The Red Tag.... It's a piece of tape or ribbon attached to a bolt or pro to identify it as a project. It doesn't have to be red but that is the colour of choice if available.
Route development is a investment of not only money for anchors/bolts but is a major investment of time and energy. To have someone come along and pick a FA, like picking a ripe apple of a tree, is just plain disrespectful of the climber who gives of themself for the benefit of all. All I ask is that you let the climber reap the fruits of their labour.
Last week-end I went to one of the crags I'm developing to redpoint my project. While I was on a rest break between tries, some new climbers[to the secret cliff] come along and set up under a section called The Three Sisters. I go to see what their doing and see one of the guys getting ready to send another project of my friend. La Salope 5.10? middle sister needs a long dry spell to dry out. My friend and I spent over 40 hours each brushing 1 inch thick lichen, moving earth of the ledge, bolting the three routes. Two of which are sent but the last one was left for another day. The next day out it was wet and it didn't come in for 8 months, until last week-end. Now this guy gets all in my face about what's the difference. That it doesn't change anything in the grand scheme of things. That he's glad when his project gets sent by someone else. There are about 20 routes that are open to climb. All of which are top quality.
One last thought, if a project is just too hard and it's taking forever/never to do it. I would think it respectful of the developer it to let others have a go. Call it an open project.
The red tag policy is one that is respected differently at individual crags across the country.
Locally (SoCal) most people respect them because bolting new routes on our local choss is a huge undertaking in time in addition to the costs involved. I think this is the way it should be.
The only exception would be if a project has sat inactive for a long period of time, or if the bolter has abandoned it. In a perfect scenario, it would become common knowledge (by the bolter spreading the word) that the route was opened to others, but that doesn't always happen.
I look forward to seeing what the consensus is with this. As someone who has spent tens of thousands of dollars bolting routes, and untold hours, I hope most people respect the concept.
Having put in a lot of time and effort into a few new routes myself, I can totally understand wanting to keep people off of your project until you have either nailed it or decided it is just plain too hard. Personally, I don't have that kind of patience, and if I can't do a route in a few weeks of trying, it is fair game for someone better than I. (I like to justify my ego by thinking that I develop for the community as a whole, not just myself )
I have heard that a rule of thumb, at least in some areas, is a project is to be left to the developer for a year, and then it becomes open.... I realise 8 months isn't a year, but it is still quite a long time. But, I still fully agree that the guy was a total jerk for not respecting that the project was not open for just anyone to try.
Maybe it would be worth considering removing the lowest one or two hangers off of projects that you won't be visiting for a while!?
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jun 12, 2007, 2:49 AM)
At most "secret cliffs" you shouldn't have to worry about people stealing your pj's. Sounds like an inside job. Sucks. I respect the red tag, but have seen it taken to the extreme.
I agree.. Leave it alone unless you've talked to the bolter and figure out what the deal is.. it may also not be finished and you could find yourself in a sticky situation. That happened a year or 2 ago a guy got on a route at rumney that only had the first 2-3 bolts done.. he decided to take a go on it (glue ins.. also a bit sketchy to not know when they went in) and lucky for him was solid above the grade so it was just a major run out and not a big fall.. but still. Let things get finished up and then take your turn.
The reason it toke 8 months is that it was bolted in October of last year. Then by the next week-end it was sopping wet. It didn't dry out until last week-end.
La Salope is french for "dirty bitch". In this case it's the dirty wet whore. Mid pitch is a triangular alcove with a protruding chockstone at it's top. The water seeps heavily from behind within this alcove.
I agree with the 1 year rule of thumb though. It just hard to apply it in this case. Plus this clown was new to the crag so he couldn't have known how long the project has been up.
If I'm out cragging and I'm just following attractive lines up, I'd climb past a red tag, if the line looked good. To me, it's just another route out cragging.
I only have trad projects, hard cracks mainly. I've got stuff that I've worked on for 2 years and dream of sending someday. They remain unsent because they are in an area no-one goes. Most of them wouldn't bother me if someone sent it while out climbing, I'd even appreciate that person adding the anchor instead of me. But there's always that "one" that means a lot to you. It's more than some moves on some rock; I could see being upset over missing the FA on that "one".
At most "secret cliffs" you shouldn't have to worry about people stealing your pj's. Sounds like an inside job. Sucks. I respect the red tag, but have seen it taken to the extreme.
It's never secret forever. The clifff is close to a popular hiking trail so the word evetually get's around. That's OK 'cause we planned on making it public in RC.com's RDB later this summer. After we picked off all the classics. This guy was new.
Just thought I'd add. I once saw a friend of mine's project and it looked great. I told him I would like to try it. He was cool with it and somehow I onsighted the thing for the FFA. Upon coming down he was beaming, really excited that I'd managed the thing. He was the first to congratulate me for the thing and the way I moved was what allowed him the second ascent a week later.
Glad he didn't steal it that day, but if I were you and this guy climbs in your area, then I would definitely be taking hangers off my projects between sessions. Kinda sad, but I guess there are always going to be jerks around (at least he doesn't run around chopping routes like some others we've heard about).
Angry, you were respectful in asking him first. I've let a few friends sent a couple of my projects and it did felt good to see them do it. But that was my decision. I've also denied access on other routes.
There is an exception for clean cracks. There is no labour in cleaning there is nothing to call your own.
I would probably respect the red tag in any situation I came upon it, but I do think it's a touch hypocritical to tout all the work you've done on a route as justification for saving the fa for yourself when it's an area you have intentionally kept secret to prevent other people from getting "classic" fa's. It doesn't sound like this guy is the type that would have put in the work given the opportunity, so screw him, but if it were someone else the situation might have been different.
(This post was edited by spoon on Jun 12, 2007, 3:46 AM)
I would probably respect the red tag in any situation I came upon it, but I do think it's a touch hypocritical to tout all the work you've done on a route as justification for saving the fa for yourself when it's an area you have intentionally kept secret to prevent other people from getting "classic" fa's. It doesn't sound like this guy is the type that would have put in the work given the opportunity, so screw him, but if it were someone else the situation might have been different.
Yeah, like someone who asked if the project was open or not, or just someone who didn't get bent out of shape when the developer asked that he not do it. Like it or not, keeping areas "secret" while they are being developed is common practice in the climbing community (at least in any area I've ever lived). It is a lot of work to develop a new route (at least mossy sport routes are), and as egotistical as it may sound, it is a nice feeling to see your name next to the "FA" after all the work. It is like being a little part of history. Unfortunately, guides don't often note who the developer was (I have seen a few), but they tend to note who did the FA. As a climber and fellow developer, I see absolutely nothing hypocritical in what rocknice2 said.
here its usually respected. there were some cases when someone 'stole' a project that was left alone for some time (a few years) that really sparked a debate, but in most cases if the developer cant climb it in a shoortish time, theyll open the project.
Red Tag Story- Back in the mid 90s there were some folks developing a sport area in AZ. They kept it semi private while all the best routes were climbed...or at least bolted(and "comfortized"). It was an unreal area with heaps more potential. Well, the developers planned a big reveal with a guidebook and all, and the place got lots of traffic. There were red tags EVERYWHERE. Strong climbers were showing up, and there were fallouts/drama with the original crew of developers. I happened to be climbing in the canyon one day when one of the developers showed up to find one of the others on her route. Holy awkward moment! Oh the drama. Now, there were enough red tags that even if the developers had sent one project once a week ther would still be red tags after a year, or two! For all I know there could still be faded ribbons and twist ties blowing in the wind there. Although that area is beautiful and fun to climb at now, it was, in almost every way, a model of how not to develop an incredible spot. Egos and greed tainted and "altered" the area forever Visitors and developers alike need to respect the red tag. Good luck rocknice
I generally develope sport routes with at least one other person. We put a bunch of time in to sorting out the best clipping stances, best line, etc. I've found that involving more than one person in this early stage of development always leads to a better finished route. We then work the route together, sharing beta, until it gets sent. And, if someone respectfully asks if they can have a go, we almost always say yes. I guess I'm just not that hung up on the FA issue anymore, though I can remember a time when I was. Now, I find it hard to get that worked up about some clip-up. Don't get me wrong, I like to sport climb, and I love the friendly competition with my friends to fire a line first, but that's about all the interest I have in the FA. Of course ground-up trad projects are an entirely different story, and I'm rather protective of them.
One final point: In areas where red tags are respected, I believe a climber should be allowed one project at a time. That story about the early days of the Arizona crag (sounds like Jack's and Diedre, lol) is absurd.
(This post was edited by cfnubbler on Jun 12, 2007, 12:56 PM)
The sort of red tags you boys are talking about are safe enough from the likes of ME!
But I'd respect em anyway.
Me and some friends are working various new areas. Its an odd weekend when a new route doesn't at least get worked on.
Anyway, we extend the red tag courtesy to each other carte blanche. If one of my bros is working a route the only way I'd get on it is with permission or an invite.
Its all about respect. Deep down most style and ethical issues in our sport come down to this same crux.
The problem is that the project is a 5.10. I did it on TR. I could have just sent it last week-end but I would like my friend to get his first FA.
oh, that is a bummer...
I had a similar situation once a couple years ago. We spent all day scrubbing a chossy line, marking bolt placements, etc. The line shared an anchor with a neighboring .11.
halfway through the day, some guys we know showed up and were climbing at the same wall. Asked what we were doing, all that. Now, we had to get home early for some reason, and time was tight. We knew those dudes and liked them, but thought they'd jump on the new line the second it was done. So, we just drilled the bottom three holes and didn't put the steel in. Had to pound them in next visit, and the line went on my first go, probably an .11a.
Maybe this is being elitist? But it seems to me like maybe the time you get your red tag respected should be shorter for easier routes?
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