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thorne
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Jun 27, 2006, 12:50 PM
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In this thread, it seems like a number of people most of whom don't live in the US, have a very distorted view of the "gun culture" in this country. A common response to posts explaining the gun owner/carrier POV is to look for ways to misunderstand what people are trying to say and mock them.
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kubi
Jun 27, 2006, 12:55 PM
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I've lived around guns and those who carry them (1/2 my friends in college had concealed carry permits and one idiot* actually took his gun to class) long enough that I respect their arguments and even agree with some of them. However tradman's post really sums up a lot of the visceral reactions I have when pro-gun people post.
In reply to: ...you don't realise just how much you go on about how "evil" people are planning to do you harm and how "warriors" must protect the "innocent" but you do...Real fighting - with "deadly force" (lovely term, very faux-military) - is muddled, brutal and never has a clean, safe outcome...cobbled together from hollywood films and self-congratulatory bravado...your imaginary world is fairly hopping with "evil" men who need to be killed by heroic "warriors"...the LAST person I would want anywhere near me would be a trigger-happy paranoiac like you. The first priority in an emergency is not brassing up the baddies like rambo on viagra...
* not one of my friends
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rhaig
Jun 27, 2006, 1:17 PM
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pat of the point of a concealed weapons law is that it reduces the criminals motivation to do crime. (I'm in the middle of compiling statistics to make a researched post about what it did to crime rates in at least TX)
If a VCA (violent criminal actor) walks into a store where I happen to be in line and pulls a gun and yells "give me your money", I know from the tactical training that I've been through, that there is very little chance he's going to shoot anyone. He's a robber, not a murderer. My gun stays put, even if he gets my wallet. If a criminal walks into the same store, walks up to the office and shoots the guy behind the desk, jumps over the counter and starts taking the money, then he's a murder and will likely kill the next person he feels he needs to to impress his sense of urgency on the rest of us. My first action is to find some cover, then I look for accomplices, not seeing any I draw my weapon and wait for a shot. (doing some movie BS about covering it with a news paper isn't a bad idea)
if a VCA is the second type, they tend to be more intelligent. That type is more likely to consider who's in the store before they start the event. As likely as it is in TX for a man to be carrying concealed (looking for referencable stats on that too) a VCA of this type will not want us around when his event starts. Concealed weapon carriers are a deterrent.
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tradman
Jun 27, 2006, 1:35 PM
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In reply to: My first action is to find some cover, then I look for accomplices, not seeing any I draw my weapon and wait for a shot. (doing some movie BS about covering it with a news paper isn't a bad idea) if a VCA is the second type, they tend to be more intelligent. That type is more likely to consider who's in the store before they start the event. As likely as it is in TX for a man to be carrying concealed (looking for referencable stats on that too) a VCA of this type will not want us around when his event starts. Concealed weapon carriers are a deterrent.
Again, why?
I agree with your self-control in the first case - I'd much rather hand over my wallet or just run away than get involved in some craziness.
However, in the second case, why "wait for a shot"? What do you accomplish by killing someone stealing money? Is it even legal to kill someone who's not threatening anyone?
I'm interested - it seems to me that you'd be better off staying alive to give evidence to the police than risking your neck to be judge and jury, no?
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thorne
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Jun 27, 2006, 1:47 PM
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Trad,
The part of the paragraph that you excluded, makes points that (based on your questions) you seem to overlook.
In reply to: If a criminal walks into the same store, walks up to the office and shoots the guy behind the desk, jumps over the counter and starts taking the money, then he's a murder and will likely kill the next person he feels he needs to to impress his sense of urgency on the rest of us.
This is what I meant by "look for ways to misunderstand what people are trying to say".
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kubi
Jun 27, 2006, 1:48 PM
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In reply to: If a criminal walks into the same store, walks up to the office and shoots the guy behind the desk, jumps over the counter and starts taking the money, then he's a murder and will likely kill the next person he feels he needs to to impress his sense of urgency on the rest of us. My first action is to find some cover, then I look for accomplices, not seeing any I draw my weapon and wait for a shot. (doing some movie BS about covering it with a news paper isn't a bad idea)
how often does this happen?
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macherry
Jun 27, 2006, 2:00 PM
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In reply to: In this thread, it seems like a number of people most of whom don't live in the US, have a very distorted view of the "gun culture" in this country. A common response to posts explaining the gun owner/carrier POV is to look for ways to misunderstand what people are trying to say and mock them.
i don't think so Thorne. I still can't for the life of me, figure out the need to carry a concealed weapon because of some 'evil' out there. There's no identified villan, just perceived........what if!!!!
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rhaig
Jun 27, 2006, 2:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If a criminal walks into the same store, walks up to the office and shoots the guy behind the desk, jumps over the counter and starts taking the money, then he's a murder and will likely kill the next person he feels he needs to to impress his sense of urgency on the rest of us. My first action is to find some cover, then I look for accomplices, not seeing any I draw my weapon and wait for a shot. (doing some movie BS about covering it with a news paper isn't a bad idea) how often does this happen?
so far none. so far
I'd rather carry 3lbs of metal on my belt and never need it, than need it and not have it.
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rhaig
Jun 27, 2006, 2:06 PM
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In reply to: However, in the second case, why "wait for a shot"? What do you accomplish by killing someone stealing money? Is it even legal to kill someone who's not threatening anyone? I'm interested - it seems to me that you'd be better off staying alive to give evidence to the police than risking your neck to be judge and jury, no?
Like it's been pointed out. You're ignoring the part of my post where I point out that this VCA is a murderer and will kill again if it suits him. He is threatening everyone in the store to get what he needs. And in Texas and many other states who's gun-laws I've researched, it is legal to kill the VCA in this case.
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thorne
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Jun 27, 2006, 2:29 PM
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In reply to: sorry you live in fear i'm surprised you even leave the house
Goes to my previous posts.
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tradman
Jun 27, 2006, 2:49 PM
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In reply to: Like it's been pointed out. You're ignoring the part of my post where I point out that this VCA is a murderer and will kill again if it suits him. He is threatening everyone in the store to get what he needs. And in Texas and many other states who's gun-laws I've researched, it is legal to kill the VCA in this case.
Oh, I'm not cherry-picking here, I'm simply asking a practical question.
You say he's threatening everyone to get what he needs.
So why not just give him what he needs?
Or just stay out of his way so he has no reason to shoot you?
Again, we have an imaginary character - a mass murderer who will kill anyone and everyone just to rob a store. Again, this non-existent person behaves in a way which makes no sense. And he does it to justify a person who's afraid of him - and just about everything else - carrying a gun.
The giveaway is in the last paragraph:
In reply to: in Texas and many other states who's gun-laws I've researched, it is legal to kill the VCA in this case.[/
You've actually researched who you can legally kill. That's not the action of someone who's only looking to defend himself.
In fact, it seems obvious that you're actively looking for an excuse to use your gun to kill someone when many other avenues exist which would have a better result but not involve you waving your gun around and playing the hero.
:?
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fenix83
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Jun 27, 2006, 3:05 PM
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In reply to: The giveaway is in the last paragraph: In reply to: in Texas and many other states who's gun-laws I've researched, it is legal to kill the VCA in this case.[/ You've actually researched who you can legally kill. That's not the action of someone who's only looking to defend himself.
Trad, come on, this is purposefully dull on your part. I research the self defense laws specific to almost every state/country I go to for one simple reason, ignorance of the law is not a valid excuse.
What I am allowed to do and how I am allowed to prepare myself in a variety of situations changes from area to area (something as simple as seat-belt laws or as complex as concealed carry) so it just makes sense to know what the rules of the game are in the area you will be playing. I also make it a point to read a local paper a couple of days before a trip so I know what's up in the area... does that make me insane?
-F
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dookie
Jun 27, 2006, 3:16 PM
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trad, you convienently ignore the fact that he's finding this out for research he's doing. :roll:
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alx
Jun 27, 2006, 5:02 PM
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Why we need to carry firearms?
1. Because we're scared little people sure that someday the bogeyman will get us. What if? What if? What if?
2. We're just itching for a chance to kill some of the evil bodeymen so we don't have to feel small and scared any more.
Can we close this thread now?
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fenix83
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Jun 27, 2006, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What I am allowed to do and how I am allowed to prepare myself in a variety of situations changes from area to area ( something as simple as seat-belt laws or as complex as concealed carry) so it just makes sense to know what the rules of the game are in the area you will be playing. I also make it a point to read a local paper a couple of days before a trip so I know what's up in the area... does that make me insane?
You are, as usual, ignoring the obvious. By terming my research "recce" you give it a paramilitary-mumbo-jumbo quality, which is not at all the case. When I read the papers I am looking for all kinds of things, from good concerts/plays that coincide with my visit, to must see attractions, to must-avoid areas. If you have ever been caught in Guatemala City during indigenous protests, you would understand why I would rather know in n advance. During those days, all you can do is sit in the hotel with a good book, many main roads get closed and power is sometimes intermitent, so planning any meetings/work on those days is a bad idea.
In reply to: Yes, you're probably insane. :lol:
Well, you might be right on that score, I've always thought normal people are real boring. 8^) And my mom thinks the fact I am willing to get up at 5am too drag my ass up a cliff makes me insane by definition. :roll:
In reply to: And no, it's not a game and there aren't any rules. I guess in your macho fantasy you'll have time to think about whether the law stipulates that you can or can't kill someone. In reality however... well you're clearly not too familiar with reality really.
Come on man, quit trying to fit me into your box as a paranoid delusional and listen (or read closely, I guess)...
Of course there are rules, let's take a couple of simple examples:
-I am a former volunteer firefighter, and during my time there, I developed the habit of carrying a rescue knife (sheepsfoot with a serrated blade) all the time, it is an invaluable tool. That knife would be illegal in a lot of places, so I don't carry it there.
-Pepper spary is often touted as a great tool, I agree, but the type, concentration and sizes that are allowed change from place to place, so I want to know that too...
-Assuming I did choose to legally carry a concealed weapon, what constitutes self-defense changes from area to area, not to mention method of carry, whether you should/are required to notify local police/traffic cops, etc... I am not looking for ways to get in troouble, I am looking for ways to stay away from it.
Bear in mind, these are just examples relating to self-defese, there are a lot of other things I try to find out before I travel...
-F
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rhaig
Jun 27, 2006, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Like it's been pointed out. You're ignoring the part of my post where I point out that this VCA is a murderer and will kill again if it suits him. He is threatening everyone in the store to get what he needs. And in Texas and many other states who's gun-laws I've researched, it is legal to kill the VCA in this case. Oh, I'm not cherry-picking here, I'm simply asking a practical question. You say he's threatening everyone to get what he needs. So why not just give him what he needs? Or just stay out of his way so he has no reason to shoot you?
In reply to: Again, we have an imaginary character - a mass murderer who will kill anyone and everyone just to rob a store. Again, this non-existent person behaves in a way which makes no sense. And he does it to justify a person who's afraid of him - and just about everything else - carrying a gun. The giveaway is in the last paragraph: In reply to: in Texas and many other states who's gun-laws I've researched, it is legal to kill the VCA in this case.[/ You've actually researched who you can legally kill. That's not the action of someone who's only looking to defend himself.
In reply to: In fact, it seems obvious that you're actively looking for an excuse to use your gun to kill someone when many other avenues exist which would have a better result but not involve you waving your gun around and playing the hero. :?
since you know me so well, what do I want for lunch? it's late already, and I'm starting to get hungry.
I hope you never are in a situation where you need the protection of anyone with a gun be it police or military. If you were, I'm afraid you might try to talk them out of it.
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jred
Jun 27, 2006, 7:15 PM
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It seems to me that America must be an extremely violent place, only American's are defending guns. This desire/need to play the self defence hero with a gun aparently does not exist in any other countries why is that? Could the NRA's lobbying power and influence have something to do with this?
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epic_ed
Jun 27, 2006, 7:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In my life time there have been few occasions where I felt a need to have a gun -- two of 'em, in fact. Neither time did I have a gun, and both times I ended up a victim of crime. Well then it looks like I've been threatened with firearms a lot more often than you have Ed. And I'd bet that I've been on the wrong end of a knife, a bat and a claw hammer more often too. Want to know what I know about self-defense? 1. I was in those situations because I put myself there, usually using my mouth. 2. The idea of getting a clean shot off, or a straight knock-out punch, is a fantasy. Real fighting - with "deadly force" (lovely term, very faux-military) - is muddled, brutal and never has a clean, safe outcome.
Funny -- I don't see a "self-defense" solution here. You're correct that combat, fighting, and survival situations are never clear and easy. That doesn't explain why you wouldn't rather have a gun in a knife fight. My guess is you would, but don't want to admit it. Own and carrying a gun doesn't abdicate me or others from using all tools at our disposal for resolving the conflict.
If you and I are hanging out at the bar one evening picking up babes and swilling cheap beer, and we're confronted by the boyfriend of one of the babes we thought was single, both you and I have the same tools available to us to resolve the conflict. We both have the same responsibilities for using only the force necessary to either avoid or surpress agression. The only difference is if all else fails and he decides to bust out a knife and start pokin at us, I have an additional tool with which to defend myself.
Would I rather run away? Yep -- retreat is almost always the first and best option. If I can't, then I'd much rather have the option of drawing my gun than pulling a knife in order to stop the attack. It doesn't seem like such a stretch to understand why this would be my choice, but if you don't get it, then you just don't get it. I think you're in denial.
In reply to: Case in point: In reply to: As has been mentioned, a gun is the great equalizer. You don't think most knife crimes could be stopped with the simple draw of a hand gun? Regardless of who is drawing the gun? Let's say your wife or girlfriend is carrying a knife -- a nice 6" long fixed blade -- and is confronted by a large man weilding a 3" folder. Do you think she would stand a chance if she decided to defend herself with the tools she has available? Yeah, she has a bigger knife, but does she know how to use it? Could she over come the difference is physical stature between her self and her attacker? Now assume the same scenario, except the lady is packing a gun she knows how to use. BANG! End of attack. End of story. Even the frailest of lil old ladies can defend themselves from the largest of attackers if they have the right tool in their hands to equal the playing field. This is a child's fantasy version of a violent encounter, cobbled together from hollywood films and self-congratulatory bravado. Someone who's pointing a gun at you's not going to let you pull one of your own. Killing is not the only way out of a tense situation. To paraphrase, if your only tool is a hammer and you live in terror of unknown imaginary "evil men", you'll see nails everywhere you go.
This isn't a fantasy, at all. My scenario was gun vs. knife, not gun vs. gun. Obviously, if you're held at gun point you'd look for any opportunity to escape before taking defensive action. But if you got that chance, whihc would you rather pull out of your bag of tools? A gun, or a knife?
You're correct, killing isn't the only way out of a tense situation. Again, carrying a gun doesn't abdicate you of your responsibility to think and use good judgement. The brain does not get turned off and go into "cowboy" mode just because I'm carrying a gun. This is the fallicy in your line of thinking -- you believe that everyone who is carrying is a loose cannon looking for an excuse to draw down. That's complete, contrived bullshit. That's your "Hollywood" fantasy and you've allowed it to paint gun owners with a very broad brush. There are literally millions of us who carry concealed in the US every day. It very rare to ever hear about a situation where the person with the concealed weapon made a bad choice, acted inappropriately, or made a bad situation worse by the choices he/she made to use or not use their weapon. People who carry simply don't get into much trouble. We're law abiding citizens who carry on normal lives. In fact, because of the training the most of us go through in order to get our CCW permit, we're much more likely to understand when it's appropiate to us deadly force and when it isn't. We're more likely to be confident in a tense and potentially violent situation because we know that we have the ability to defend ourselves. There is no wild west mentality and a gun doesn't give any entitlement to false bravado. You are making completely baseless acusations to think otherwise.
In reply to: In reply to: You never know when your path may cross that of people who are planning to do evil. There's that paranoia again. In reply to: It may just be a case of bad timing -- you were in the bank the day and time the thieves planned their robbery. And again. In reply to: You just happened to be at school when an expelled student came back to even the score. And again. In reply to: You happen to be sitting in a religous service when some anti-whatever fanatic comes in shooting. And again. Wow, your imaginary world is fairly hopping with "evil" men who need to be killed by heroic "warriors" like you, huh?
There's nothing imaginary about it. These are real life situations that happen every week somewhere around the country. If you don't recognize the reality of these crimes then you're just not paying attention.
In reply to: In reply to: If you live in a country where you aren't allowed to prepare to defend yourself with a gun, then there's not much you can do. There it is again - you feel helpless without a gun. Me? Well, I'm still alive so I guess I'm not that helpless.
Helpless? Nope. But as I've mentioned, you have less tools in your tool box to use for self defense. A gun isn't necessary for survival in day to day life for most of us. But when it is necessary it sure is nice to have one...or several.
In reply to: In reply to: We are also the ones who you will turn to when the s--- hits the fan. When the bad guy starts shooting and all you have is a table to duck under and a ham sandwich to defend yourself with, you're the ones who start looking around for people like me. I'm the last person who hopes I get to use one of my guns in self defense, but I am fully prepared to do so. You really do have yourself down as a hero in waiting, don't you? If the s--- hits the proverbial, the LAST person I would want anywhere near me would be a trigger-happy paranoiac like you. The first priority in an emergency is not brassing up the baddies like rambo on viagra. Again, you are not going to make a double-tap one handed while jumping across a table. Firing a gun at people who also have guns is the one ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED way to get them shooting too, probably at you but probably not without hitting other people too. Please please please, if any such thing ever happens and I'm around - stay the f--- away from me, man. I'll take care of myself and anyone else I safely can. You can live out the horrible reality of your commando fantasy as far away from me as possible.
This is the most pitiful bullshit you've written all day. Again, you are falsely painting those who carry guns as "Rambo" and "heros in waiting," and you have no basis to support that portrail. None. I've been packing every day for several years and I have yet to draw my gun. But here's the part you choose to ignore -- I HOPE I NEVER DO. Millions of us carry every day -- there aren't rampant stories in the news about us crazy gun tottin' Rambo's who can't keep our fingers off the trigger. Nope. The only kind of news you hear about gun violence is that committed by criminals -- mostly criminals shooting someone who didn't have a gun with which to defend themselves. Not all victims could change the out come of the crime if they were carrying, but every time I read a news story about "so-and-so found dead" I can't help but wonder if the story would have had a different ending if they had the means to defend themselves. Maybe you don't have these kind of stories where you live, but someone makes the news nearly every day over here. I don't make this stuff up -- it really happens.
In reply to: In reply to: Don't you ever think about how the masacre at Columbine High School might have ended much sooner if just one teacher, or Principal, or the librarian would have been packing? No, but I often think how it might not have happened in the first place if your society wasn't saturated and obssessed with guns.
Again, I'm not letting you get away with that shit. There is no obsession with guns. They are just another tool with which can be used for good or bad. And, Trad, your last statement is just laughable coming from a guy who lives where you're located:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/...0,,2-1786945,00.html
Ed
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acacongua
Jun 27, 2006, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: It seems to me that America must be an extremely violent place, only American's are defending guns. This desire/need to play the self defence hero with a gun aparently does not exist in any other countries why is that? Could the NRA's lobbying power and influence have something to do with this?
In some countries, they have crime under control. For example, in Uganda, if you get caught in any crime, even if it's petty, the authorities shoot you on the spot.
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epic_ed
Jun 27, 2006, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: It seems to me that America must be an extremely violent place, only American's are defending guns. This desire/need to play the self defence hero with a gun aparently does not exist in any other countries why is that? Could the NRA's lobbying power and influence have something to do with this?
Refer to my above linked story. We're not the highest ranking country for violence, but violent crime most certainly occurs. It happens pretty much on par with other developed countries. Out of all the people I know who carry a gun, not a one of them has a need or desire to play a hero or act like a "cowboy". Your conclusion that those who carry guns have some sort of hero complex is baseless and false.
Ed
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epic_ed
Jun 27, 2006, 7:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If a criminal walks into the same store, walks up to the office and shoots the guy behind the desk, jumps over the counter and starts taking the money, then he's a murder and will likely kill the next person he feels he needs to to impress his sense of urgency on the rest of us. My first action is to find some cover, then I look for accomplices, not seeing any I draw my weapon and wait for a shot. (doing some movie BS about covering it with a news paper isn't a bad idea) how often does this happen?
Do you read the news? Or do you just ignore the scary stuff? Do I really need to do a basic Google search to find enough stories for you to make it real? How many stories do I need to find for you to reach your threshold for understanding that crime happens in every city every day? There's no need for you to run out and buy a gun if you don't feel like it, but let's not pretend that "bad guy" scenarios like this don't occur every day.
Ed
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kubi
Jun 27, 2006, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: If a criminal walks into the same store, walks up to the office and shoots the guy behind the desk, jumps over the counter and starts taking the money, then he's a murder and will likely kill the next person he feels he needs to to impress his sense of urgency on the rest of us. My first action is to find some cover, then I look for accomplices, not seeing any I draw my weapon and wait for a shot. (doing some movie BS about covering it with a news paper isn't a bad idea) how often does this happen? so far none. so far I'd rather carry 3lbs of metal on my belt and never need it, than need it and not have it.
I didn't mean how often does it happen to you, I meant how often does it happen, period.
Browsing the CDC it looks like there are 0.04 gunshot homicides per capita in the US per year. Compare that to 2.24 deaths/capita for heart disease and 2.0 for cancer.
This is why people are calling you guys paranoid....it's incredibly unlikely for you to be involved in a situation where your gun would be needed.
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dangle
Jun 27, 2006, 9:07 PM
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Sorry I'm so late to this dance, I had to deal with an old grenade I found in my lederhosen.
Is anybody's mind going to change here?
I would like to announce that, having sunk two and a half grand into a SOCOM II as bear protection and having medical problems with my shoulder, I now have several riot guns for sale.
If someone plans on climbing Zion (and bringing cash) they can bring back an excellent home defense weapon or three.
If its used you can try first.
Since becoming a 1911 aficionado I've barely shot some 9 and .40 handguns and might unload one or two as well.
send phone/email
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kubi
Jun 27, 2006, 9:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: If a criminal walks into the same store, walks up to the office and shoots the guy behind the desk, jumps over the counter and starts taking the money, then he's a murder and will likely kill the next person he feels he needs to to impress his sense of urgency on the rest of us. My first action is to find some cover, then I look for accomplices, not seeing any I draw my weapon and wait for a shot. (doing some movie BS about covering it with a news paper isn't a bad idea) how often does this happen? Do you read the news? Or do you just ignore the scary stuff? Do I really need to do a basic Google search to find enough stories for you to make it real? How many stories do I need to find for you to reach your threshold for understanding that crime happens in every city every day? There's no need for you to run out and buy a gun if you don't feel like it, but let's not pretend that "bad guy" scenarios like this don't occur every day. Ed
See my previous post ^^. I read the news, I understand the scary stuff...but I trust carefully compiled statistics more then counting news articles on teh intarwebs.
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