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notapplicable
Jan 10, 2007, 4:29 AM
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acollins wrote: I've got some 30ft climbs in my area. In reply to: Yikes, I had some 30 ft. stuff in my area when I learned gear also but I stayed away from it. It occures to me that when learning trad the best plan is to get as high off the deck as possible as fast as you can. If you 70 ft. out and botche a placement your still good to go. On the other hand if you botch one at 20 ft. or so your pretty much going to end up back down there with your belayer. Either way welcome to the dark side, your in for a good time. 
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acollins
Jan 10, 2007, 5:06 AM
Post #27 of 40
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That makes sense. I was talking about just learning to place pro. Maybe even top rope it and place as I go. I'd place lots of pro as I go up the small climbs just a practice. I'd rather test the stuff out 30 ft off the deck instead of 70. I'd make sure I place everthing correctly. I did forget to mention I do plan to practice placing lots of protection on the ground before I started to climb it. I may be crazy but I make sure that I do things as safe as I can.
It'll still be 4 or 5 months before I start trad though. I've got to get alot more gear but a need a skydive rig first.
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angry
Jan 10, 2007, 5:56 AM
Post #28 of 40
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Did I just get a compliment from Mister Milktoast? I'm not sure I warrant that. Anyway, thanks. Seems lately all I'm really capable of is pulling hard on shit.
I agree with what you said about learning from others. You're absolutely right. That's how I did it, same with everyone else. And I'm still doing it.
There's 3 mode's of learning that I can think of.
1. Trial and Error, it's worked for me in the past. Climbing is beautiful like that, what works for me doesn't have to work for you. It's not springboard diving. There is no exact way I need to perform a sequence or climb. As long as I follow the rules I set for myself, I, as my own judge, won't disqualify me.
2. Someone shows you. I remember as a beginner wondering what the hell people were taping their hands for. Sure we were climbing lots of cracks but I never really stuck my hand in one. Then one day I saw someone climb a crack without using anything but the crack. I quickly stuck my hand in the next crack I saw, a love affair quickly developed.
3. Peer speculation. Yes, peer speculation. It's like pure speculation about how to climb something, but you bounce the ideas off your friends. I've spent many a long night at the fire talking about the best ways and newest idea to get through X. I believe this is the best for climbing, not because of how much you learn but more for the analytical practice. IE, better awareness of your climbing.
For the technical (rope, biner, gear, anchors) part of climbing, I learned more by not having a regular partner. I was forced to climb with many people, I saw lots of new things. Some things were good and some weren't. I know that I had things I've done wrong pointed out as well that other partners hadn't worried about. I'd say to get proficient, don't get nailed to one partner, rather, whore yourself out.
Anymore though, I'm not super interested in whoring. It sure helped me though.
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zeke_sf
Jan 10, 2007, 7:10 AM
Post #29 of 40
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I ain't trad climbed yet but I'm gonna be dangerous as fuck.
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notapplicable
Jan 10, 2007, 1:23 PM
Post #30 of 40
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acollins wrote: That makes sense. I was talking about just learning to place pro. Maybe even top rope it and place as I go. I'd place lots of pro as I go up the small climbs just a practice. I'd rather test the stuff out 30 ft off the deck instead of 70. I'd make sure I place everthing correctly. I did forget to mention I do plan to practice placing lots of protection on the ground before I started to climb it. I may be crazy but I make sure that I do things as safe as I can. It'll still be 4 or 5 months before I start trad though. I've got to get alot more gear but a need a skydive rig first.
I got ya. Learning to place gear on top rope at your local crag where you feel comfotable and know the routes is a great idea. I have just always been sketched out a by the idea of leading short ( sub 30 - 35 ft.) on gear, its just to close to the deck for me. I've also found that the tall stuff (for its grade) is easier than the short stuff, allowing you to get more distance (and gear) between you and the deck before the pump sets in. But by all meens do what you feel comfortable with, when your comfortable you will be able to concentrate on the gear and your learning curve should be much sharper.
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robbovius
Jan 10, 2007, 2:04 PM
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angry wrote: I think the VAST majority of us lifers never had a mentor. We had someone show us a couple things, over a couple days. Everything else was on our own motivation and intuition.
sympatico, absolutely.
I I decided to teach myself how to place gear and lead, buy buying gear, and building top rope anchors with it every time I climbed. I followed maybe two short leads with more experienced climbing friends, and then one day sucked it up and led a nice easy 5.5 on my own. I've never looked back, nor have I regretted it. I've scared the absolute CRAP out of myself a few times on lead, but, well, that's part of leading trad.
In reply to: To say that a mentorship is needed for everyone who wants to climb a gear protected route, is an insult to everyone who's ever done it on their own.
again, sympatico.
In reply to: Another point is that of helpless behavior. Specifically, learned helpless behavior. If you are constantly having your hand held, you are going to need to have your hand held, whether or not your mentor came with you that day. To set out on your own, knowing that your knowledge, judgement, and skill is going to have to sufficient, well that's a kind of climbing a mentor can never teach.
I have highlighted in bold your key definition of the most essential aspect of succesful trad leading.
The hardest parts of leading trad, is putting yourself on the spot, making the moves and placements count, and managing the fear. NO mentor will teach your that.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Jan 10, 2007, 2:29 PM)
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robbovius
Jan 10, 2007, 2:29 PM
Post #32 of 40
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the_shoe wrote: If my posts have insulted any of the "self taught lifers" out there then I apologize, but then again maybe it wasn't my post that caused you all to be insulted.
Um, well, this post of yours really got your insult on...
the_shoe wrote: I mean tons of people drive drunk all the time and no one ever kills a family of four on there way to Disneyland. Sure people with no regard for thier own lifes can just jump on anything and try Trad. But lets not forget about the poor sap that has agreed to follow your route with shitty placements, poorly protected traverses, and manky anchors. I've read your same argument before in other "I want to lead posts." and understand this is your stance toward learning how to climb Trad. And I guess if everyone were to feel this way we could all subscribe to "Accidents in North American Moutaineering" for it would be a monthly publication.
I'd accept your apology, but I happen to have a real problem with the whole "forgiveness" thing. ;-)
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acollins
Jan 11, 2007, 2:35 AM
Post #34 of 40
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hey
I can try both though and see what i'm more comfortable with. I most of the spots in my local area are around 100 ft. Its slab climbing so its a little easier I think anyway than the vertical 30 to 60 footers that I was going to practice on. It'll still be some time for me though. I have plans to use my income tax for a skydiving rig so Pro will just have to weight. I need to get better on the sport and top rope anyway before I try trad.
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rockprodigy
Jan 11, 2007, 5:40 AM
Post #35 of 40
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reg wrote: p.s. - with all due respect to "rockprodigy" - we are not really talking about "climbing" per se' - it's about learning how to PROTECT that a mentor is most valuable - any knucklehead can climb albeit we can get better at that too!
With all due respect to you, protecting is the easy part because it's science...it adheres to a set of rules (the laws of physics) which can be easliy explained in books, articles and videos. Science isn't easy for everyone, if that's you, then get a mentor, but don't tell me I'm reckless if I don't.
The hard part is the "art" of leading; knowing what climbs are within your ability, having the gumption to take risks and push yourself, and knowing when to go for it, or back off. These are questions that nobody can advise you on, because only you know yourself, and you get to know yourself through trial and, sometimes, error.
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reg
Jan 11, 2007, 1:04 PM
Post #36 of 40
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reg wrote: p.s. - with all due respect to "rockprodigy" - we are not really talking about "climbing" per se' - it's about learning how to PROTECT that a mentor is most valuable - any knucklehead can climb albeit we can get better at that too!
rockprodigy wrote:
"With all due respect to you, protecting is the easy part because it's science...it adheres to a set of rules (the laws of physics) which can be easliy explained...."
I believe climbing is intuitive - something from way back. it's natural. but sicence on the other hand, is most difficult for lots of brains. example: my step father was in law enforcement. first as an army intelligence officer, then FBI agent, States attorney, bla bla bla! but this man didn't know which end of a screwdriver to use. science is not not easily learned.
"but don't tell me I'm reckless if I don't."
where'd I say that?
"The hard part is the "art" of leading; knowing what climbs are within your ability, having the gumption to take risks and push yourself, and knowing when to go for it, or back off."
all right sir - i agree
"These are questions that nobody can advise you on, because only you know yourself,"
hummmm........sometimes a little advise, ah little push can help you know yourself ah little better ..ya think?
"and you get to know yourself through trial and, sometimes, error."
now yer talkin!
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stymingersfink
Jan 12, 2007, 7:20 AM
Post #37 of 40
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reg wrote: rockprodigy wrote: and you get to know yourself through trial and, sometimes, error. now yer talkin!
sometimes "error" can cost you your life... better to err on the side of caution, IMHO.
...unless, of course, one has a strong desire to die.
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azrockclimber
Jan 12, 2007, 11:37 AM
Post #38 of 40
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I like this question. I think some of the answer could prove insightful... lets see if mine does.. haha
Right, well... having a mentor was one of the best things that happened to me in my climbing career. Because he is not really a mentor anymore but a very good friend.
It started out as him needing someone to help him establish new routes. During that time we were both climbing separately from each other as well. For me, every time we weree together I just asked questions... on the rock, off the rock...but all about the some aspect of climbing. Having an experienced climber around all the time when you are a noob is like having all the right answers, tried and true, at you finger tips...so you can absorb every word.... and I did.
Now a good mentor will push you but not too hard, they will encourage and warn at the same time, they will suggest a good course of action but ultimately let you decide...unless you are making an awful decision. Climbing is about trial and error and learning form those mistakes..... hopefully small errors.. 
I learned more climbing with my "mentor" in a year than I could have on my own in 3. It won't necessarily make you a stronger, more powerful climber, even though it did me an many others, buit it will def make you a "better", more skilled climber.
Because those of us who have been climbing for a bit know that strong often only matters in the choice of a route a good portion of the time... every other time it is what you know that gets you out of a sticky situation, not how strong you are. ( but granted being able to pull hard always helps..thats a personal journey I think)
alright...enough typing for me
good luck
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graniteboy
Jan 12, 2007, 10:08 PM
Post #39 of 40
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The reason people need mentors is the same reason that they need school teachers. Of COURSE you can learn the entire knowledge base of western civilization with a free library card. Especially if you have an IQ of 170.
But you'll learn it a helluva lot better with a good teacher.
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nodecaf
Jan 23, 2007, 2:01 PM
Post #40 of 40
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graniteboy wrote: But you'll learn it a helluva lot better with a good teacher.
I think that graniteboy sums it up rather well. I'm a new trad leader with a handful of 5.6 and 5.7 leads and I am fortunate enough to have a couple experienced friends who were/are willing to evaluate placements etc.
Could have I figured it out on my own by reading Long's "Climbing Anchors?" Sure, but I'm learning FASTER with mentors and I get immediate feedback on the quality of my placements.
To maximise improvement in any activity it is best to train/practice with those who are better than you.
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right on 
