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ter_bee
Aug 22, 2006, 7:21 PM
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what do you folks use in a smooth crack that gets wider as it comes out toward you, and closes completely in back? a met a few cracks like that at dip wall, RRG two days ago and ended up being way thankful that i wasn't leading.
if your answer is tricams, any advice about how to set them? that's what i would try (our fearless leader prefered camalots, though) but i look for a dimple for the stinger now that i have a little experience, and what if there isn't one? and how wide do you cam it?
ps. yes i did a search first.
pps. i did my first onsight trad lead on saturday! velveteen, sunnyside, muir valley, rrg. you could almost walk it, but i'm still proud.
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caughtinside
Aug 22, 2006, 7:33 PM
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when it's an even flare, smooth sides, with no variations and completely bottoming in back, things are pretty grim.
I've gotten cams in such flares, and have fallen on one, which held. The lobes in back were completely retracted, and the lobes in front about half way. #2 camalot. Not ideal.
offset nuts will work, but you need SOME kind of irregularity, constriction, etc for them to be worth anything. the sides of BD stoppers have a slant to them, I've used them sideways in slight flares before pretty effectively. Offset cams like hybrid aliens can work too.
The best bet is to really study the crack, to find the spot (may be quite small) where the flare widens and is actually parallel for a short bit, maybe even one inch. Maybe less. Cam it.
Flares are fun to climb because they are tricky/more insecure, but they generally suck to protect. If you find yourself climbing lots of flares (ie, jtree/yosemite) it is probably worth investing in offset gear. If it's only the occassional flared section you encounter, make do with what ya got, protect where you can.
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ter_bee
Aug 22, 2006, 9:40 PM
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thank you !
this is exactly the situation we were in, and the length of (not very deep, not very wide, smooth, flaring) problematic crack was of course at the crux. i would be nervous sticking a cam in that, and our leader was. she has a lot more experience than i do, though. she set two (three?) pieces which she didn't trust and, after much justifiable fretting, forced herself to pass the crux without falling. i didn't clean so i never got to see her placements.
this reinforces my idea that learning trad is difficult to do safely: i realize there are things i don't yet know how to do WHILE i'm climbing and need to do them. and it's really hard to anticipate the things you need to know when you've never seen the crack in question before. thank goodness for partners with more experience.
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caughtinside
Aug 22, 2006, 9:52 PM
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sure.
One thing I'd add, is that I really set cams. I tug them as much as I can when I put them in a flare, to be as sure as possible they won't skate.
Also, slinging long is mandatory, because you don't want to risk the cam rotating if it gets tugged on by the rope.
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sspssp
Aug 22, 2006, 10:03 PM
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In reply to: what do you folks use in a smooth crack that gets wider as it comes out toward you, and closes completely in back?
Hybrid Aliens
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renohandjams
Aug 23, 2006, 1:21 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: what do you folks use in a smooth crack that gets wider as it comes out toward you, and closes completely in back? Hybrid Aliens |
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sonso45
Aug 23, 2006, 1:28 AM
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I have used a nut placed sideways, esp if the nut flares a bit like my DMM wallnuts and the superlights. If you place it with a tug and it feels secure, it's more satisfying than a poorly set cam, at least for me. M
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crazyaboutclimbing500
Aug 23, 2006, 5:06 AM
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do the omega link cams works as well as the hybrid aliens?
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sick_climba
Aug 23, 2006, 6:22 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: what do you folks use in a smooth crack that gets wider as it comes out toward you, and closes completely in back? Hybrid Aliens |
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keithlester
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Aug 23, 2006, 2:15 PM
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Offset friends would appear to be the requisite solution to your protection predicament. I have the small one, about a size 1 and 2 combined and it has got me out of the exact same problem as that you describe, a flaring crack at a crux. I fell on it 3 times as it happens, and now I like it even more. :)
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j_ung
Aug 23, 2006, 4:30 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: what do you folks use in a smooth crack that gets wider as it comes out toward you, and closes completely in back? Hybrid Aliens
I'd rather use Hybrid Aliens than stick a wad of gum in the crack and tie off to it, but the gum is a close second. However, I agree that the offset cam suggestion is a good one, in general. Ter-bee, you have a options that don't involve buying gear from a company with questionable QC. Check out these instead.
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ctardi
Aug 23, 2006, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: what do you folks use in a smooth crack that gets wider as it comes out toward you, and closes completely in back? Hybrid Aliens I'd rather use Hybrid Aliens than stick a wad of gum in the crack and tie off to it, but the gum is a close second. However, I agree that the offset cam suggestion is a good one, in general. Ter-bee, you have a options that don't involve buying gear from a company with questionable QC. Check out these instead.
Sweet! I'd never seen those before!
Now if only I didn't just spend a thousand bucks on climbing gear...
Now, any reason why I can't find those on the wild country site?
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crazyaboutclimbing500
Aug 23, 2006, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: what do you folks use in a smooth crack that gets wider as it comes out toward you, and closes completely in back? Hybrid Aliens I'd rather use Hybrid Aliens than stick a wad of gum in the crack and tie off to it, but the gum is a close second. However, I agree that the offset cam suggestion is a good one, in general. Ter-bee, you have a options that don't involve buying gear from a company with questionable QC. Check out these instead. Sweet! I'd never seen those before! Now if only I didn't just spend a thousand bucks on climbing gear... Now, any reason why I can't find those on the wild country site?
They're also difficult to find on the mtntools website
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saxfiend
Aug 23, 2006, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: pps. i did my first onsight trad lead on saturday! velveteen, sunnyside, muir valley, rrg. you could almost walk it, but i'm still proud.
JL
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svilnit
Aug 23, 2006, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: what do you folks use in a smooth crack that gets wider as it comes out toward you, and closes completely in back? Hybrid Aliens I'd rather use Hybrid Aliens than stick a wad of gum in the crack and tie off to it, but the gum is a close second. However, I agree that the offset cam suggestion is a good one, in general. Ter-bee, you have a options that don't involve buying gear from a company with questionable QC. Check out these instead.
^^^^^^
Definite Trophy Material
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ter_bee
Aug 23, 2006, 8:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: pps. i did my first onsight trad lead on saturday! velveteen, sunnyside, muir valley, rrg. you could almost walk it, but i'm still proud. Since nobody else has said it yet -- congratulations on your onsight! You have every right to be proud! JL
thank you! (i love your dog.) we chose (more or less by accident and because it was raining) the 5.5 trad route with the most stars at the red. and it was very fun, but i was skeert.
jay, THANK YOU for addressing the lingering concern that i have felt too stupid to address (in your typically vivid manner): CCH seems to be taking these quality control concerns seriously (now), but are they really? why does the recall include aliens sold AFTER a certain date? If I buy hybrid aliens right now, could they have the pernicious dimple? and what about this new accident with the dimple-less alien? hysteria or evidence?
the odd thing is that every post i read before the dimple problem arose said essentially: buy camalot c4s for large cracks and aliens for small. the same reco, over and over. so i thought i would know what to do. but i don't.
buy the competitor, or wait and judge later?
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renohandjams
Aug 23, 2006, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: what do you folks use in a smooth crack that gets wider as it comes out toward you, and closes completely in back? Hybrid Aliens I'd rather use Hybrid Aliens than stick a wad of gum in the crack and tie off to it, but the gum is a close second. However, I agree that the offset cam suggestion is a good one, in general. Ter-bee, you have a options that don't involve buying gear from a company with questionable QC. Check out these instead. |
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ter_bee
Aug 23, 2006, 9:34 PM
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so are you saying there's no alternative to alien hybrids?
i just read a good chunk of the alien failure thread and realized that my questions about dimples and alien safety are a bit too involved for a subtopic.
one clear fact: i should have started trad climbing in 2003.
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renohandjams
Aug 23, 2006, 9:39 PM
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I confirmed my suspisions. They are not in stock. Mtntools says they have not sold them for 5 years. That page should not be coming up anymore. So nobody can buy offest friends unless they are used.
Just FYI. Hybrids are the only offset cam that is currently being produced.
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renohandjams
Aug 23, 2006, 9:46 PM
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In reply to: so are you saying there's no alternative to alien hybrids? i just read a good chunk of the alien failure thread and realized that my questions about dimples and alien safety are a bit too involved for a subtopic. one clear fact: i should have started trad climbing in 2003. |
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dan_gerous1
Sep 1, 2006, 5:18 AM
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The concept of hybrid aliens seems to be the best solution for even cam contact in flaring cracks, but be aware that cch is having some issues with q.c. on some non hybrid versions.
That said, I would want to load test the hybrids before trusting for a fall.
see this as well for a scientific anaylsis of fall forces http://www.amrg.org/Rope_system_analysis_Attaway.pdf
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