|
phile
May 30, 2007, 10:39 PM
Post #1 of 20
(1139 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2004
Posts: 114
|
Hi, any tips on how to belay with a muenter without twisting the rope? I know it can be done, but I have no idea how. Sounds handy.
|
|
|
|
|
walkonyourhands
May 30, 2007, 10:54 PM
Post #2 of 20
(1121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 128
|
Just keep the strands parallel, that should minimize twisting the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
May 30, 2007, 10:57 PM
Post #3 of 20
(1112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
do a search on google, there are sites that shows you how to do it in steps.
What are using it for, belay or rap ?
|
|
|
|
|
zealotnoob
May 30, 2007, 11:00 PM
Post #4 of 20
(1107 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 2, 2006
Posts: 525
|
It's my favored method for bringing up a second, though, have never had an issue with twists. Apparently, it's a different matter should you try and rap with it.
|
|
|
|
|
LostinMaine
May 30, 2007, 11:41 PM
Post #5 of 20
(1081 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 8, 2007
Posts: 539
|
I have found that bringing up a second on a loose Meunter has reduced twisting a lot. When I bring someone up while forcing the rope as tight as it will go I notice more twisting.
could just be my mind playing games with me, though.
|
|
|
|
|
phile
May 31, 2007, 1:16 AM
Post #6 of 20
(1039 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2004
Posts: 114
|
walkonyourhands wrote: Just keep the strands parallel, that should minimize twisting the rope.
Like figure B in this pic? Isn't that the position in which it locks?
http://www.chockstone.org/...Tips/MunterHitch.htm
(This post was edited by phile on May 31, 2007, 1:16 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
paulraphael
May 31, 2007, 1:21 AM
Post #7 of 20
(1029 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2004
Posts: 670
|
LostinMaine wrote: I have found that bringing up a second on a loose Meunter has reduced twisting a lot. When I bring someone up while forcing the rope as tight as it will go I notice more twisting.
i think this is true. when i get lazy and pull the rope down through the munter with my brake hand, rather than pulling the other strand up with my other hand, the rope often turns into a mess.
pulling the rope through the munter keeps the knot tighter and seems to twist things. not sure why, though.
|
|
|
|
|
coolcat83
May 31, 2007, 1:52 AM
Post #8 of 20
(1006 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 1007
|
called the supermunter,
never tried it in the field but seems to work at home playing around, anyone use this?
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
May 31, 2007, 2:25 AM
Post #9 of 20
(988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
I may be off base, but I believe that the Muenter doesn't twist the rope. As it's normally employed the hitch doesn't pass a twisted rope well*, so what it's doing is pushing the twists that are already in your rope down towards the end, where you get the familiar phone cord coil effect. So the problem goes back to (probably) how you first opened your rope when it was new. If you didn't properly unroll the rope from the factory coil, then you started out with 50+ twists in it. The Muenter is merely trying to straighten the mess out.
* try keeping the hitch loose and feeding the rope actively into it, twists and all.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
May 31, 2007, 2:29 AM
Post #10 of 20
(981 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Brake side needs to be away from the gate. especialy while rapping.
|
|
|
|
|
rockguide
May 31, 2007, 5:03 AM
Post #11 of 20
(921 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2004
Posts: 1359
|
LostinMaine wrote: I have found that bringing up a second on a loose Meunter has reduced twisting a lot. When I bring someone up while forcing the rope as tight as it will go I notice more twisting. could just be my mind playing games with me, though.
No, you have that right.
|
|
|
|
|
rockguide
May 31, 2007, 5:07 AM
Post #12 of 20
(912 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2004
Posts: 1359
|
coolcat83 wrote: [image]http://z.about.com/d/climbing/1/5/1/2/muntersuper2.jpg[/image] called the supermunter, never tried it in the field but seems to work at home playing around, anyone use this?
That is what we call the Monster Munter (at least up here) and it is a lowering system, not a belaying system. Good luck bringing slack up.
As an anchor lowering system it is excellent, especially if you are lowering someone heavy down something steep or overhanging : Lots of friction and minimal rope twisting (it is really two munters - one twists and the other twists the other way).
I suppose it could be used as a single strand rappel as well - I just have not done that.
|
|
|
|
|
josephgdawson
May 31, 2007, 5:35 AM
Post #13 of 20
(902 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 303
|
I too know that picture as the Super Munter. I learned it from a guide who uses it to lower clients on glaciers. It can also be used to belay. It does not twist the rope like the regular Munter because it twists it and then untwists it.
To make one, start out by making a regular Munter hitch and (from the perspective of the picture that was posted) grab the strand of rope on the far right and clip it through the biner so the it runs out toward you
|
|
|
|
|
walkonyourhands
May 31, 2007, 11:28 AM
Post #14 of 20
(860 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 128
|
In reply to: walkonyourhands wrote: Just keep the strands parallel, that should minimize twisting the rope. Like figure B in this pic? Isn't that the position in which it locks? http://www.chockstone.org/...Tips/MunterHitch.htm
Yes, figure B would be the position that produces minimal twist, fig. A would be the least ideal.
The locking/feeding/"slack-taking" positions don't matter.
I always try to keep the strands parallel in every situation, so I don't make any difference between feeding/locking,…
When doing Mulitipitch I belay from the power point (yes, I'm one of those Euros) and keep both strands on the lower side of the biner, even when belaying a leader. (ok, only on easier routes with little, but good pro where slack doesn't matter that much)
Occasionally I use the munter for belaying sport from the harness, in that case the load side and the break side of the rope both face up. There are different opinions on that, but that way you minimize twist.
It's crucial that you push the rope through the munter rather than just pulling - use both hands.
Rapelling on a munter is a pain in the a anyway, trying to hold the brake rope up wouldn't improve that much. Just keep it in mind as an emergency option and then keep the break hand below the munter.
That should describe how I try to minimize twist in the ropes, this knowledge is collected from different sources and experiences (trial and error). And it probably is the euro way of things 'though I'm pretty familiar with Chief Long and the US tech.
Sorry for the bad language.
|
|
|
|
|
phile
May 31, 2007, 6:51 PM
Post #15 of 20
(758 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2004
Posts: 114
|
thanks for all the great input, everyone. interesting--sounds like the munter doesn't twist the rope, it straightens it.
walkonyourhands, your english is above average as far as internet forums go...
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
May 31, 2007, 7:04 PM
Post #16 of 20
(750 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
tradmanclimbs wrote: Brake side needs to be away from the gate. especialy while rapping.
sorry, this really isn't right. the muenter is strongest when the load strand is next to the spine of the biner.
EXTREMELY important when lead belaying with one;
VERY important when bringing up a second or lowering a second from above (plus, when bringing up a second or lowering a second from above, the brake strand doesn't ever get pulled into the UP position such that it will unscrew/unclip the gate)
MODERATELY important with rapping-HOWEVER it is unimportant enought that when rapping it is safer to have the load strand next to the gate and the break strand next to the spine becaue when rapping the brake strand is ALWAYS running up and if tied with the brake strand next to the gate COULD mess with safety.
****SUMMATION****Rapping is the only (of course in climbing there are no "only's" but this is close enough for gov't work) time the brake strand should be next to the spine: for all belaying app's the load strand needs to be next to the spine
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
May 31, 2007, 7:04 PM
Post #17 of 20
(748 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
gunkiemike wrote: I may be off base, but I believe that the Muenter doesn't twist the rope.
Seems off base to me, rapping on a rope with a Muenter always twists the heck out of it for me. Even after multiple raps.
coolcat83 - you rule for showing that variation, I've never seen it before - but I'm heading out tonight and I'll try it.
Old dawg, new tricks.
Regards all
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
catbird_seat
May 31, 2007, 8:57 PM
Post #18 of 20
(721 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2004
Posts: 425
|
The Munter Hitch WILL twist the heck out of any rope if the incoming and outgoing strands are not parallel. The one time it is easy to do this is when belaying a follower off the anchor. In other uses, like rappelling, this is difficult as you are fighting gravity.
In rescue I was taught that lowering two persons, an ordinary Muenter does not have enough friction to be safe. Hence the use of the double carabiner brake and belays involving double prusik knots.
It seems to me that a Super Munter would be superior to either of these as it could be set up more quickly and can't jam, like prusik knots. This all assumes that it works as advertised.
Is there any Super Munter test data out there?
Any German Speakers? Werner Munter called the hitch a "halbmastwurf" which translates as "half mast throw". Apparently the name HMS Carabiner comes from the German name for the Munter?
(This post was edited by catbird_seat on May 31, 2007, 9:11 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
coolcat83
Jun 1, 2007, 2:31 AM
Post #19 of 20
(670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 1007
|
i tried the super with my very unscientific home test rig, ie, hook in my ceiling with a big weight on a rope, basically it is possible to take in slack but it's not easy you really have to hand feed in the load strand, but for lowering it rocks i got no twists holding the brake strand down and it has tons of friction, might be a good method for those slow raps with a heavy pack.
|
|
|
|
|
david_smithrock
Jun 1, 2007, 4:38 AM
Post #20 of 20
(652 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 12, 2006
Posts: 361
|
The best way not to get twists is to feed the rope through a bit at a time. Grasp the rope a short way down the brake strand, and as you lower (normally when you get twists) feed that section through, then reset and grab more rope, etc. It's hardly any slower, and you can do it easily even with a backup. That keeps any energy from piling up down the brake strand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
