
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Very easy and interesting johngo I'm gonna try it next time I go climbing
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kubi
Jun 12, 2006, 4:11 PM
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In reply to: ...needlessly complex rig, it might need to be dusted off...
Just to set the record straight, this is not a "needlessly complex rig" or "overkill". Both those statements imply that I went out of my way to add extra biners to the anchor. My slings are racked as trad draws, so removing those extraneous biners results in more work.
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