|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
May 31, 2006, 3:05 PM
Post #26 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
In reply to: In reply to: IMHO people willing to stick their neck out and lead a route should ALWAYS have priority over top ropers. This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just doesn't give me the exhilaration of leading. BUT, it is not for everyone, and to claim that you are somehow entitled to more because you lead, just makes you an asshole. When ever I approach a group that has done this they have usually made accomodations for me. I dont' like when a whole section is taken over, but if you respect other people then they will respect you back. Josh
Yep, that's me MR. Arrogant Ignorant.
To tell you the truth you don't get onto a high horse by top roping. :twisted:
What's not for everyone, leading?
Maybe so, but not every cliff needs to be a top rope cliff either. There are plenty of cliffs and gyms where top roping endlessly is fully accepted.
The Gunks don't need to be one of them.
|
|
|
|
|
jammer
May 31, 2006, 3:06 PM
Post #27 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2002
Posts: 3472
|
It is obvious that the only climbers that are top roping are those just starting or those just out of the gym. Every area should have a designated section set aside for this. I have no idea if this has been talked about in any circles, but more and more people are climbing right out of a gym these days that it may become necessary to do so. Yes, they have every right to climb and learn.
That said, it appears that those who are camped at the base of the best climbs are those who have traveled a good distance to get there and are not willing to budge from their plans. Yet, as Josh has mentioned, even those who have hogged climbs in the past have asked me if I wanted to climb on their ropes. This not only shows me that most are willing to share, but that they do not understand the reason why we lead. To beginners, top roping is climbing and they are just as excited to be climbing TR as we are leading classics.
As I mentioned above, it may be up to each area to designate TR sections. This will also get them onto the next step in the evolution of climbing as they make their way to leading so they can experience the classics. If it is left wide open, then it is fair game to all. We can not, and should not, walk up to a group and spit out ethics that they have not heard of before and expect them to bow out. The only climbers that are to blame are the experienced climbers that brought them there in the first place. They should already have an understanding of climbing ethics under their belt if they are competent enough to be instructing others. If one is to approach a group, seek out the leader, take that person aside and talk to them about your desire to lead a climb they are hoarding. IF the leader does not accommodate you, then move on. If we, as experienced climbers, only bitch about it, we will get nowhere. All that can come from bitching are hotter heads that my explode on a hot muggy days when we have out eyes set on a special climb.
Time to think about how to solve this issue before it gets to a point where fights at the crag will be as common as route monopolizing.
jammer
|
|
|
|
|
crimpstrength
May 31, 2006, 3:19 PM
Post #28 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 285
|
jammer,
I think you are a little bit off base with the first comment you made. I have seen experienced climbers TRing popular climbs. The folks who TR on Ribs last fall were all experienced climbers, as a matter of fact, one was an off duty guide TRing with his friends.
Also, I am not thinking about this as fights. I know fights do break out, but for me, arguing is not an option. When the situation goes south, I am not ruining my day because I get into an arguement. I let it go and find something else to do.
Designated TR areas? I don't know about that one. I supposed it can work at the Gunks but.... blah
|
|
|
|
|
taino
May 31, 2006, 3:26 PM
Post #29 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: First off, I only make the trip to the Gunks on a weeday. Now I have a question. Last fall, Ribs at the Gunks. My brother led the first pitch, I followed. As he was leading, another group got to the base and told me they were going to follow us up, one of their guys leading behind us. Ok, no problem so far. We get to the top, set up our rap, do the first rap. We get to the second rap, at the top of the first pitch of ribs, and they have a TR set up. Their TR was set up through lockers attached to the anchors. We set up our rap through the chains and rapped down. When we got down, they had this huge attitude about us rapping on their TR. Where else should we have rapped? Were we wrong? Any opinions? I just got out the guidebook to look up what Mr. Williams has to say about it. He says that leaders have the right of way to rappellers. They were not leading though and there was no one on the route. Any ideas?
You were not wrong. And, you were wrong. One can TR off of bolts, but they should not interfere with the rappel function of the bolts. At the same time, I know many people who would absolutely not feel comfortable sharing an anchor with another party. Admittedly, it appears that there wasn't much you could have done - you had to get down, and they were in your way; TRing through the chains - even with biners - is extremely impolite, as that's what people use to rappel. Did you explain the situation to them, and come to an understanding - or did you simply say "screw them, we need to rappel"? Did you ask to rappel on their rope, since they were obviously using the very thing you needed to get down safely?
On Gunks.com, there's a very good article (LINK HERE) on this very thing written by AMGA Guide and Director of Mountain Skills Guide Service, Mike Cimino. It shows how to set up a TR on bolts such as you'd find at the Gunks, while leaving room for someone to rappel through. There's still the matter of sharing an anchor, but that's another issue.
T
|
|
|
|
|
jammer
May 31, 2006, 3:32 PM
Post #30 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2002
Posts: 3472
|
Yes, I may of not included those who are hangdoging routes they are trying to figure out ... my mistake, cause we all know they are out there. What I do see, in these cases, are that the climbs they are using are more then likely at a higher grade then the ones beginners climb; therefore, less apt to have someone waiting at the base. Then again, I have not climbed in too many areas outside of NH and VT. I have not yet had the privilege of meeting the NYC crowd that frequents the Gunks. When this changes, I may walk away with a better understanding as to what you are referring to.
I'm sure people are not ready to discuss the possibilities of this issue evolving into physical danger yet, but if this continues the course it is on, it's only a matter of time.
As for the designated TR areas, I was pointing to those who are out for their first days on real rock and feel "safer" on TR before they start to follow. We can not eliminate the issue totally, but we can work on it to help lessen the frequency.
|
|
|
|
|
crimpstrength
May 31, 2006, 3:34 PM
Post #31 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 285
|
taino,
they had lockers on the bolts as in the Gunks.com article but it was not threaded through the chain. It was getting dark. There was a climber on a variation of the route called ribless. We let our rope down and rapped. My brother rapped first and by the time I got on rap, the climber was at the top and began cleaning up their anchor. He told me to pull our rope and he would rap on his. So to put some details in for you - we did not dop our rope on the climber or his belayer. We did not ask however, it was getting dark and we were uncomfortable as it was our first time out that late. When we got down, they were just chilling and hanging out. We asked them the best place to eat in New Paltz. They suggested some places and we went our ways. No controntation about what happened. I think it was more of us thinking "what the fvck are they doing" and them thinking "what the fvck are they doing?"
|
|
|
|
|
taino
May 31, 2006, 3:59 PM
Post #32 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: It is obvious that the only climbers that are top roping are those just starting or those just out of the gym. Every area should have a designated section set aside for this. I have no idea if this has been talked about in any circles, but more and more people are climbing right out of a gym these days that it may become necessary to do so. Yes, they have every right to climb and learn.
Wow. That's a bold statement.
I guess that, since I TR - occassionally at the Gunks - that I'm just starting out, or just out of the gym, or something.
Oh, wait... I guess the DEC-NYS and the AMGA say otherwise.
There are several areas at the Gunks that are very well-known for being "TR areas"; they include the Guide's Wall (Northern Pillar, Fingerlocks or Cedar Box, Hyjeck's Horror, and Twin Oaks), and the majority of the routes in the Uberfall area. There are also pitches - such as Ribs/Ribless or Bunny/Retribution, that are frequently taken up by climbers who can't lead as hard as they can climb. That's just the way it is. Then, you've got guides who set up TRs on things like Jackie or Classic, for their clients.
The point is that there are hundreds of beautiful climbs in the Gunks. Don't get your sights set on climbing one of them without understanding that it might very well be taken. While your average TR-climber might be willing to pull their rope aside and let you climb through, very few guides are going to do it - we're being paid to make sure our clients get to climb as much as possible. And even the TRer might have protests if they're forced to wait while you lead through, then bring up your second, before they can move on to another route - especially if you lead them to believe that you'll be quick, and you're not.
If you're confident at the grade, ask if you can lead through; be nice and offer to trail their rope and set it back up as you pass, stuff like that. If you're not, ask if they'll be done soon - or move on to something else if you don't want to wait. Come back later, or the next time you're at the Gunks. No need to stress out over it - the rock will be there.
T
|
|
|
|
|
taino
May 31, 2006, 4:25 PM
Post #34 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: taino, they had lockers on the bolts as in the Gunks.com article but it was not threaded through the chain. It was getting dark. There was a climber on a variation of the route called ribless. We let our rope down and rapped. My brother rapped first and by the time I got on rap, the climber was at the top and began cleaning up their anchor. He told me to pull our rope and he would rap on his. So to put some details in for you - we did not dop our rope on the climber or his belayer. We did not ask however, it was getting dark and we were uncomfortable as it was our first time out that late. When we got down, they were just chilling and hanging out. We asked them the best place to eat in New Paltz. They suggested some places and we went our ways. No controntation about what happened. I think it was more of us thinking "what the fvck are they doing" and them thinking "what the fvck are they doing?"
Hmm. *shrug* Sounds fairly standard, actually. :) Glad there was no confrontation.
You had headlamps, right? ;)
T
|
|
|
|
|
taino
May 31, 2006, 4:35 PM
Post #35 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: In reply to: Wow. That's a bold statement. Naw, just my nOObness showing. I'm neither a guide or a TR climber, unless I'm seconding or in a party of three. I did mention that I have little experience outside of NH & VT. All I can talk about is what I have witness ... nothing more. I'll leave this thread up to the Gunk regulars who know this area. I was just trying to help find a solution to a growing problem .. good luck.
No worries, man. You should check out the Near Trapps on your next visit; not a lot of TRing going on there, for the most part.
There actually is a place near the Gunks (1.6 miles away, in fact) that is all single-pitch, and is perfect for TRing and learning to build gear anchors: Peterskill. However, when people journey to the Gunks, they don't usually plan to go to Peterskill; they want to climb at THE GUNKS!
FWIW, I suggest Peterskill to anyone who either doesn't lead or is just breaking into leading a specific grade; it's much more quiet (they only allow 70 people per day onsite), you can generally stay on a route longer since not many people are leading there, it's a perfect place to practice building gear anchors, and it's only one pitch with easy access to the top via a foot path.
T
|
|
|
|
|
pastprime
May 31, 2006, 4:46 PM
Post #36 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2005
Posts: 251
|
I think the ethic should be that the first people on the route have priority. A rope hanging on the route while the people are off doing something else shouldn't count as "people on the route". Unless they persons are climbing, or at the base putting on their shoes and setting up a belay, it shouldn't count as being on the route, and the route should be considered up for grabs for anyone who wants to climb it.
|
|
|
|
|
cchas
May 31, 2006, 5:09 PM
Post #37 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2005
Posts: 344
|
It's been a problem for a long time at the Gunks...... but .....consideration goes a long way. If the TR's were their first, they have every right to the route. If someone asks to lead through, they should be more then willing to pull the rope off to the side (ie: consideration) but thesecond group on the route (leader or top roper doesn't have any more or less right to the route.
Leaders who think they have any more right to a route should just get off their pompous high horse.
Now TR's should be careful also. TR'ing directly off of fixed gear is just wrong. Someone (or group) paid for the gear and TR'ing through the rings wear them unnecessarily early. Also they were placed for Rapping and if you are TRing on them, someone won't be able to rap.
My biggest complaint is when people throw the rope to TR without looking or giving warning and enough time for a leader to respond. I used to warm up the day by leading Fritchens Follies. A couple of times I've had ropes thrown down onto me :shock: :shock: before I had any gear in (which except for the camalot at the overlap, do you actually get any gear in....) Luckily, they've never peeled me off the route, but the person throwing the rope would always claim that noone ever leads it so I should also....... :x
|
|
|
|
|
crimpstrength
May 31, 2006, 5:26 PM
Post #38 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 285
|
In reply to: Leaders who think they have any more right to a route should just get off their pompous high horse.
pompous high horse???? are you out of your mind???
Dick Williams, The Climber's Guide To The Shawangunks The Trapps
page xvi.
Leaders have right of way at the Gunks.
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
May 31, 2006, 5:30 PM
Post #39 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
Well if someone wrote it in a book...then I guess that it must be true!
|
|
|
|
|
crimpstrength
May 31, 2006, 5:33 PM
Post #40 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 285
|
about it being in a book-
The guidebook seeks to create an understanding of the general practices and procedures at the area. This attempt makes it smoother for people who are unfamilar with the area, the ethics and the style. Isn't there a rule posted somewhere about climbing named arches in Arches NP? There is a rule in the guidebook that has established leaders have the right of way.
|
|
|
|
|
cchas
May 31, 2006, 5:35 PM
Post #41 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2005
Posts: 344
|
Ahhhh.... the quoting from the "Bible"....
As for the example of Arches,.... bad example. The guidebook is explaining what is the law and not ethics for those who aren't familiar with the specific laws (as an example... explaining that Skytop is offlimits). But how we treat other climbers, mom taught you that.
Get real, no one "owns" the cliff... except for the Preserve.. and if we act like children they can take that away from us.
Where I live now and climb (at Paradise Forks which is even more traditional then the gunks) I run into this all the time. People will set up raplines (since you rap into the canyon and climb out) or they set up a series of TR's. They will often set raplines or TR's on the routes that are .11d's or .12's not believing that someone will be leading them but often that is in my workout routine. I just ask if I can pull the rope off to the side and lead through and replace thier ropes. Often just a little politeness goes a long way......
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
May 31, 2006, 5:42 PM
Post #42 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
My point is that "rules" in guidebooks (short of being actual laws) are really just guidelines that point out the normally accepted practices of a particular area. As you can see from this debate here, someone's opinion in a book (that's what we're really talking about) is not the definite authority over mine or anyone else's ethical practices. I'm not sure if I agree that leaders or topropers have the right of way, but a little common sense goes a long way. Don't tie up the first pitch of a popular climb, or a common rap station, or routes that you aren't actively climbing. Let groups lead through or take a run on your rope if they ask and you can TR all day long as far as I'm concerned.
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
May 31, 2006, 6:37 PM
Post #43 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
If the area is being turned into a toprope wanker area, just pull the bolts. Make it harder to set up a TR anchor. If they actually have to use gear, they either won't do it, it'll take them longer to set up, or they won't be able to string 4 trs in no time.
|
|
|
|
|
lucander
Aug 11, 2006, 2:36 AM
Post #44 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 2, 2003
Posts: 274
|
Yes, it's a tremendous problem, no we will never find a solution to make everyone happy. My personal feeling is that although this place may be only a few hundred feet high at most, that it is still a trad crag. Like everywhere else that's not high or damned by foul weather, the Gunks are becoming "gymnified" as climbers seek to create an indoor experience that was initially designed to replicate an outdoor experience back into the out of doors. I strongly believe in leader's rights, especially at a crag with such deep traditions of this remarkable concept.
In Peace,
David L.
New Paltz, NY
ps: I will be damned the day that I lead Bunny (5.4) to set up Nosedive and Retribution (5.10). Those climbs, both allegedly well protected, will see me when and if I'm ready to walk up to them and climb them - onsight. When I fall, I have the convenient excuse of to many layers of greasy chalk on the good holds from lazy folks flailing on them.
|
|
|
|
|
crazygirl
Aug 11, 2006, 3:06 AM
Post #45 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 595
|
i've been on both sides of the equation.
some areas in the gunks have always been "gymnified". its not a new phenomenon. in fact, i've completely given up on trying to get on some of the popular climbs.
For those of you who have never climbed there: most routes have to be led first before a toprope can be set up.
Also, if someone took the time leading the climb, placing gear, etc to set up a toprope, they can't just pull the rope it to let someone else lead it.
and if i bring a bunch of beginners with me to toprope an easy climb, i'm not pulling no rope for nobody.
- so stop this 'leaders have a right of way' BS.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Aug 11, 2006, 4:25 AM
Post #46 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: If the area is being turned into a toprope wanker area, just pull the bolts. Make it harder to set up a TR anchor. If they actually have to use gear, they either won't do it, it'll take them longer to set up, or they won't be able to string 4 trs in no time.
Obviously, you have never been to the Gunks. :D
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Aug 15, 2006, 5:52 PM
Post #47 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: Also, if someone took the time leading the climb, placing gear, etc to set up a toprope, they can't just pull the rope it to let someone else lead it. - so stop this 'leaders have a right of way' BS.
Actually, that's not quite true.
They can. And sometimes, they will.
Two weeks ago, I wanted to climb V-3. When my partner and I got there, a guide from {a local guide service} had already set up a TR on it - but they had also set up TRs on Thin Slabs, and something else in the area. They weren't currently using the rope on V-3. I asked if they were going to be climbing it; the guide said "yes - but if you want to lead it, just pull the rope aside". I did, - after getting yelled at for "trying to pull his rope" (I wasn't) - and up we went. His group of nOObs went to climb Thin Slabs, instead. As my second was leaving the ground, another pair of climbers came by and expressed surprise and dismay that the TR was STILL hanging there; apparently, it'd been hanging there - unused - for nearly three hours.
He didn't seem to want to lose the availability of the climb, but acknowledged that since he wasn't on it, someone else should be able to use the route. He seemed quite annoyed when we finally came down, like we wasted his time by climbing the route. He was also TRing directly through the end of the chains, leaving us very few options for rappeling off.
So, in response to your "leaders don't have the right of way", check that at the door. At the Gunks, leaders DO have right-of-way - at least, unless you're actively using the rope on the route. Even the guide services acknowledge it, even if they don't like it. If you want to TR stuff with some newbie friends (and I do that, regularly), go to Peterskill.
T
|
|
|
|
|
crazygirl
Aug 15, 2006, 6:25 PM
Post #48 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 595
|
Perhaps you missed my point, T.
If a climbing party sets up few TR's, and leave one unused, its is polite to either, let someone use it, or pull it TO THE SIDE, to let them lead through.
Other than that, if someone sets up a toprope for other people in their group, they dont have to pull it for someone who wants to lead it.
Think about it:
I lead it, and my friend is toproping
or
You lead it, and you friend follows.
There is no difference. One does not have a right of way over another.
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Aug 15, 2006, 6:41 PM
Post #49 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: Perhaps you missed my point, T. If a climbing party sets up few TR's, and leave one unused, its is polite to either, let someone use it, or pull it TO THE SIDE, to let them lead through. Other than that, if someone sets up a toprope for other people in their group, they dont have to pull it for someone who wants to lead it. Think about it: I lead it, and my friend is toproping or You lead it, and you friend follows. There is no difference. One does not have a right of way over another.
I think we're in agreement, and I may have missed your point.
IMHO, if you (the colloquial "you") are actively using the route as a TR, then a leader doesn't have the right to come up and demand that you pull your rope aside and let them lead through. However, if you're not using a TR that's currently up, a leader has the right to request to lead through.
T
|
|
|
|
|
crazygirl
Aug 15, 2006, 6:50 PM
Post #50 of 59
(4840 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 595
|
yes.
i'd just like to add that sometimes people do set unused TR's and then don't let you get on that climb. I think thats unacceptable.
on another note, if someone is either leading or toproping, its best to just leave them alone. there is nothing worse than trying to concentrate on a climb when someone on the ground is expressing frustration that you take too long.
|
|
|
|
|
|
