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kingAndy
Nov 18, 2006, 7:52 PM
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Sometimes I find no chain or rings at the anchor stations, only 2 regular bolts (hangers like the ones where my draws attach too) In the past I have pulled the rope through both and rapped off, is this safe or should I use a sling there. Which makes me wonder why I never see any slings up at these anchors.
(This post was edited by kingAndy on Nov 18, 2006, 7:57 PM)
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coastal_climber
Nov 18, 2006, 8:17 PM
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You should not be doing that if they are regular hangers. If they are rap hangers, (big and brown) then that is ok. Get some quicklinks, and attach one to each hanger, then lower off those. Sling deteriorate quickly if let in the elements, which is why there are none there.
(This post was edited by coastal_climber on Nov 20, 2006, 9:52 PM)
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crackrn
Nov 18, 2006, 8:50 PM
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Just a question: let's say you had no foreknowledge that there were just hangers at the end. I don't know many people who randomly carry quicklinks with them. So in that case, what the OP said seems to be the only thing to do...or is there another option?
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jp_sucks
Nov 18, 2006, 8:55 PM
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As an FYI, almost all climbers I know ALWAYS carry at least one quick link on the back of their harness at all times. I guess this is more of a trad/alpine thing but it pays to have them there all the time.
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space_man
Nov 18, 2006, 9:31 PM
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Are they the Metolius rap anchors? These have a wide edge and are designed for rappelling from.
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wa_hoo
Nov 19, 2006, 1:55 AM
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In reply to: You should not be doing that if they are regular hangers. Sling deteriorate quickly if let in the elements, which is why there are none there.
What is the danger of rapping off the other hangers?
Also - I've only been outside a couple summers like once a week, but I've seen webbing left outside on hangers. Is this different than slings?
We're talking sport climbing here - do many of you really carry quicklinks? I don't recall seeing others with them on their harnesses, but maybe I just wasn't looking. Sounds like a decent idea.
Thanks for any info you can offer. I'm always up for learning more.
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rockguide
Nov 19, 2006, 2:15 AM
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In reply to: Are they the Metolius rap anchors? These have a wide edge and are designed for rappelling from.
Like ^^^ said, Metolius rap hangers are safe to run the rope through. Some other hangers are as well - if the hanger is as thick as your thinnest carabiner, you are OK.
Other options:
Quick links
Leave two carabiners
leave slings (yes they do deteriorate ... and become trash)
If you are at the top of a single pitch route in a well travelled area, though, there is a way off. You have to be more creative to find it...
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thatnameisalreadychosen
Nov 19, 2006, 2:29 AM
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read this link for the "texas rope trick"
http://www.climbing.com/techtips/ttsport223/
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desertdude420
Nov 19, 2006, 2:50 AM
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Standard bolt hangers are far too sharp to thread the rope directly through! Plus the heinous rope drag of threading two spaced out bolts just might make it impossible to retrieve the rope! I'm honestly amazed that this is even a question for debate!
Whenever encountering a "naked" rap station, make a fixed rap anchor... tied slings, equalized, with two rapid links is ideal. It's only a couple bucks worth of gear and you won't get your rope stuck... or slice your rope and die!
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kriso9tails
Nov 19, 2006, 3:10 AM
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In reply to: read this link for the "texas rope trick" http://www.climbing.com/techtips/ttsport223/
<edit>I was mistaken... it clearly shows it as rapping from the webbing, not lowering.</edit>
Most climbers I climb with will carry quicklinks (as do I) or a bail biner. Quicklinks are light and inexpensive, and occasionally it's nice to replace old one's at the top of climbs, especially when you consider that someone else fronted the cost of equipping the route to begin with. It's not unreasonable to expect to leave gear behind here and there climbing, for whatever reasons.
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Nov 19, 2006, 3:13 AM)
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csgambill
Nov 19, 2006, 4:05 AM
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Maybe you didn't actually make it to the anchors.  Climb higher next time.
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coastal_climber
Nov 19, 2006, 5:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You should not be doing that if they are regular hangers. Sling deteriorate quickly if let in the elements, which is why there are none there. What is the danger of rapping off the other hangers? Also - I've only been outside a couple summers like once a week, but I've seen webbing left outside on hangers. Is this different than slings? We're talking sport climbing here - do many of you really carry quicklinks? I don't recall seeing others with them on their harnesses, but maybe I just wasn't looking. Sounds like a decent idea. Thanks for any info you can offer. I'm always up for learning more.
The regular hangers (the ones you attach qd's to) are narrow, and can actually be sharp, from the amount of use. Rap hangers, chains, or rings, are rounded so they don't bite into your rope. I carry Quick Links all the time, and I do sport and mixed. They come in handy and I only use them for rapping. People tend to leave slings up for the summer, or the season, not year round. If a sling is scorched to 30+ in the summer, then -5+ in the winter, they will lose their strength.
>Cam
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bman505
Nov 19, 2006, 6:38 PM
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careful with the slings. I think this happened at the Red a while ago. climber sends, threads rope over sling, raps the double line to the base. before they pull the rope, other climber wants to TR the route. Sends the route, begins lowering, and the rope saws right through the sling. I think the climber was lucky made it out alive.
If you don't wanna leave biners or quicklinks, pull the rope immediately after you rap.
BT
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winglessangel
Nov 19, 2006, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: careful with the slings. I think this happened at the Red a while ago. climber sends, threads rope over sling, raps the double line to the base. before they pull the rope, other climber wants to TR the route. Sends the route, begins lowering, and the rope saws right through the sling. I think the climber was lucky made it out alive. If you don't wanna leave biners or quicklinks, pull the rope immediately after you rap. BT
That is because you are not supposed to TR or lower someone with the rope going directly through slings.
in TR and Lowering there is Action Friction. Action friction between too fabrics deteriorate them very quickly, as in few minutes.
Similar thing for bolts. never TR or Lower someone with rope fed through the bolts. with time, (now it goes for the months unit of time) the bolt will be worn out and become very thin.
In Rapeling the rope doesn't run through the bolt or sling it stays in position. It is a matter of static forces. Now the sling, rope and bolts can handle it.
TR and Lower people with rope through quickdraws, binners or quicklinks that are strong and can be replaced easier then a bolt.
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thomasribiere
Nov 19, 2006, 7:18 PM
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What do you call a quicklink? I searched for that word in the Gear data base and didn't find the answer.
Any rc.com link or external link to enlighten me? Thank you.
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winglessangel
Nov 19, 2006, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: What do you call a quicklink? I searched for that word in the Gear data base and didn't find the answer. Any rc.com link or external link to enlighten me? Thank you.
maillon
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thomasribiere
Nov 19, 2006, 8:29 PM
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Thank you! We often call them Maillon rapide (which is a brand). I thought the quicklinks were some kind of webbings, which surprised me considering that we were talking of rappels.
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kingAndy
Nov 19, 2006, 9:59 PM
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wow, I didn't expect such a long thread, but sounds like quick links is the way to go in future. I found out that the real anchor was actually hidden behind a ledge above  ooops
So the 2 hangers were there to top rope the route so the rope wouldn't rub over the sharp edge.
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alexmac
Nov 19, 2006, 10:41 PM
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In reply to: wow, I didn't expect such a long thread, but sounds like quick links is the way to go in future. I found out that the real anchor was actually hidden behind a ledge above ooops So the 2 hangers were there to top rope the route so the rope wouldn't rub over the sharp edge.
No need to blush, thats part of the learning experience. You learned to bring quick links, not to thread your rope through the hangers, where the top rope part is for that route and got some really good advice along the way.
Its all good.
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scottquig
Nov 20, 2006, 12:29 PM
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So If I'm doing alpine trad with, say, 10 pitches, I'm supposed to carry 20 quicklinks? I sure don't think so! I hope you guys have a better solution for me, because otherwise I'm just rapping off the two hangars.
Additionally, while the 2 hangers may have small edges, putting the rope through the both of them causes the bend in the rope to be actually pretty reasonable, and the forces to be somewhat lower on each anchor. Also, I've never even been close to getting a rope stuck in the hangers.
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rockguide
Nov 20, 2006, 1:35 PM
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In reply to: So If I'm doing alpine trad with, say, 10 pitches, I'm supposed to carry 20 quicklinks? I sure don't think so! I hope you guys have a better solution for me, because otherwise I'm just rapping off the two hangars. Additionally, while the 2 hangers may have small edges, putting the rope through the both of them causes the bend in the rope to be actually pretty reasonable, and the forces to be somewhat lower on each anchor. Also, I've never even been close to getting a rope stuck in the hangers.
We have no responsibility for having a better solution than the right one.
Most alpine trad routes do not have bolted stations. If they do have fixed stations (bolts, pins, other gear) they are probably set for descent and so have rappel rings, chains, fixe hangers, quick links, or old tat webbing).
If not, you should be cutting up your prussiks, slings, etc. Back in the old days, when climbers were self reliant, multi pitch and trad climbers even carried some retreat slings just in case.
But I invite you to rap off the two fixed, regular hangers. Be You!
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scottquig
Nov 20, 2006, 1:51 PM
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I have found both cases, multipitch and alpine trad both with and without bolted anchors, and for those that do have bolts, I've found both good rappel setups and bad ones.
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winglessangel
Nov 20, 2006, 2:26 PM
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In reply to: I have found both cases, multipitch and alpine trad both with and without bolted anchors, and for those that do have bolts, I've found both good rappel setups and bad ones.
After explaining all about the "do not TR from bolts and slings" I was thinking the same as you: "20 quicklinks hmmm... heavy" "20m of cordelete hummm maybe"
And the best solution was INFORMATION. collect as much information as you can. Not only because of bad bolts but also bc of horizontals and trad stops, rapel is often an issues.
Some routes were "designed" to reach the summit and there will be trail to go down. some were "designed" to rapel with 2 ropes because rapel stations are too far apart or because it is an 100% trad and you want to leave the minimum amount of pieces.
Honestly, I live in Rio. 90% of bolted routes here are bolted, from bottom to top with the brazilian 'P' bolt that has a round edge, this means that rapel is rarely an issue. More then that if you don't mind rapeling from a single bolt you can rapel from any point, at any moment.
I never owned or used a quicklink before. But there are the trad routes and those 10% bolted with hangers and the more I get away from Rio this percentage increases so I always ask around before getting to the base and starting climbing.
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