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deschamps1000
May 19, 2006, 8:10 PM
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Hi All,
I will be climbing in the Winds this summer with twin ropes for the first time. I have two questions...
1. When I am stacking/coiling the ropes over a knee/sling/etc. as my second follows, do I need to coil the two ropes individually, or is it okay if I coil it together. I'm worried that coiling them together will result in a clusterf*** of knots as the next leader leads the next pitch.
2. They are 8 mil ropes. Do I need a new belay device (I have an ATC)? Or can I just add an extra biner to the belay/rappel system?
Thanks
Eric
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bill413
May 19, 2006, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: 1. When I am stacking/coiling the ropes over a knee/sling/etc. as my second follows, do I need to coil the two ropes individually, or is it okay if I coil it together. I'm worried that coiling them together will result in a clusterf*** of knots as the next leader leads the next pitch.
If the the next pitch looks to be pretty straight, they can be coiled together. If either the pitch that is beingclimbed, or the next pitch is going to require that the ropes be fed differentially, then things should flow better if they are kept separate.
In reply to: 2. They are 8 mil ropes. Do I need a new belay device (I have an ATC)? Or can I just add an extra biner to the belay/rappel system?
8 sounds thinnish...but...
Whatever you use - test it in a controlled, non-life dependent situation before you head out! (I was once rudely surprised by how much force I had to use to hold a person on a reverso with thin ropes. Luckily, he wasn't aware of my discomfort.)
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daled
May 19, 2006, 9:09 PM
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If they are "twin" ropes you should almost NEVER have to feed out a single strand of rope since both ropes are going through each piece of pro.
Do you mean double ropes?
Dale
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davidji
May 19, 2006, 9:12 PM
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1. Stack them together. If you don't, you're creating a rope management headache for yourself.
2. Better to use a high friction device. DMM Bugette, Trango Jaws, ATC XP are all very good. Regular ATC should be fine for raps if you're careful. Part of being careful is this: if you're having trouble controlling the rap, stop and fix it before you go lower. It's only gonna get worse, and your hands will get more tired as well.
If you need a high friction device on rap, how much more do you need it on belay to catch a high fall-factor fall?
I finally heeded rgold's good advice and bought a belay/rap glove. I expect it will help even more when I actually start using it...
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vegastradguy
May 19, 2006, 10:16 PM
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definitely stack 'em together (except for the base of the first pitch, where you flake them seperately, this makes sure any twists/knots work themselves out before you leave the ground). i often will tie in after the leader finishes the first pitch and has pulled up the ropes when using twins or doubles, this makes sure that all twists are out of the ropes and they will stay kink and twist free for the whole climb.
i think an ATC is adequate, but an ATC-XP will definitely help in a big way, especially if you have never caught a fall on a thin line before.....
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papounet
May 19, 2006, 10:33 PM
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In reply to: definitely stack 'em together (except for the base of the first pitch, where you flake them seperately, this makes sure any twists/knots work themselves out before you leave the ground). i often will tie in after the leader finishes the first pitch and has pulled up the ropes when using twins or doubles, this makes sure that all twists are out of the ropes and they will stay kink and twist free for the whole climb.
In reply to: i think an ATC is adequate, but an ATC-XP will definitely help in a big way, especially if you have never caught a fall on a thin line before.....
8.1mm could be a double rope such as IceLine from béal, below 8mm, it is twin territory.
Reversino is a good alternative for managing thin ropes.
Gloves (even fingerless gloves) are a "must-have with thinner lines).
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theirishman
May 20, 2006, 3:21 AM
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reversino!!! im guessing its trad cause ur posting in the trad formus, if you dont have one already ull want one! awsome for twin lines (from expiereance) and the autblock will make you life easier!
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verticaltrip
Jun 1, 2006, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: If either the pitch that is being climbed, or the next pitch is going to require that the ropes be fed differentially, then things should flow better if they are kept separate.
when using twin ropes they should both be clipped to all pro, therefor the ropes should not be fed differently.
and personally i would get a ATC-XP
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angry
Jun 1, 2006, 10:11 PM
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Vegas was right about the management
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dirtineye
Jun 1, 2006, 10:34 PM
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In reply to: I got in a sort of arguement with a friend of mine recently. She insisted on using a plain ol' ATC on my 8mm ropes, even though I had a Buggette or a Paradox for her to choose from. Now I didn't get the route clean and she held me just fine she also managed to rap down safely. Still, I am VERY uncomfortable with this arrangement. Next time we climb together if she refuses to use the high friction devices, I'll scrap the twins and use a fat rope. Vegas was right about the management though.
damn right . you shoudl have beat her up for that, unless she was bigger and meaner than you.
I cannot believe anyone will use a regular ATC for small ropes. I did this ONCE. got a slight rope burn.
Then it was ATC XP for me (that rhymes!)
I caught a certain well known climbing about 20 times on verglass 8.1's , with my ATC XP, it was strange to not feel much of a pull in my brake hand, most of the pull is felt in the harness.
I didn't see any need for a glove whatsoever.
BTW, several people have given advice for doubles when the guy said twin. NOT GOOD.
Twins are ALWAYS clipped together, doubles are clipped separate, combo/twin double can be used as either but once you start you keep it the way you started for that pitch.
See how simple that is?
GOOD!
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billcoe_
Jun 2, 2006, 11:34 PM
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I'd seriously consider some of the suggestions above for the thinner atc. Reversino would be prime.
Last thing you want is rope running through your hands in the event of a leader fall!
edited to add I can't spell for beans.
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scrapedape
Jun 8, 2006, 4:13 PM
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At the end of the day, when you're coiling the ropes separately to stow away or prepare to rap, make sure to pull them out of the combined stack together. The easiest way to do this IMO is for you and your parter to each grab one and start coiling at the same time. Or, one person can flake them into two separate piles, alternating between which rope he's pulling out of the stack. If you pull the whole ropes out of the combined mess one at a time, you greatly increase your chances of a clusterfuck.
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bill413
Jun 8, 2006, 4:39 PM
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In reply to: BTW, several people have given advice for doubles when the guy said twin. NOT GOOD. Twins are ALWAYS clipped together, doubles are clipped separate, combo/twin double can be used as either but once you start you keep it the way you started for that pitch. |
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hugepedro
Jun 8, 2006, 6:37 PM
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Even with a Reversino, my 7.7mm twins can get a little frisky on rappel. I usually use 2 biners.
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catbird_seat
Jun 27, 2006, 1:21 AM
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On Saturday, I used 8.6 mm half ropes and a B-52 for rappel. Even with gloves and using two hands it was not comfortable. I'm kicking myself for not bringing my Trango Jaws device. That would have been the ticket.
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heiko
Jun 27, 2006, 12:46 PM
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I can hardly imagine a situation where I have enough time to stack the ropes individually - your second would have to be climbing veeeeery slowly. Or maybe I'm just a bit retarded. ;)
I have 8.1s in use with a normal reverso, usually I put in a second break biner for long/steep rapells.
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paulraphael
Jul 4, 2006, 12:05 AM
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In reply to: On Saturday, I used 8.6 mm half ropes and a B-52 for rappel. Even with gloves and using two hands it was not comfortable. I'm kicking myself for not bringing my Trango Jaws device. That would have been the ticket.
If you don't mind my asking, how big are you?
I'm about 185 lbs ... I have a B52 but have never used it with half ropes. One of the reasons I got the device was that Trango claims consistent braking force with different size ropes. I'm suspicious of this. Especially since it has a bit less friction than I'd like even with my 9.9mm.
I may be climbing with twin ropes this week, and am now considering bringing my jaws.
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degaine
Jul 4, 2006, 7:28 AM
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In reply to: On Saturday, I used 8.6 mm half ropes and a B-52 for rappel. Even with gloves and using two hands it was not comfortable. I'm kicking myself for not bringing my Trango Jaws device. That would have been the ticket.
On smaller mm ropes use a friction knot (auto-block):
www.chockstone.org/TechTips/prusik.htm
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roninthorne
Jul 4, 2006, 12:09 PM
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In reply to: On smaller mm ropes use a friction knot (auto-block): www.chockstone.org/TechTips/prusik.htm
That's just one more knot to tie incorrectly when exhausted, dark, confused, injured, ad infinitum. Works well when rapping, no debate there, but a bitchkitty if you're on belay.
Extra biner on the Reversino, gloves on soft hands... you should b e safe from there, just try the system BEFORE SOMEONE'S LIFE DEPENDS ON IT , as mentioned earlier.
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degaine
Jul 4, 2006, 12:20 PM
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roninthorne,
Reread my post and the part of catbird's that I quoted. Catbird was talking about being on rappel.
My suggestion to use the auto-block (an posting the link) was for a rappel.
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brutusofwyde
Jul 4, 2006, 3:21 PM
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In the Winds, I found my 50m x 8.1 twin/doubles to be the perfect combination. Add a Bugette and a 7-pound rack and you can do most of the routes up there. With a few more pieces on the wide end, make a side trip to Elephant's Perch in the Sawtooths and warm up on the Mountaineer's Route.
I wouldn't use a standard ATC or similar friction device on my twins under any circumstances, if I could possibly avoid it.
oh, and yes, stack the ropes together. Pay them out together. You'll be thankful you did, when it makes the difference between getting caught high on a ridge in the usual afternoon lightning storm, and being back safely in camp with the time you saved.
Brutus
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dirtineye
Jul 4, 2006, 3:37 PM
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So Brutus, are you climbing on PMI Verglass?
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brutusofwyde
Jul 7, 2006, 5:51 PM
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In reply to: So Brutus, are you climbing on PMI Verglass?
Beal 8.1 x 50m iceline as I recall, the only ones I could find in 50m lengths anymore.
Brutus
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notch
Jul 18, 2006, 11:13 PM
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In reply to: I will be climbing in the Winds this summer with twin ropes for the first time. |
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