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crazyaboutclimbing500
Aug 24, 2006, 5:26 AM
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I just recently discovered the many advantages to using a cordelette for building anchors but I have a couple questions...
Can I just use a water knot to tie the ends together? Also, is there any quick way to rack it when you are taking out your anchor to get ready to climb again?
Any comments would be appreciated, flame me if you want, I don't care, but if someone wouldn't mind helping me that'd be great.
Thanks,
Daniel
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ctardi
Aug 24, 2006, 6:31 AM
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No, don't use a water knot. Use a double fisherman's.
http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/...herman/fisherman.htm
As for racking it, I start by folding it up so it's about a foot long. Then fold in half. Then take about a foot of it and wrap that around the bundle towards center, and stick the end though, now you have a spot to clip it in by. (Photos tomorrow)
Edit: to fix the url
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zeroion
Aug 24, 2006, 7:50 AM
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In reply to: As for racking it, I start by folding it up so it's about a foot long. Then fold in half. Then take about a foot of it and wrap that around the bundle towards center, and stick the end though, now you have a spot to clip it in by.
That actually sounds somewhat like the butterfly coil...
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jeffo
Aug 24, 2006, 11:42 AM
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Hey 500,
Tardi is right...use a double or even triple fishermans to secure the ends of your cordolette. (Note: A water knot is unique to webbing not cord because it allows the webbing to remain flat).
For racking it....there are many methods. My preferred one is to fold it over several times and "work it" until its all even in a nice round circles then I just tie and overhand knot in the whole works and rack it.
Cheers,
J
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sweetchuck
Aug 24, 2006, 12:03 PM
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Hey, this was my noob question a year ago. First I was made fun of for using thick old 7mm cordage for my cordelette. They have this 5.5 mm tech cord that is super strong, light and non bulky that’s nice for cordelettes. I got some now. It looks a little skinny, and I always feel I have to assure my climbing partner that it is tech cord. At any rate, I rack it (per my noob advise), by, well, it’s simple but hard to describe, I give it a half twist into an 8 shape, fold it over into one doubled loop, and repeat. When I have about a foot length of many loops I snap a biner through one end of the loop and take the other end and twist it several times and clip it to the biner too. It stays small, compact and comes out clean. Probably doesn’t work as well with 7mm. If you haven’t yet, you might want to take a look at all the hot air that has been let out about the limitations of the cordelette, equalization vs. redundancy vs. no extension, and the status of the myth of shock loading. I’m not sure I’ve made any conclusions after reading about all that, but I think it has made me a more informed climber and better positioned to make good anchor choices, and know the limitations.
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ericbeyeler
Aug 24, 2006, 1:12 PM
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See this recent thread for using alternatives to the cordelette. The cordelette really doesn't equalize much and sucks for directional changes.
I use the equalette/duoglide. I basically fold the pretied cord in half then do an overhand or 8 on the whole thing, then clip to harness.
Eric
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ctardi
Aug 24, 2006, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: As for racking it, I start by folding it up so it's about a foot long. Then fold in half. Then take about a foot of it and wrap that around the bundle towards center, and stick the end though, now you have a spot to clip it in by. That actually sounds somewhat like the butterfly coil...
A very very small one...
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knudenoggin
Sep 16, 2006, 3:33 AM
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This site has the component Dlb.Overhand (Strangle) knots in opposite handedness,
NOT the better way to make a Grapevine Bend--they should be the same,
which results in a better dressed/aligned knot.
(I see that [uh-oh, Dirt ALERT ! :-] the site presents the "Cowboy/Left-handed"
Bowline. [MORE] Egads, contradicting Dirt's "the weakest bend" they
give the "Overhand" (Offset Overhand, aka "EDK") a 70% strength rating!!
--so, too, the REEF/Square knot (70%, i.e.)!! Holy hallucination, Bat Folks!
Hmmm, some other dubious information here ... .
But on the bright side, some great photos in the biking section!!)
But I can concur in "don't use a ..." and STOP right there: don't tie the ends
together, period--just run them out through the powerpoint knot!
(or, there, you can join them in a simple, material-efficient EDK (Offset Overhand Bend),
as a back-up stopper).
*knudeNoggin*
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alx
Sep 19, 2006, 6:16 PM
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I used to use Tech Cord for cordalette but have gone back to 7mm nylon. The reason being that Tech Cord has a much shorter life according to test results I've seen. If you do use Tech Cord it should be replaced every year and tied with a triple Fishermans knot (it's slippery stuff).
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jimdavis
Sep 22, 2006, 1:11 AM
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In reply to: Hey 500, Tardi is right...use a double or even triple fishermans to secure the ends of your cordolette. (Note: A water knot is unique to webbing not cord because it allows the webbing to remain flat). J
J, the tripple offers no advantage in 7mm nylon...it just bulks up your cordelette and shortens it down. A double with long tails is one of the best ways to do it.
Tripples in tech cord are not absolutly nescessary, but they do add a little bit to it's failure strength. It'd be better off if people regularly checked how long their tails were on their cord, rather than use tripple fishermans.
Cheers,
Jim
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sick_climba
Sep 22, 2006, 1:39 AM
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In reply to: No, don't use a water knot. Use a double fisherman's. http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/...herman/fisherman.htm As for racking it, I start by folding it up so it's about a foot long. Then fold in half. Then take about a foot of it and wrap that around the bundle towards center, and stick the end though, now you have a spot to clip it in by. (Photos tomorrow) Edit: to fix the url |
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crazyaboutclimbing500
Sep 22, 2006, 5:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: No, don't use a water knot. Use a double fisherman's. http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/...herman/fisherman.htm As for racking it, I start by folding it up so it's about a foot long. Then fold in half. Then take about a foot of it and wrap that around the bundle towards center, and stick the end though, now you have a spot to clip it in by. (Photos tomorrow) Edit: to fix the url ello here is a question, I was taught how to set up trad anchors by a climber of like 15 years experiance, and a total trad man that it was also good to use an overhand knot. It sticks and is easy to untie. My cordelette is stuck in the double fishermans knot so i use that any way but is the overhand exceptable
I'm not the guy to ask because I don't know... but I would think an eight knot would be safer, and it's not that much harder at all to die an eight knot as opposed to an overhand...
-Daniel
____________________
"I thought you said there was a walk-off!?!?"
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csproul
Sep 22, 2006, 2:19 PM
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I don't have any data to back this up, but I have climbed with a couple of AMGA guides who keep their cords (nylon, not tech cord) untied and tie a simple overhand knot to join it when building anchors. If tying off a power point then only one leg would be at risk if the knot came undone. Their reasoning was this allowed more flexibility in the length of the cordolette and allowed them to more easily chop parts of it off to build bail/rap anchors. I use tech cord with a triple fishermans, so I have not tried this.
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jimdavis
Sep 22, 2006, 2:38 PM
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In reply to: I don't have any data to back this up, but I have climbed with a couple of AMGA guides who keep their cords (nylon, not tech cord) untied and tie a simple overhand knot to join it when building anchors. If tying off a power point then only one leg would be at risk if the knot came undone. Their reasoning was this allowed more flexibility in the length of the cordolette and allowed them to more easily chop parts of it off to build bail/rap anchors. I use tech cord with a triple fishermans, so I have not tried this.
I know a few that do that also, especially in ice season. As long as you leave the tails long, I'd feel ok with using it, most of the time.
Jim
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deltav
Sep 22, 2006, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: I don't have any data to back this up, but I have climbed with a couple of AMGA guides who keep their cords (nylon, not tech cord) untied and tie a simple overhand knot to join it when building anchors. If tying off a power point then only one leg would be at risk if the knot came undone. Their reasoning was this allowed more flexibility in the length of the cordolette and allowed them to more easily chop parts of it off to build bail/rap anchors. I use tech cord with a triple fishermans, so I have not tried this.
I was taught this by AMGA as well, don't really feel comfortable with it, but have used it on occasions with no ill effects.
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catbird_seat
Sep 22, 2006, 4:24 PM
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FWIW, my preferred way to rack my 20 foot long 5.5 mm cordellette is to double it into a coil, double it again so it's a four strand coil. Pinch it into a linear bundle. Move the knot to one end. Tie a figure eight knot to bind the eight strands together and clip it to my harness. I've tried every which way including the twist method and mine is the fastest way I've tried and racks with the least bulk. I comes out almost exactly the same length as a tripled alpine draw.
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grampacharlie
Sep 22, 2006, 4:49 PM
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alx Posted: 19 Sep 2006 11:16 Post subject: Re: cordelette
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I used to use Tech Cord for cordalette but have gone back to 7mm nylon. The reason being that Tech Cord has a much shorter life according to test results I've seen. If you do use Tech Cord it should be replaced every year and tied with a triple Fishermans knot (it's slippery stuff).
I read an independant study last year (and the data may be older than that) that tech cord in whatever form you choose to use it is weakened substantialy by knots and repeated bending/straightening. I beleive that the report said up to 50% in pull and drop tests, but I could be wrong on the exact numbers.
I do know that after reading the report, (and i'll try to find it when I get time and post it) my understanding was that 7 mm nylon cord was the most durable and retained its strength better than anything else, save 1 inch tubular webbing(bulky for cordelettes).
On a side note, water knots are ok for webbing, and I've used them on cords as well with no problems, but they can pull through after repeatedly weighting and unweighting if the tails are not long enough. Water knots in cord and webbing should not be left in as permanant fixtures, or checked before each use. This goes for webbing and cord.
Double fishermans are more difficult to get out, but will not pull through like the water knot can.
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timm
Sep 22, 2006, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't have any data to back this up, but I have climbed with a couple of AMGA guides who keep their cords (nylon, not tech cord) untied and tie a simple overhand knot to join it when building anchors. If tying off a power point then only one leg would be at risk if the knot came undone. Their reasoning was this allowed more flexibility in the length of the cordolette and allowed them to more easily chop parts of it off to build bail/rap anchors. I use tech cord with a triple fishermans, so I have not tried this. I was taught this by AMGA as well, don't really feel comfortable with it, but have used it on occasions with no ill effects.
Hmmm. I was taught just the opposite by my AMGA instructor. He highly discouraged the flat overhand knot method of joining a cordlette. But, I do untie my cordlettes enough so that the double fisherman knot that I use to join my cordlettes never gets too tight.
In reply to: Actually, this is a good example of why to switch to an equalette. (But why would they cut up their cord instead of leaving some slings?)
Generally when I am guiding multipitch routes, I carry at least 50 feet of 1/2" webbing and rap rings in the event I am forced to build my own rap anchors for descents, emergencies, etc. I will only cut up my cords or use them as rap anchors when I run out of webbing or don't have enough webbing to sling a large block, etc.
Cheers.
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csproul
Sep 22, 2006, 5:28 PM
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Hey timm
That's interesting. I was first shown this practice by SP Parker from the Sierra Mtn Center. Judging by your location, I'm guessing you know who he is? I don't normally leave my cords untied, just because I have never encountered a reason that I needed to do so.
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timm
Sep 22, 2006, 5:48 PM
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In reply to: Hey timm That's interesting. I was first shown this practice by SP Parker from the Sierra Mtn Center. Judging by your location, I'm guessing you know who he is? I don't normally leave my cords untied, just because I have never encountered a reason that I needed to do so.
I have never met SP but did my AMGA TRSM with Todd Vogel (SP's business partner at Sierra Mtn Center). I did my AMGA RIC with another AMGA instructor who is loosely affiliated with Sierra Mtn Cetner. It was him that discouraged the flat overhand method of joining a cordlette. I don't think that this is a right/wrong issue but maybe more of a personal preference issue ??
I don't leave my cords untied either. But I do encounter situations where I need to untie them to sling a large anchor (block, tree, etc.) So, my cords get untied every so often so they don't get too tight.
Cheers.
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sick_climba
Sep 23, 2006, 4:40 AM
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[quote="slacklinejoe"]In reply to: here is a question, I was taught how to set up trad anchors by a climber of like 15 years experiance, and a total trad man that it was also good to use an overhand knot. It sticks and is easy to untie. My cordelette is stuck in the double fishermans knot so i use that any way but is the overhand exceptable
Are you saying you use an overhand knot to tie your cordolette into it's loop, or that you are using an overhand to form the powerpoint?
Overhand on powerpoint - I have no issue with, overhand to join the rope to form the cordolette I do have issues with.[/quotI don't min is in a fishermans, but i know a guy who taught me how to climb trad who did both tied it with the overhand into its loop then after the points were equalized he used the over hand to tie his power point
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