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carabiner96
Apr 13, 2007, 2:39 AM
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jt512 wrote: carabiner96 wrote: jt512 wrote: "Assface." That was mature. Jay and this is? jt512 wrote: Go fuck yourself, Will. Jay And that was? Exasperation, like I said. Maybe a more mature person could have handled being called "asinine" three times in one post better. Jay
Uh huh. Life as a forum bum must be so cruel.
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 2:41 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: jt512 wrote: carabiner96 wrote: jt512 wrote: "Assface." That was mature. Jay and this is? jt512 wrote: Go fuck yourself, Will. Jay And that was? Exasperation, like I said. Maybe a more mature person could have handled being called "asinine" three times in one post better. Jay Uh huh. Life as a forum bum must be so cruel.
It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it. I'm becoming increasingly inclined to let someone else.
Jay
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wideguy
Apr 13, 2007, 3:30 AM
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Jay, I won't pretend to be an exercise physiologist, a doctor, or even a climbing coach. I will claim to be a guy who went through a lot of elbow problems and did the rolling weight exercise for months on end, (along with the twisting hammers and wrist curls and a lot of other stuff) and I know that my first day back on rock I had a lot more strength and/or endurance to hold my lard-ass on the rocks longer. Maybe there is no climbing movement exactly like it but the action, particularly the constant torqueing motion while you reposition one hand then the other, works a surprising number of muscles. And last I checked, and maybe it's poor technique on my part, but my hand position is rarely absolutely static when I climb. As i grab a hold above me and then climb up, beside, across or over that hold my hand position relative to my body changes. I use different muscles to maintain my overall body position relative to that grip point.
To claim that grip is absolutely static seems doubtful to me and dismissing any exercise the works large numbers of interrelated muscle groups simultaneously seems awfully narrow minded. I can't count the number of times my PT or Ortho told me things like "I know this doesn't seem to make sense, but this wrist exercise really will strengthen your elbow."
Just may $.02, which you'll probably give a value of two pesos. Oh well.
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miavzero
Apr 13, 2007, 4:19 AM
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based on the reactions that people are having to Jay's responses, is it safe to say that the people would rather be in the company of someone who is oblivious, non-confrontational and wrong, than be subjected to the teachings, assertions and dictums of an argumentative, but informed hardass?
Jay is an intellignent person who often demonstrates a lower level of socio-emotional intelligence.
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 4:27 AM
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wideguy wrote: Jay, I won't pretend to be an exercise physiologist, a doctor, or even a climbing coach. I will claim to be a guy who went through a lot of elbow problems and did the rolling weight exercise for months on end, (along with the twisting hammers and wrist curls and a lot of other stuff) and I know that my first day back on rock I had a lot more strength and/or endurance to hold my lard-ass on the rocks longer.
Compared with being injured, I would think so.
On the other hand, I get bouted every time I change crags. In the winter I climb mostly at two crags, both crimpy. By the middle of the season I can redpoint mid-12 at these crags in a reasonable number of tries. Now, if I make a visit to a crag like the Owens River Gorge, where the holds are just a little bit more open-handed, I'm toast. I can barely get through routes 1-1/2 number grades below what I can do at my usual crimpy crags. Likewise, for the last two seasons, I've been mostly climbing during the summer at a more open-handed crag. For the first few weeks, I have the same problem, but after that, my performance improves, and matches that at my winter crags. But come winter, back at the crimpy crags, my performance is again poor for the first few weeks.
What this shows is that forearm endurance is specific to hand position. Now, if a few degrees of difference in hand position makes this much difference in performance, then how reasonable is it that an exercise like winding up a suspended weight which hardly stresses the fingers at all, much less in one of many climbing-specific positions will be an effective exercise for climbing?
Jay
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sidepull
Apr 13, 2007, 4:56 AM
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I think the argument here is that winding things up, twirling a hammer, stirring rice, rolling weights, jogging, etc., are better than nothing given the OP's circumstances as a noob who is far from a gym. That's fine. In fact, as I asked in a separate, albeit similar thread, I wonder if those things might develop some level of capilarity. For example, would a construction worker who's always using his hands (carrying 2x4's, swinging a hammer, etc.) have better developed capilarity? If so, would he be able to progress quicker? I don't know - seems sensible in some ways. So I'm open to these ideas.
But when people claim to be "coaches" or claim some level of experience or the common "my friend climbs v12 and he says . . ." and then they cite this stuff as if it were fact - it becomes pretty bothersome. In this regard, I'm with completely with Jay. There's a wealth of literature regarding training and most of the advice provided here borders on the urban legend form of knowledge rather than the well-though out, researched (as much as possible in our fledingly sport) information that people should be seeking and sharing.
In the end I feel a bit liable for the flare up in this thread because I'm the person who called lambone's advice "crappy." I still think that Lambone misrepresented the article on regarding recovering after a pump and I was shocked that someone claiming to be a coache would be that wrong. However, Lambone did offer really good advice - the best bet for the OP is to build a small woodie and start from there. So, I'm sorry for my role in starting this up. But, I'd argue, that to even understand what holds to buy and how to set it up he'd have to do a substantial amount of reading. In fact, more and more my advice on the "Technique and Training Forum" is "read the Self Coached Climber, Performance Rockclimbing, and Rockprodigy's article."
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lambone
Apr 13, 2007, 6:13 AM
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jt512 wrote: By the middle of the season I can redpoint mid-12 at these crags in a reasonable number of tries. Now, if I make a visit to a crag like the Owens River Gorge, where the holds are just a little bit more open-handed, I'm toast. I can barely get through routes 1-1/2 number grades below what I can do at my usual crimpy crags. Jay
I think the more realistic explination is that the grades in your socal sport crags are soft, and in Owens you get a taste of true grades and wake up to the fact that you are not a 5.12 hardman but just a 10+ sportwanker who spends to much time on RC.com.
(This post was edited by lambone on Apr 13, 2007, 6:19 AM)
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 6:18 AM
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lambone wrote: jt512 wrote: By the middle of the season I can redpoint mid-12 at these crags in a reasonable number of tries. Now, if I make a visit to a crag like the Owens River Gorge, where the holds are just a little bit more open-handed, I'm toast. I can barely get through routes 1-1/2 number grades below what I can do at my usual crimpy crags. Jay I think the more realistic explination is that the grades in your socal sport crags are soft, and in Owens you get a taste of true grades.
O, Lord, why do I persist?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 13, 2007, 6:23 AM)
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lambone
Apr 13, 2007, 6:20 AM
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because this thread is no longer about ccourtney99's first time to the gym getting pumped, it is merely a demostration of what a freaking tool YOU are.
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 6:24 AM
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lambone wrote: because this thread is no longer about ccourtney99's first time to the gym getting pumped, it is merely a demostration of what a freaking tool YOU are.
How old are you?
Jay
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lambone
Apr 13, 2007, 6:32 AM
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Old enough to have met one too many people like you in my lifetime.
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 6:36 AM
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lambone wrote: because this thread is no longer about ccourtney99's first time to the gym getting pumped, it is merely a demostration of what a freaking tool YOU are.
You know, you are so fucking full of shit. My recollection of you from several years ago is that you were an aid climber arguing minutiae with Pete Zabrok. A review of your posting history to this site shows that practically your entire posting history was to the Aid Climbing forum, right up until you opened a climbing gym. Thus your climbing history seems to be aid climber --> gym owner --> free climbing coach "for a living". That is, nothing in your history suggests that you have any experience or qualifications whatsoever to coach free climbing. In short, you are completely full of shit.
Jay
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 6:39 AM
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lambone wrote: Old enough to have met one too many people like you in my lifetime.
People who don't speak up unless they know what they are talking about? People who don't pretend to have knowledge that they don't? People who don't pretend to be qualified to be climbing coaches? How did it go with them?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 13, 2007, 6:40 AM)
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lambone
Apr 13, 2007, 6:42 AM
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no, people with 12,000 posts on an internet forum.
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 7:05 AM
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lambone wrote: no, people with 12,000 posts on an internet forum.
Is there some relevance to that? I likely have more hours sailing, cross-country skiing, and taking statistics classes than you do. What does that have to do with being qualified to dispense knowledge about training for climbing?
Jay
P.S. Keep it up and I'm going to bury you.
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 13, 2007, 7:06 AM)
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lambone
Apr 13, 2007, 7:11 AM
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jt512
Apr 13, 2007, 7:22 AM
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lambone wrote: jt512 wrote: P.S. Keep it up and I'm going to bury you. oh, will you big man? should I be scared?
Whether you are scared or not is of no consequence. Just keep up the act: You keep pretending that you're qualified to coach climbing, and I'll keep demonstrating why you're not. I don't care if I spend the rest of my life doing this. At least I'll have outed one fucking phony in this sport for what he is.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 13, 2007, 7:24 AM)
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ihategrigris
Apr 13, 2007, 3:03 PM
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jt512 wrote: lambone wrote: jt512 wrote: P.S. Keep it up and I'm going to bury you. oh, will you big man? should I be scared? Whether you are scared or not is of no consequence. Just keep up the act: You keep pretending that you're qualified to coach climbing, and I'll keep demonstrating why you're not. I don't care if I spend the rest of my life doing this. At least I'll have outed one fucking phony in this sport for what he is. Jay
Lambone told me to tell you to meet him at the bike racks at 3 o'clock.... SHARP. He also said, and I quote: "bring it, bitch!".
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carabiner96
Apr 13, 2007, 3:27 PM
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jt512 wrote: lambone wrote: jt512 wrote: P.S. Keep it up and I'm going to bury you. oh, will you big man? should I be scared? Whether you are scared or not is of no consequence. Just keep up the act: You keep pretending that you're qualified to coach climbing, and I'll keep demonstrating why you're not. I don't care if I spend the rest of my life doing this. At least I'll have outed one fucking phony in this sport for what he is. Jay
*raises hand* still waiting for the demonstration...hurry up, it's almost recess!
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suzie_cuzie
Apr 13, 2007, 4:06 PM
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ihategrigris wrote: Lambone told me to tell you to meet him at the bike racks at 3 o'clock.... SHARP. He also said, and I quote: "bring it, bitch!".
Fights are supposed to be held at the flagpole, not at the bike racks. Gosh, you Calgarians! Such a backward people...
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ihategrigris
Apr 13, 2007, 4:10 PM
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suzie_cuzie wrote: ihategrigris wrote: Lambone told me to tell you to meet him at the bike racks at 3 o'clock.... SHARP. He also said, and I quote: "bring it, bitch!". Fights are supposed to be held at the flagpole, not at the bike racks. Gosh, you Calgarians! Such a backward people...
Whatever, and I'm not a Calgarian! I'm a British Columbian who lives in Calgary, get it right :).
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lena_chita
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Apr 13, 2007, 6:44 PM
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jt512 wrote: O, Lord, why do I persist? Jay
To provide a counterpoint to this gem?
In reply to: Jay, for some, this is just a source for discussing training techniques, and we don't want it to delve into the exact number of reps, with what weight, for how long, enabled us to climb X amount better. That would be asinine on a whole bunch of levels .... Arguing that because we don't have 'quantifiable' evidence that this workout is no good is asinine. I don't have quantifiable evidence that when I eat healthy, instead of junkfood, I'm healthier, but it's the truth. I don't have quantifiable evidence that when I train with the forearm rolling deal, I climb better, but I do. ... So, to sum up, it works, and works well. If you want more numbers than this, then piss off somewhere else to get them, and in the meantime, let others read this who aren't looking for your asinine level of 'quantifiable' detail.
Well, and of course the persistense serves to provide us random observers with a lot of fun reading to do instead of working...
Though I admit that this thread had almost made me choke on a piece of unquantifiably-good-for-me apple... However, I was not injured, and I felt much better after eating, so it obviosly works.
Keep it up, guys.
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ccourtney_99
Apr 14, 2007, 11:52 PM
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WOW.... When I last checked this thread a few days ago I had 14 replies. I guess I will just keep hitting the gym for now. Thanks guys/gals
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billgoat
Apr 20, 2007, 4:05 PM
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one thing I do is take 150 lb.s or so and just curl it with those filangese, pullups fingertips only they tend to help or you could learn how to play thrash metal on a bass guitar
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