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j_ung
Sep 11, 2006, 9:22 PM
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You're right, dingus. Flying Spaghetti Monster made them that way. :wink: :P
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dynoho
Sep 11, 2006, 10:28 PM
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It's not a problem to run through rattlesnake country, as long as you do so very, VERY quickly.
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redlegrangerone
Sep 11, 2006, 11:00 PM
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Well Dingus, maybe the eastern rattlesnakes are not as EVOLVED as our western rattlesnakes. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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scotchie
Sep 11, 2006, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I attended a seminar on lizards and snakes of the desert a few weeks ago. The snake expert did mention that rattlesnakes are learning to not rattle. It is an evolutionary process. Not only does a rattle say to back off, it also says to a bigger predator "Here I am, come eat me". The ones that rattle do not survive, so the non rattling trait is passed on. I don't buy it, not for a minute. DMT
In Nathaniel Philbrick's "In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex", the author points out that there is a skeleton of a whale in a Nantucket, MA museum which is significantly larger than any whale of the same species sighted in recent memory. He theorizes that the whale hunting trade caused whales to be selected for smaller size, so that they would be of less use to humans. I have read other books that talk about a similar unintentional artificial selection process for other species.
It seems feasible that populations of rattlesnakes living nearby humans could be artificially selected for certain behaviors.
If you want proof, then I don't think it's going to happen.
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jeff_m
Sep 11, 2006, 11:27 PM
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A doctor who recently retired out here said he'd seen about 40 rattlesnake bites over the years, but only one of them was "legitimate" (i.e. a hiker accidently stepped on its tail and it bit her on the ankle). Just about all the rest were teenage to early 20s males, inebriated in one way or another, that got bit on the hand or arm. ("Hey watch me catch this--hiccup!--rattler!")
Rattlesnakes spend a lot of time lounging in the sun. The only times I've been struck at was when I was trail running, and while scary, it's more a warning than an "attack."(A lot of times they're not in position to rattle effectively, which means you won't hear anything until they've moved away and curled up---I 'd never heard the"rattling less/evolutionary theory" before....) They would much rather get out of the way and go hide. Right now in the west is another breeding/hatching cycle and the last two year's rains have increased the food supply, which is why we're seeing more than usual. (I've come across three in the last two weeks.)
This was near the The Brickyard last week:
http://www.citycg.com/DSCN6801.jpg
Just leave them alone. (AND STOP PEEING ON THEM!) :twisted:
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dingus
Sep 11, 2006, 11:57 PM
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In reply to: If you want proof, then I don't think it's going to happen.
I don't want anything. I just don't believe bullshit stories about snakes. People say the worst things about snakes. That whale tale of yours sounds fishy too.
DMT
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ratmnerd
Sep 12, 2006, 12:10 AM
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Dingus - it's a form of natural selection. It's more behavioral than genetic, but still a form thereof. Sure sounds plausible to me.
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dingus
Sep 12, 2006, 12:26 AM
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For this ridiculous theory to have any credibility a 'snake expert' (haha) would have to demonstrate that rattlesnake populations in close proximity to humans rattle less, when provoked, than do their wilderness counterparts, given the same stimuli.
If you find a silent rattler say deep in the western Last Chance Range or some other extremely remote area, and you attribute that silence to human-induced natural selection, well, I have an English bridge in Arizona I need to sell you.
DMT
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phugganut
Sep 12, 2006, 1:04 AM
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In reply to: ... well, I have an English bridge in Arizona I need to sell you. DMT
Yeah, like there is an English bridge in Arizona. C'mon man we're not that gullible!
Anyway, back to rattlesnakes and rednecks...
Last year my friend Manny put up a first ascent of a dihedral at Isolation Canyon. LAter that day I did the second ascent and towards the top saw a section of old climbing rope jammed deep in the crack. For no particular reason I grabbed a stick and started poking it in the crack to work the rope out. As I was sticking it in I thought: "If he just did the FA, how could there be an old rope jammed in the crack?" About that time the stick touched the "rope" which started crawling around in the crack a few inches above my hand jam. I got a good look at a small rattler that was not very happy with my poking it with a stick. If I was a smart man I would have immediately moved on. However, I instead hung out, on lead and a good 15' above my last piece, and watched it, yelling down to my belayer with the blow by blow each time it moved a little more. The rattler never tried to strike though; it just kept trying to move deeper in the crack.
-Mike
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scotchie
Sep 12, 2006, 1:27 AM
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I've seen snakes slither in front of me a couple of times, and some that have rattled at me.
On one of those days I saw a couple people with IPod's on, who jogged or mountain biked right past me. When I talked to them later, they had no idea that there were snakes on the trail. They went right by the snakes without even noticing.
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talnlnky
Sep 12, 2006, 6:13 AM
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dingus...
your experiment would be flawed. Snakes have other predators than just humans. Thus, proximity to humans wouldn't exactly prove or disprove anything.
furthermore, natural selection is a REAL thing, its not something thats debatable like evolution. There's a reason why people of equatorial region ancestry (ie. mid-northern african) have a very high rate of sickle-cell. Its because those who carry the sickle-cell gene/trait are immune to malaria. Thus they were less likely to die from disease.
natural selection is one of the main concepts in 100 level biology in college as well as first year biology in high school.
now... in my 23yrs, i've yet to ever see a rattle snake outdoors... that was alive. Have seen plenty of snakes, including some beefy bull snakes (which look like rattle snakes minus the rattle) but never a rattler.
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azrockclimber
Sep 12, 2006, 11:38 AM
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awesome rattler picture!! ( grayghost pg 1)
look at that guy!! :shock:
totally bad-ass
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azrockclimber
Sep 12, 2006, 11:41 AM
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awesome picture!!
look at this guy!!! :shock:
totally bad-ass
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svilnit
Sep 12, 2006, 12:49 PM
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In reply to: For this ridiculous theory to have any credibility a 'snake expert' (haha) would have to demonstrate that rattlesnake populations in close proximity to humans rattle less, when provoked, than do their wilderness counterparts, given the same stimuli. If you find a silent rattler say deep in the western Last Chance Range or some other extremely remote area, and you attribute that silence to human-induced natural selection, well, I have an English bridge in Arizona I need to sell you. DMT
Dingus, I know you aren't a fan of the rating system. But that, my friend, was a trophy post :)
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dingus
Sep 12, 2006, 1:07 PM
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In reply to: dingus... your experiment would be flawed. Snakes have other predators than just humans. Thus, proximity to humans wouldn't exactly prove or disprove anything.
OK, let's think this through for a minute. Why do rattlesnakes have rattles do you suppose? I've heard it suggested it is a defensive mechanism to warn off danger. What danger? Predators and those who might step on them is my guess.
For your point to have any merit you're not only going to have to demonstrate natural selection of silent rattlers you're now going to have to show that predation of rattlesnakes oby other wild animals has undergone some fundamental change in the very recent past to account for this rather remarkable idea.
So talnkny, how have rattlesnake predators changed their ways, in the last 200 years no less, to encourage this natural selection of silent rattlers?
DMT
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dingus
Sep 12, 2006, 1:12 PM
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In reply to: furthermore, natural selection is a REAL thing, its not something thats debatable like evolution.
That is very comforting. My world is once again righted. Now please explain is detail how silent rattlers got selected again? You know, those snakes you've never even seen in the wild (an experience I assure you, echoed by the vast majority of climbers, snake-aphobes included)?
In reply to: natural selection is one of the main concepts in 100 level biology in college as well as first year biology in high school.
You DON'T SAY!!!111
In reply to: now... in my 23yrs, i've yet to ever see a rattle snake outdoors...
Its a rattlensake, one word. And I've seen them. Saw three in one day this spring. Got buzzed by one of them. It does produce the willies I must admit.
DMT
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cchildre
Sep 12, 2006, 2:26 PM
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Funny thing about rattlesnakes! In many cases, you will walk down the trail past several hidden along side and never even know you did. If you have seen 10 then you have probably past well over a hundred. They only rattle when they feel threatened, and most times they just see you as a passer by and don't want to attract the attention.
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saxfiend
Sep 12, 2006, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: In the deep south rattlers are a problem but you often times see copperheads. 2 quick run-ins I had: 1) I had taken a friend climbing to teach him how to lead. We went to Jamestown in Alabama and did an easy route called Birthday Suit. I lead it up and placed lots of gear so he could see all the various placements. At the top I tied into a huge tree and just laid back against it watching the moring sun come through the trees. As he was coming up I was looking around and off to my left maybe 10 feet was the largest copperhead I have ever seen. He obviously came out to warm himself but man he so big I couldn't believe it. If I had not been tied in it wouldn't have been so bad as I could have easily moved off but I did encourage my partner to hurry up. 2) At Foster Falls in TN I was stick-clipped to a bolt on a route on Sanford Wall. As I was getting ready to step on to the wall I stepped in some leaves at the base. At that moment a copperhead stuck his head up at me like he was saying "Who the freak woke me up?" It was quite a sight seeing me run back as fast as I could and consequently my belayer being pulled into the rock towards the snake. Mark
One thing I did see at Jamestown that you don't see every day -- a coyote!
JL
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saxfiend
Sep 12, 2006, 3:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I've heard stories about them learning not to rattle recently. They appear to be rather intelligent, and have learned that rattling generally gets them killed. You cannot be serious??? Perhaps you can tell me how a snake would learn this lesson? Rattlesnake school? Watched its momma get stomped by some stupid snake hater named Billy Bob? What? How's a good rattlesnake to learn not to rattle? DMT
I'm with you Dingus, rattlesnakes learning not to rattle is about as likely as rattlesnakes learning not to bite passing climbers! :P
JL
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pastprime
Sep 12, 2006, 3:41 PM
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A friend of mine was climbing in Little Cottonwood Canyon several years ago, and as he pulled up to mantle onto a narrow ledge, found himself face to face (about a foot away, he said) with a rattler that seemed as surprised to see him as he was to see it. He immediately pushed off and let go, and after recovering, traversed over and took another route up.
I've seen a lot of rattlers over the years, and have not noticed any difference in rattlyness in the areas I frequent. Some do and some don't.
I did see a PBS special recently that said in areas of the south where for many years they have been holding big rattlesnake drives and festivals, with sometimes a few hundred people covering large areas of the region catching every snake they encounter, that there has been a definite reduction in the percentage of snakes that rattle as someone passes by, and they attribute this to the snakes with tendency to remain silent being more likely to remain in the gene pool than the ones who announce their presence to their eager would be captors.
I don't think it has anything to do with predatory animals, which are probably less likely to try to eat a snake that is rattling aggressively than one that is trying to flee; and I never imagined anyone was saying the reduced tendency to rattle found in those populations found in the areas affected by massive snake gathering drives, would in any way affect, say, the frequency of rattling by snakes in the Mojave desert.
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pastprime
Sep 12, 2006, 5:34 PM
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As an aside on this topic, I was talking with Dick Dorworth (interesting guy, anything he writes or says is worth listening to) a few years ago about how we are so much limited by what we believe is possible, and the possibility that practice to develop a skill is, as much as anything else, a process of gradually convincing our minds that something is possible that we could have done immediately if we had only believed we could.
He told of a time when he was backpacking in the Grand Canyon with a 60 pound pack on his back, stepped off a small ledge next to a startled rattlesnake, and jumped sideways and upwards about 9 feet. His tracks in the soft sand were clear indicators of where he had taken off and where he had landed, and when he tried a few minutes later to duplicate the jump, he couldn't do it even without the pack.
One could attribute this to adrenaline, but my understanding is that it takes a few seconds for adrenaline to be created and released; and in any case, it is still ones own body doing something one did not previously think possible, and that couldn't be duplicated when the conscious mind was engaged.
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colkurtz
Sep 12, 2006, 5:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: dingus... your experiment would be flawed. Snakes have other predators than just humans. Thus, proximity to humans wouldn't exactly prove or disprove anything. OK, let's think this through for a minute. Why do rattlesnakes have rattles do you suppose? I've heard it suggested it is a defensive mechanism to warn off danger. What danger? Predators and those who might step on them is my guess. For your point to have any merit you're not only going to have to demonstrate natural selection of silent rattlers you're now going to have to show that predation of rattlesnakes oby other wild animals has undergone some fundamental change in the very recent past to account for this rather remarkable idea. So talnkny, how have rattlesnake predators changed their ways, in the last 200 years no less, to encourage this natural selection of silent rattlers? DMT
well santa catalina island ratllesnakes have no rattle. i believe it was the jeff corwin show (or one like it) which publicized this evolution of losing the rattle.
anyhow it is possible that humans could have forced the evolution in some areas/subspecies
unless you have a good explanation of how the rattle evolved then i wouldn't shoot down all the theories of how it may have or could evolve away
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dingus
Sep 12, 2006, 7:00 PM
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[quote="colkurtz"]anyhow it is possible that humans could have forced the evolution in some areas/subspeciesIn reply to: And its possible that the Santa Catalina rattlers FLEW there too. In reply to: unless you have a good explanation of how the rattle evolved then i wouldn't shoot down all the theories of how it may have or could evolve away I don't care if you shoot it down or not. Snakes are unaffected by opinions, however ridiculous they may appear. DMT
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