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rock_doctor
Mar 20, 2007, 9:07 PM
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This is lame. Safe Harbor is CLOSED!!! in bold letters all over the page. Yeah right. Then why are people always talking about climbing there? Why are there ascent logs and photos from 2005-2006 on this website.
The area maybe legally closed, but people climb there. So why not just say that? Area Closed Climb at your own risk!!!
What....you're protecting access.. Bullshit. You're protecting your climbing spot from being more popular and crowded. Just like all the little spots where people post photos and no directions. F-that.
I understand, saying its closed so that access isn't screwed up for later....but if people are climbing there and posting logs....then say Climb at your own risk.
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lodi5onu
Apr 9, 2007, 11:35 AM
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amen to that...i was just there this weekend and although cold, the climbing wasn't too bad. What's with all the rusty-ass bolts and anchors though? this place needs some tlc asap
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notapplicable
Apr 9, 2007, 12:09 PM
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Give 'em hell cleatus. Damn greedy craghoarders.
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lodi5onu
Apr 9, 2007, 1:03 PM
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that's a good idea j_ung, i'm going to get a hold of the lancaster county park association and ask them for some type of assistance in the replacement of the bolts, funding or otherwise, because it's really unsafe and if ppl are going to illegaly climb there, we don't need any accidents muddying up the situation even more
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wormly81
Apr 9, 2007, 6:17 PM
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So just because other people have climbed there without permission you think your justified in calling the park service and asking for money to rebolt? I don't know much about safe harbor but I do know that there has been a long a drawn out process regarding opening the railroads land to other user groups. You would have to be a complete idiot (and asshole) to jump into this situation without knowing the first thing about the ongoing situation and start calling government offices to complain about the unsafe climbing. You should be really proud of all the great work your doing to promote good relationship between climbers and land managers.
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lodi5onu
Apr 9, 2007, 6:22 PM
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you're right, i don't know anything about the ongoing situation so instead of asking for assistance, i'm just going to take matters into my own hands and re-bolt this place to make it safer for everybody who climbs there...ilegally or not
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rokgot
Apr 9, 2007, 6:45 PM
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wormly81 wrote: You would have to be a complete idiot (and asshole) to jump into this situation without knowing the first thing about the ongoing situation and start calling government offices to complain about the unsafe climbing.
quit looking in the mirror when typing monkey stool worm!
lodi5onu - find someone in your area working with the ARI or ASCA and see if they have someone local, they will probably have the experience and equipment (not that i know you wouldn't) and will gladly help
i had some friends in the area, and this is a vague memory but i believe the Rails to Trails Conservancy was attempting access. check out their PA chapter by phone (the website will not have updated info on "small" projects) and see what progress they have made or are making
keeping climbers safe should never be frowned upon, if you do contact "authorities", just explain that there is still climbers using it and that replacing the hangers (and bolts) is essential and that you will not be placing new bolts or further damaging the resource, but only retrofitting
good luck
f@*k craghoarders!! and their parrotting usefull idiots!!
Bill
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jsweet
Apr 9, 2007, 8:51 PM
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Please do not contact the county. Climbers' interests are being represented in future use of Safe Harbor by Eric Horst and the PA Alliance of Climbers; contact them if you want information. It has been a very slow process, but they have stated that climbing is an approved use with the county when a park is established.
There are many people, including me, who regularly climb there and have never been hassled for doing so; doesn't mean its right or legal. I am a firm believer that you can do anything until someone tells you not to.
I am afraid if you smack the county in the face about climbing out there and tell them it is a safety issue (when not all routes are unsafe), they will not look the other way as they have been doing; you'll ruin the party for everybody.
I agree that there are some bad anchors/bolts and it is admirable that you want to do something about it. A couple people have been replacing some bolts and putting up new routes. The people doing it have been climbing out there for many years, which probably explains the replacements on harder routes.
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rokgot
Apr 10, 2007, 2:51 AM
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let me turn on the PA bullshit translater:
jsweet wrote: Please do not contact the county.
"i still climb there illegally and want to continue to do so with no authorities knowing about it..."
In reply to: Climbers' interests are being represented in future use of Safe Harbor by Eric Horst and the PA Alliance of Climbers
"i'm name dropping, just ignore that Horst helped to completely bolt a closed then and still now quarry in central PA, and also don't pay attention to the PAC loosing the lease for Governor Stables probably by holding comps and producing more impact than the landowners felt comfortable with..."
In reply to: There are many people, including me, who regularly climb there and have never been hassled for doing so; doesn't mean its right or legal. I am a firm believer that you can do anything until someone tells you not to.
"i still want to climb there and don't want anyone to tell me not too, so once again don't inform anyone..."
In reply to: I agree that there are some bad anchors/bolts and it is admirable that you want to do something about it. A couple people have been replacing some bolts and putting up new routes. The people doing it have been climbing out there for many years, which probably explains the replacements on harder routes.
"its cool you want to help but your not a good enough climber, THE group that climb there has been replacing bad bolts and bolting new routes illegally, but only on the really hard climbs we do and nothing you have ever been on, so f@*k off noob..."
translater off
Bill
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jsweet
Apr 11, 2007, 2:42 PM
Post #12 of 29
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Man you are so angry about a place you don't climb at and only have "friends" in the area.
You're psychic/translation abilities were pretty good except on two points:
1. not name dropping; got the info from the PAC site and the guide book (yes, I know its strange but an illegal area has a pretty decent little guide book). passing the info along, since the poster didn't know.
2. I am not one of the re/new bolters. I met them in passing. They have put new bolts on some easier routes too. I still consider myself a noob, so not dumping on anybody or trying to keep the place a secret. The place is clearly the worst kept secret in the area.
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wormly81
Apr 11, 2007, 3:21 PM
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rokgot wrote: wormly81 wrote: You would have to be a complete idiot (and asshole) to jump into this situation without knowing the first thing about the ongoing situation and start calling government offices to complain about the unsafe climbing. quit looking in the mirror when typing monkey stool worm! lodi5onu - find someone in your area working with the ARI or ASCA and see if they have someone local, they will probably have the experience and equipment (not that i know you wouldn't) and will gladly help i had some friends in the area, and this is a vague memory but i believe the Rails to Trails Conservancy was attempting access. check out their PA chapter by phone (the website will not have updated info on "small" projects) and see what progress they have made or are making keeping climbers safe should never be frowned upon, if you do contact "authorities", just explain that there is still climbers using it and that replacing the hangers (and bolts) is essential and that you will not be placing new bolts or further damaging the resource, but only retrofitting good luck f@*k craghoarders!! and their parrotting usefull idiots!! Bill
Bill,
You've got some balls to talk about parroting useful idiots considering your argument does not contradict anything in my post. If you read what I wrote before puffing out your chest to protect your new boyfriend you would realize my only comment is that it would be stupid to call a government office to complain about unsafe climbing conditions in a place thats not currently open to climbing. I stick by that statement 1000%. Your diatribe about keeping climbers safe and craghording is completely irrelevant to my point.
(This post was edited by wormly81 on Apr 11, 2007, 3:23 PM)
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rokgot
Apr 11, 2007, 5:12 PM
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wormly81 wrote: rokgot wrote: wormly81 wrote: You would have to be a complete idiot (and asshole) to jump into this situation without knowing the first thing about the ongoing situation and start calling government offices to complain about the unsafe climbing. quit looking in the mirror when typing monkey stool worm! lodi5onu - find someone in your area working with the ARI or ASCA and see if they have someone local, they will probably have the experience and equipment (not that i know you wouldn't) and will gladly help i had some friends in the area, and this is a vague memory but i believe the Rails to Trails Conservancy was attempting access. check out their PA chapter by phone (the website will not have updated info on "small" projects) and see what progress they have made or are making keeping climbers safe should never be frowned upon, if you do contact "authorities", just explain that there is still climbers using it and that replacing the hangers (and bolts) is essential and that you will not be placing new bolts or further damaging the resource, but only retrofitting good luck f@*k craghoarders!! and their parrotting usefull idiots!! Bill Bill, You've got some balls to talk about parroting useful idiots considering your argument does not contradict anything in my post. If you read what I wrote before puffing out your chest to protect your new boyfriend you would realize my only comment is that it would be stupid to call a government office to complain about unsafe climbing conditions in a place thats not currently open to climbing. I stick by that statement 1000%. Your diatribe about keeping climbers safe and craghording is completely irrelevant to my point.
Balls yeah, i have 'em, and if we get Hitlary in office hopefully a govt. regulation to neuter people like you with such small IQs would better our society and allievate such idiocy in the climbing "community", because your balls are only going to be harmful, if and when they drop and start to work.
Aside from that only the first line was directed at you, get over yourself, I was trying to help lodi5onu to find out more information, did YOU read past me calling you a worm in a pile of monkey stool? Probably not.
I wasn't trying to "contradict" you, what is there to contradict, there is no point. You seemed to know less about it then he did, and you certainely seem to know less about it then me. So, your are being hypocritical in what you said at best, and unknowingly ammusing to me. Thanks for the laugh.
Run off to the campground and talk about your newest BD purchase.
I was just trying to help out lodi5onu.
In fact, LODI, you seem like a motivated INDIVIDUAL that is just going to ignore their spewed dung. I will gladly drop $20 on hangers or bolts for you and will send them south.
Keep it safe for everyone, and thanks for actually doing something.
Bill
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rokgot
Apr 11, 2007, 5:42 PM
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jsweet wrote: Man you are so angry about a place you don't climb at and only have "friends" in the area.
Not angry about the place, but the continueing habit of small groups of pa climbers doing exactly what you are doing. Climbing at a closed place, and loudly tell others not to go there (or pass out directions, etc...), so they can continue to climb illegally by themselves.
I lived in PA from 79 to 91, and yes I was a climber then too, and yes I climbed at Safe Harbor a handfull of times. I was referring to still having a friend or two in the area that told me about the Rails to Trails Conservancy working on rec access in the area. No one else brought this up, thought it might help.
In reply to: You're psychic/translation abilities were pretty good except on two points:
thanks, after spending more than a decade there, it starts to come naturally
In reply to: 1. not name dropping; got the info from the PAC site and the guide book (yes, I know its strange but an illegal area has a pretty decent little guide book). passing the info along, since the poster didn't know.
ah, that makes some sense. Eric was involved in the Bellefonte Quarry guide, that is and was a guide for an illegal quarry in central PA, that he helped bolt more than 250 climbs in. wonder if he also helped with this illegal guide. why should anyone like this be in a position for "us" to look to for clearing up access. that is joke, but expected from that group of climbers from the 80's in central PA (PSU)
you did not reference the poor management of Governor Stables by the PAC. once again, why are you choosing them as the authorities for clearing up access. seems like a piss poor decision. plus their websites is for such a small area of PA, and only a few locations, seems like they are really only focus is on THEIR climbing not climbing in PA.
In reply to: 2. I am not one of the re/new bolters. I met them in passing. They have put new bolts on some easier routes too. I still consider myself a noob, so not dumping on anybody or trying to keep the place a secret. The place is clearly the worst kept secret in the area.
sorry, i believed you eluded to being one of THE group. YES, it probably is the "worst kept secret" and that is even more of a reason for LODI or whoever to make it safer. if there is continually be climbing activity than why not retrofit? obviously these guys you passed where and are replacing bolts, but my point is if they are going to be snobs and only retro routes they are using then they have no consideration for others on "lesser" routes.
a deck or two from faulty anchors and anyone considering access is going to think that the local climbing community does not have the skill set of safety knowledge to keep it in a "safe" climbing condition. so by overlooking some noob routes they will inevitably ruin any further access for everyone. seems like someone needs to step up, and it seemed like LODI wanted to.
and i understand that you might just be discouraging him from the "contact of authorities", and yes it might be better for him to just go and do it...
BUT he should be commended for first thinking about how to go about it legally. now its up to him to weigh the consequences of both ways to go about it.
you guys get me too fired up and i will just take some sick days and travel south, i'll chop any routes with new hangers above 5.11 and replace what i can on the rest of the routes. and don't worry about me, i have some non-climber friends in the area from Long Island, they are big, spaghetti-eating, ball bat toting old guys, just like me. We'll have fun causing a rawkus, it will take us back to the old days in Port Jefferson in the late 60's and early 70's growing up.
everyone enjoy the new season!
Bill
(This post was edited by rokgot on Apr 11, 2007, 5:49 PM)
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kyleshea
Apr 11, 2007, 7:35 PM
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first off, please take a minute to realize that you are arguing about and getting fired up over SAFE HARBOR. its not that good of a climbing area, its blasted rock in an uninspiring location. nonetheless, any action could hurt access. yes, a climber getting hurt there due to unsafe hardware would cause an access issue. but if it IS illegal to climb there, than a climber climbing there would cause an access issue as well. find out what the true status is concerning access and then move forward appropriately from there.
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jsweet
Apr 11, 2007, 8:23 PM
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balls? You're a joke - anybody who is really tough doesn't have to tell everybody how tough they are. You just sit on your bitter old shriveled ass behind your computer, hurling insults like monkey shit at the zoo.
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rokgot
Apr 12, 2007, 12:57 AM
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just a most friendly warning (and joke btw)...
chop
chop!
thump
thump
snap!
lighten up philly phairy! go climb, have fun, be safe
Bill
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cintune
Apr 12, 2007, 1:39 AM
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Well, hey, this is certainly productive.
But jeez, people have supposedly been "working" on this access issue for, like, what, 20 years now? Seems like all the work is going around in a big top secret circle because whoever owns the railroad right of way doesn't really care, or the people who climb there anyway...climb there anyway. So the status of the place is "closed, but you can still climb." If you like chossy schist, anyway. Beggars can't be choosers.
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dharmatreez
Apr 12, 2007, 2:44 AM
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what exactly is the situation...
is the Access Fund aware?
where is the Rails to Trails Conservancy at in the access for the multiuse trail?
is the PAC directly working with county parks people on involving climbing into the rec usage?
(or is it just keeping updates on when the property is bought and designated as public?)
who currently owns the land?
(and what is there stance on rec usage?)
is there "no tresspassing" signs?
has anyone that climbed there been approached by authorities for doing so?
sorry for so many questions, but maybe it can more productive to get a better perspective of what the access is and see if retrobolting routes for safety is really going to harm access
never been there but being described as a choss pile and blasted away rock face, i'm assuming its like some of the same rock along old railroad lines i have locally, i don't see such unstable rock being good for bolting, let alone climbing, but it could be completely different than what i am imagining
jae
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dharmatreez
Apr 12, 2007, 3:28 AM
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ok, let me try to answer some of my own questions...
In reply to: is the Access Fund aware?
yes
http://www.accessfund.org/regions/res/PA
In reply to: where is the Rails to Trails Conservancy at in the access for the multiuse trail?
someone would have to be in contact with a local member in Lancaster, the web site doesn't carry accurate small project data, but the Lancaster "county park" that is also a Rails to Trails is the Conewago Trail.
http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/...&parksNav=|7871|
it is listed on the Rails to Trails page also. this would indicate that there is a presence in the Lancaster County Park system of the RTC, and if it is an old railroad bed then it is a good bet they are involved.
In reply to: ...county parks people on involving climbing into the rec usage?
...well the Lancaster County Park site has their parks listed and the projects as well. Safe Harbor is no where to be found, you would think if they really where working on it, it would be found on the project page.
http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/...&parksNav=|9318|
Chickies is a Lancaster County Park and climbing is tolerated there, so I would ASSume that if Safe Harbor is designated as a county park, there wouldn't need to be a need to work on climbing access specifically, just public land designation itself.
In reply to: who currently owns the land?
from the Rails to Trails site, it seems the Conewago Trail was bought from the Lebanon Railroad. i ASSume once again, but they probably owned most of the railroad lines in the surrounding area
http://www.traillink.com/...%3D%26AS%5FLength%3D
that's all i could dig up tonight
happy trails and safe climbing
jae
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BoulderingBowers
Apr 13, 2007, 7:04 PM
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rokgot wrote: ah, that makes some sense. Eric was involved in the Bellefonte Quarry guide, that is and was a guide for an illegal quarry in central PA, that he helped bolt more than 250 climbs in. wonder if he also helped with this illegal guide. why should anyone like this be in a position for "us" to look to for clearing up access. that is joke, but expected from that group of climbers from the 80's in central PA (PSU)
Well, to set the record straight - Eric had nothing to do with the making of the bellefonte climbing guide. And he only helped bolt about half a dozen climbs. He did start the rap-bolting phase, dening me the adrenaline of putting up these routes from the ground up, but that's another thread.
Bellefonte is a completely different situation and I beleive the more publication about the area the better. When you guys argue about open and closed areas you are missing the bigger picture. Much bigger.
DESTROYED climbing areas! Two of the bellefonte quarries have been clompletely FILLED IN! This seems the ultimate fate of all the quarries.
The only fix is for enough people to care about the area to try to do something to stop this. And how does that happen with out publication of the area to get people to even know about the place?
Did you know that the book catch-22 was actually written a short distance from bellefonte?
jim bowers
(This post was edited by BoulderingBowers on Apr 13, 2007, 7:06 PM)
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kyleshea
Apr 13, 2007, 7:17 PM
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i actually find it right on that quarries are filled in. they are not climbing areas. they are created for rock to be removed from, and for it to be used elsewhere, countertops, gravel for roads, paving, the list goes on. quarries are not created for climbers or climbing. they are filled in because the landowner sees the potential for death or injury on their land. or to be able to use the land for something besides a gaping hole in the ground. blasted quarry rock is often unstable and unsafe to climb on. land/business owners are aware of this. otherwise you would see quarry owners bolting the walls themselves and charging climbers to go there. but they realize the safety issues involved. there are places to go climbing that are on natural cliffs, and are not on private land. and if the rock there is unsafe or unstable, then its your ass and a landowner cant be sued.
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BoulderingBowers
Apr 14, 2007, 5:09 AM
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kyleshea wrote: i actually find it right on that quarries are filled in. they are not climbing areas. they are created for rock to be removed from, and for it to be used elsewhere, countertops, gravel for roads, paving, the list goes on. quarries are not created for climbers or climbing. they are filled in because the landowner sees the potential for death or injury on their land. or to be able to use the land for something besides a gaping hole in the ground. blasted quarry rock is often unstable and unsafe to climb on. land/business owners are aware of this. otherwise you would see quarry owners bolting the walls themselves and charging climbers to go there. but they realize the safety issues involved. there are places to go climbing that are on natural cliffs, and are not on private land. and if the rock there is unsafe or unstable, then its your ass and a landowner cant be sued.
If you've climbed at the bellefone quarries you wouldn't be spewing this crap.
A) The rock at bellefonte is some of the niceest climbing rock anywhere.
B) The rock is a whole lot more stable than many climbing area. The features are natural since you climb on top of a bedding plane (surface of the bottom of the ocean).
C) Perhaps the best crack climbing in the North East.
D) The best lead climbing area in the state of pennsylvania.
The place is a gem.
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kyleshea
Apr 14, 2007, 6:23 AM
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nope, never climbed at bellefonte. or any other quarry. nor will i ever climb at bellefonte. or any other quarry. ill climb on natural rock formations. but thanks for the invite
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