that is not true imho.

if you implemented a more libelar gun legalislation (at least here) that would mean more guns in most homes. and that would mean...

the main criminal cause of death here is family homocide/suicide. that usually means that a drunk man comes home and either strangles hes partner and then hangs himself or hes partner stabs him. at least thats so with most of the cases where it comes to death/serious injury. sometimes the kinds bite the dust too. and in most cases, the police comes quickly enough to prevent the violence from escalating beyond control.

now put a gun in that situation. the man gets home, is totally pissed and instead of starting to threatend with beating and then beating and so on hes partner, he starts threatening with a gun. and before the police arrive he shoots hes spouse. and, you wont believe it, thats what actually happened in three such cases that i remember (one was a police officer and the other two were hunters).

and even when used for self defence (say on a street) they would probably just make things worse. now the worst thing that can happen to you is getting beat up a bit (even knives and sticks are EXTREMELY rare in a street robbery) and that can easily be avoided in most cases. but as soon as ppl would start carrying guns, you can bet that the punks (the most street crime in slovenia is due to the yougster who have nothing better to do) would too and you can bet that that would mean a serious escalation in violence, maybe even to the point where they would stop asking for the money and just shot you and ask later.

Those stats are part of the yearly official criminal statistic, published by the German police. If any source is reliable then this one. I could go on translating tables, put them into excel, jpg them and upload them to my homepage - it wouldn't matter to you anyway, so I abstain.

don't get your panties in a wad, I wasn't saying you were lying. Nor implying that the police are misreporting stats.

I was implying that people (many people) select statistics from the broad spectrum of available stats in order to support their position.

Naaah. I'm just aware of the fact that we live in two different cultures. Whatever I feel about 'my' world isn't necessarily be true in yours. I guess we both lack the experience of living in each others country (though I know a lot of Americans I've never been to the US), a final statement has to consider both sides.

That said, a lot of Americans who were in Europe for some time learned to appreciate the fact that it's pretty uncommon to face a barrel - in any way. Just be it the police officer who won't shoot you when you move your hands too fast - cause he knows you aren't fire armed.

And in the end: If you really are that unlucky to get involved in a robbery: a guy with a gun, who knows for absolutely sure you are unarmed, has no cause whatsoever to hurt you. Give him the f---ing wallet and go away with a story to tell your grandchildren...

- Daniel

mental experiment. ban guns. what happens?? all the law abiding citzens turn in their guns. Now you not only have only armed criminals, but you end up with eventually outlawing knives and having knife crime problems (UK right now). I'm waiting for the story about cricket bat crime :)

Do the criminals turn in their guns? if you didn't turn in your weapon at home and use it to defend your family if your house is broken into, are you prepared to face charges of illegal possesion of a firearm?

as a matter of fact, i dont believe that your statement (more guns=less crime) holds true even for the USA.

And that's exactly why?

i dont believe that your statement (more guns=less crime) holds true even for the USA.

Wasn't there a ban on private ownership of firearms instituted by Adolph Hitler in Germany in 1932?

Good move guys, THAT really cut down on violence....




Giving up your guns is foolish!

Wasn't there a ban on private ownership of firearms instituted by Adolph Hitler in Germany in 1932?

Good move guys, THAT really cut down on violence....




Giving up your guns is foolish!

Wasn't there a ban on private ownership of firearms instituted by Adolph Hitler in Germany in 1932?

Good move guys, THAT really cut down on violence....

That's why we put a ban on Hitlers after '45. Much more efficient...

Unfortunatly there's no ban on flawed arguments useing random facts of the Nazi time to underline dubious points. :roll:

- Daniel

Wherin lies the flaw of that fact? Is the flaw that it doesn't support your opinion? Hitler isn't the only example of how gun control works, Stalin was also a big fan. The Hutus also disarmed the Tootsies to the point that they were later able to come in and massacar thousands using machet'es even though the Hutus were armed to the teeth with military weapons, they virtually never had to fire a shot. Yup gun control works alright.

BTW that was in Rawanda in 1994 incase any of you don't remember...

and i wouldnt take kenneshaw, georgia, for a statistically valid sample.

you guys just dont get it, do you?

weve long stopped debating if banning guns in the USA would ba a good idea or not. thats not the cese me and tisar are arguing.

what tisar and i are trying to tell you that more guns doesnt equal less crime. we illustrated two cases where this holds true and i suspect it holds true even for the USA (even though new restrictive legalislation might have a really negative outcome, it doenst mean that more liberal legalislation would neccessary have a positive one). is that so hard to see or do we really need to draw a picture??

and i wouldnt take kenneshaw, georgia, for a statistically valid sample. its like sayig that because a girl ate chocolate and get rid of her zits, eating chocolate works wonders for your skin.

and the funny thing is... not one of you has come up with a valid argument why more guns=less crime in every country. and present and past dictatorships are not it.

Why not?

2003 Estimated population was 25,816. 48.9% male, 51.1% female. (National: 49.1, 50.9, respectively.)

42% aged 25-44. (National: 30.2)

Median income: Around $60,000 (2000 census.)

10% African-American. (National: 13.4%)

The few statistics that really stray vastly from the national norms is this:

6% Hispanic/Latino. (National: 12%.)

And this:

The number of violent crimes recorded by the FBI in 2003 was 23. The number of murders and homicides was 1. The violent crime rate was 0.9 per 1,000 people. (National: 4.65 violent offenses per 1000.)

Oh, yeah... this, too:

Received national attention for 1982 ordinance requiring each household to have a gun and ammunition.

Now, I'm not so sure we're willing to blame the lack of violence on the low percentage of Latinos, are we? ;)

Why not?

I've always discussed this thinking about the US only. That makes the ugly American I guess. Deal with it.

I will be happy to discuss that banning guns anywhere in the US (or everywhere) will not lead to less violent crime.

Where did this info come from?

Where does most census data come from, big guy? ;)

Why not?

2003 Estimated population was 25,816. 48.9% male, 51.1% female. (National: 49.1, 50.9, respectively.)

42% aged 25-44. (National: 30.2)

Median income: Around $60,000 (2000 census.)

10% African-American. (National: 13.4%)

The few statistics that really stray vastly from the national norms is this:

6% Hispanic/Latino. (National: 12%.)

And this:

The number of violent crimes recorded by the FBI in 2003 was 23. The number of murders and homicides was 1. The violent crime rate was 0.9 per 1,000 people. (National: 4.65 violent offenses per 1000.)

Oh, yeah... this, too:

Received national attention for 1982 ordinance requiring each household to have a gun and ammunition.

Now, I'm not so sure we're willing to blame the lack of violence on the low percentage of Latinos, are we? ;)

This has a lot of potential. The two big things I'd want to know before I'm convinced: 1) How has the violent crime rate changed since the 1982 ordinance took effect? 2) How have the accidental gun injury rates changed since then?

but otherwise, good find!

Thanks for the links. Honestly I'm not even going to bother reading any articles without good citations and statistics....this is just too touchy a subject. (take the first one, for example, "no homicides in 2001"....well what about 2000 and 2002?).

uh. All those stories compare Kennesaw in 1981 with Kennesaw in 1999....17 years after the law went into effect. Crime rate nationally dropped in those years, and crime in Atlanta very well may have dropped then, too (can't find any good statistics).

The skeptic in me thinks that the statistics I want to see (compare 1981 to 1982) are never cited because they don't support the pro-gun lobby.