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climbsomething
Jun 16, 2007, 2:24 AM
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Do it! DO IT BUTTHEAD!!!
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curt
Jun 16, 2007, 4:49 AM
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rgold wrote: ...Betty is OK. I'd put it pretty far down the list. I think Three Pines and Northern Pillar are much better if the guided hordes are not plastered on them. Probably require a weekday. Minty is good if she has the physical ability to get past the first ten feet. Of course you belay right there on top of the block. Casa Emilio is an excellent option for a crowded weekend; you might end up with the whole wall to yourselves. Beginner's Delight is the best, but not perhaps for the very time out unless she's really gung-ho and you know exactly where the route goes and how to arrange the protection for her...
I'd also add Andrew to that list.
Curt
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rgold
Jun 16, 2007, 5:58 AM
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I guess I'm still feeling argumentative. Most of the people who are promoting shorter climbs on the grounds of "easing" the beginner into climbing are also proposing routes two to four grades harder than what I'm suggesting.
I think this involves a misunderstanding of the issues that face a beginner. It isn't about challenging them; there's plenty of time, a lifetime really, for that. The goal of the first experience should be the opposite of challenging, at least in the physical sense. The goal should be to open doors and change perspectives, to show people that what they can do far surpasses what they think they can do, that the vertical world can be accessible.
The challenge is coping with the height and exposure while learning that you really can climb a 250 foot vertical face using just your hands and feet. The climbing should be so easy, it really is doable for almost anyone. You shouldn't be falling or hanging on your first climb, and you shouldn't be marginal either.
This type of experience cannot always be arranged. We are fortunate to be able to provide it in the Gunks.
Shaky's story about Shockley's is an all too commonplace phenomenom. If you've been around much, you've seen it over and over. (Jackie is a common location too, by the way.) What could the leader of that disaster possibly have been thinking? Dark motives suggest themselves. Was he trying to demonstrate his superiority to his soon to be ex-girlfriend? Did this choice of routes flow from some buried (but not buried enough) wellspring of hostility? Was he so selfish in his desire for intersting climbing for himself that he just hauled his girlfriend along with no real regard for her experience? Or, to give him the benefit of the doubt, was he just stupider than the day is long?
Sorry to raise this issue, but these conflicts do seem to have a nasty sexist component to them. A lot of guys really do suck.
Some other thoughts: Gelsa is a disaster in the making; communication on the long second pitch will provide a potential nightmare for a beginning follower. You must be able to see and speak to your follower at all times.
No climb with significant traversing is appropriate, unless the ropes can be arranged to provide overhead protection at all points for the second. Never expose a new climber to what is, after all, a leader fall on a traversing pitch. Sheesh!
If you can get away from the hurly-burly, I think it is a good idea. Don't even think about the Uberfall climbs. There's something very private about one's first encounter with a steep cliff. Going through this first paradigm shift with a mob all around you chattering away and possibly bombarding you with helpful advice you can't make the least sense of is not a relaxing experience, nor one many people will be anxious to repeat.
I say go long and easy, walk off, call it a day after one, and spend some quality time off the rocks for the rest of the day.
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jt512
Jun 16, 2007, 6:18 AM
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rgold wrote: I guess I'm still feeling argumentative. Most of the people who are promoting shorter climbs on the grounds of "easing" the beginner into climbing are also proposing routes two to four grades harder than what I'm suggesting. I think this involves a misunderstanding of the issues that face a beginner. It isn't about challenging them; there's plenty of time, a lifetime really, for that. The goal of the first experience should be the opposite of challenging, at least in the physical sense. The goal should be to open doors and change perspectives, to show people that what they can do far surpasses what they think they can do, that the vertical world can be accessible. The challenge is coping with the height and exposure while learning that you really can climb a 250 foot vertical face using just your hands and feet. The climbing should be so easy, it really is doable for almost anyone. You shouldn't be falling or hanging on your first climb, and you shouldn't be marginal either. This type of experience cannot always be arranged. We are fortunate to be able to provide it in the Gunks. Shaky's story about Shockley's is an all too commonplace phenomenom. If you've been around much, you've seen it over and over. (Jackie is a common location too, by the way.) What could the leader of that disaster possibly have been thinking? Dark motives suggest themselves. Was he trying to demonstrate his superiority to his soon to be ex-girlfriend? Did this choice of routes flow from some buried (but not buried enough) wellspring of hostility? Was he so selfish in his desire for intersting climbing for himself that he just hauled his girlfriend along with no real regard for her experience? Or, to give him the benefit of the doubt, was he just stupider than the day is long? Sorry to raise this issue, but these conflicts do seem to have a nasty sexist component to them. A lot of guys really do suck. Some other thoughts: Gelsa is a disaster in the making; communication on the long second pitch will provide a potential nightmare for a beginning follower. You must be able to see and speak to your follower at all times. No climb with significant traversing is appropriate, unless the ropes can be arranged to provide overhead protection at all points for the second. Never expose a new climber to what is, after all, a leader fall on a traversing pitch. Sheesh! If you can get away from the hurly-burly, I think it is a good idea. Don't even think about the Uberfall climbs. There's something very private about one's first encounter with a steep cliff. Going through this first paradigm shift with a mob all around you chattering away and possibly bombarding you with helpful advice you can't make the least sense of is not a relaxing experience, nor one many people will be anxious to repeat. I say go long and easy, walk off, call it a day after one, and spend some quality time off the rocks for the rest of the day.
So, how often did this approach get you laid?
Jay
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livinonasandbar
Jun 16, 2007, 11:59 AM
Post #30 of 75
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Shakylegs nailed it... Shockley's Ceiling is definitely the one to start your girlfriend out on. Anchor yourself well back from the top edge to make sure you can't hear each other yelling. Then take up the slack and give her a few tugs to start her on her way up. Settle in and enjoy the rope action... feel her ease across the traverse and up toward the crux move over the roof. The rope will then be still for a bit while she ponders the move. After that, the fun begins... up, down, up, weight, down, up, down, up, weight, down, etc. After about 20 minutes, you'll have a decision to make: tie her off, and rap down the other end to see what's going on; wait for an opportune move and commit to physically hauling her up and over the roof; or tie her off and run for your life...
I understand that Shockley's has been the cause of numerous break-ups, cancelled engagements, and even divorces... been there, done that!
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devkrev
Jun 16, 2007, 1:37 PM
Post #31 of 75
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jt512 wrote: So, how often did this approach get you laid? Jay
I don't think this is the approach to try to GET laid, I think this is the approach to KEEP getting laid.
dev
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mheyman
Jun 17, 2007, 3:10 AM
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I think there are two extreme cases. Rgold has one of them nailed. That case is that she wants to climb so badly that she will hire a guide to take her, and don’t mean this in any derogatory way. But the other extreme case is that you are dragging her out to climb with you. Then easing into the sport by top roping might be better advice. The reality is probably somewhere between these cases.
Rgold made a comment about being able to comfortably solo the route, which I feel is very wise advice for two reasons. She should not have to catch you, and you should not be dependent on her to do it unless she has practiced a good bit, and, it will probably keep you closer to the grade she should be starting at. This single Idea has previously kept me from “guiding“ my own children in the past. It is just this year that I feel confident enough to take them up a multi-pitch route with me - if they want to come.
A few years back I was part of a group hosting climbing from various parts of the country. The locals split up to lead the visitors on nearby routes. I was pretty green, and was volunteered to lead a California couple up route. Jackie was nearby, nobody else had chosen it – they had all picked harder routes, and to be honest it was the hardest thing I felt I could lead visitors on. So I get up the first pitch in (only) fair style, only to have the visiting climbers with what I thought was far more experience than me hang quite a bit before getting past the crux. Turned out I could have picked something easier and they probably would have had a better time!
In reply to: Heheheeh ... you said: In reply to:kicked him in the jimmy you just passed the test
Yeah, granite grrl passes the test over and over!
(This post was edited by mheyman on Jun 17, 2007, 3:40 AM)
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limeydave
Jun 17, 2007, 12:30 PM
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zealotnoob wrote: My girlfriend has expressed a little interest in climbing, which, of course, has me really excited. If she would only bite as hard as I, I'm sure she'd be a keeper... But there is the possibility that she's only expressing interest to placate me. Regardless, I intend to find out this weekend on a day trip to the Gunks. My intent is to take her up one of the easy classics--5.3 or 5.4--all the way to the top. She shouldn't be too challenged physically, but, mentally, she'll either have to embrace it (at which point she'll become hooked) or she'll freeze and swear it off (and I'll know where she stands). What I seek from the RC community: What are other good ways to plant the climbing seed? Special considerations so as to not scare her off? What would be an ideal route? (I'm thinking Yum Yum presently)
There'd better be a trip report when you get back.
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clee03m
Jun 17, 2007, 3:08 PM
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Long, short, multiple pitch, single pitch, it doesn't matter. She will either love it or not. It's kind of like asking a girl out. It's not how you ask her out, really. It's you. If I think you are cute, I'll respond. If you look like an ass, no matter how smooth, you are turned down.
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percious
Jun 17, 2007, 4:01 PM
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clee03m wrote: Long, short, multiple pitch, single pitch, it doesn't matter. She will either love it or not. It's kind of like asking a girl out. It's not how you ask her out, really. It's you. If I think you are cute, I'll respond. If you look like an ass, no matter how smooth, you are turned down.
I kind of agree with this. Take her on High E.  :-P[/:P] ok maybe not. Why not just set a TR somewhere down on the Uberfall for the first time? The place has a great vibe and you can always stroll down the carriage road later in the day and check out a 1-pitch wonder or something.
I remember my first time out, and I was able to second a 5.8(1 pitch), but rappelling made me really nervous.
If multi pitch it must be, I think hiring a guide to take you up will take a ton of pressure off you and will be worth the $300. That way if she has a bad time she can't really blame it on you. With a guide you will probably be able to climb together, since it is common for a guide to use two ropes with his seconds climbing at the same time. Plus, guides have good action plans should you need to bail, and they have great ways of getting lost pieces back without leaving your GF on the ledge alone, belaying you from the top. If she likes it, day 2 you can be her guide.
How many beginners have you taken up thus far?
-percious
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uzibear
Jun 17, 2007, 5:29 PM
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here's my opinion on taking a complete beginner: toprope; you don't know if she'll freak out or be able to clean your gear, or you'll have something serious
i tried to take my dad up munginella in yosemite and it was a bad idea, he was pulling on the rope to get up at points, terrified, and i didn't give him near enough practice with cleaning gear and belaying; i still regret that, glad it didn't go wrong
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uzibear
Jun 17, 2007, 5:34 PM
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try to remember what it was like the very first time you ever climbed; if you're like me, you were freaked out, and that was a little toprope; remember "it's just a 5.5" makes no sense to a beginner; they think they're going to die; you have to convince them they're not, that they can trust the gear; so go topropping, that way you can lower her if she can't hack it
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gunkiemike
Jun 17, 2007, 6:30 PM
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clee03m wrote: Long, short, multiple pitch, single pitch, it doesn't matter. She will either love it or not. It's kind of like asking a girl out. It's not how you ask her out, really. It's you. If I think you are cute, I'll respond. If you look like an ass, no matter how smooth, you are turned down.
Wait a minute - I thought women were attracted to a man's bank account. Now you tell me it's all about looks?
What's a rich, polite, gentle, kind, considerate, romantic butt-ugly guy to do?
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tradrenn
Jun 18, 2007, 2:58 AM
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My sugestion would be to listen to Rgold guy, he knows a thing or two about climbing at the Gunks.
My suggestion would be to do Bunny 5.4 on toprope with no gear for her to clean (the hardest part is the first 20-25 feet)
If it was me I would try to have a serious discussion with my girl and I would tell her that it doesn't matter if she climbs or not, but I would appreciate if she could understand my love for it.
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granite_grrl
Jun 18, 2007, 1:09 PM
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mheyman wrote: In reply to: Heheheeh ... you said: In reply to:kicked him in the jimmy you just passed the test Yeah, granite grrl passes the test over and over!
What? I didn't say that...I think it was Climbsomething, and she totally passes the test.
It first I was going to flame rgold for wanting to get her on something exposed, maybe kinda scarey, but I think he clairified himself in the last post.
Something with a bit of exposure, multipitch, that she finishes will give her a great feeling of accomplishment. But get on something as easy as climbing a ladder, she'll be challanged enough by her head.
Or you could challange her physically, and keep the fear portion to a minimum. I think the key is not to give her too many things that she has to deal with and let the fear and pressure overwhelm her. Whether you challange her physically or mentally and how much is something the OP needs to decide knowing the personality of his gf.
I think you should ease her into it a little bit, don't overwhelm her. I say this from my experiance of getting back into climbing after my accident. My husband did some stupid things the first bunch of times that we get back out climbing. I begged him to let the first step to my recovery be to enjoy the day of climbing. I think he wanted me to start facing my fears too early. If something had happened early when I was getting back into climbing (like him falling when soloing a short 20-30ft waterfall that he insisted to solo the first time we went out ice climbing this last year) I think it would have been too much for me and I would have sworn off climbing. Thank god that didn't happen.
Watch your girl, be sensitive to her. I still stand that the first step to climbing is having fun and enjoying yourself.
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mheyman
Jun 18, 2007, 1:51 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: mheyman wrote: In reply to: Heheheeh ... you said: In reply to:kicked him in the jimmy you just passed the test Yeah, granite grrl passes the test over and over! What? I didn't say that...I think it was Climbsomething, and she totally passes the test. You're right of course. Darn!
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microbarn
Jun 18, 2007, 2:21 PM
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rgold's second post clarified things a lot. I could see you choosing that option.
Something that is being left out that is worth considering. There are a TON of things to learn when you go multipitching. As a guide, you deal with this daily and you have methods of teaching people things without the ambush of everything at once.
IF you can arrange for several repetitions of the important information AND you take things very slow for them... then I can see the multipitch being a good option.
My default recommendation is for top roping something easy. This is partly because you don't have to be as good of a teacher. Top roping allows you to teach things as they arise, and it keeps you closer for communication if needed.
Based on the fact that you are introducing your gf to climbing for the first time, I assume you are not an experienced teacher. So, I would recommend top roping.
PS, I enjoy climbing tremendously, but the exposure is something I am still working myself up to. Most people don't want to be overwhelmed with exposure on their first trip out. Be prepared to work slowly up to the exposure.
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burrito
Jun 18, 2007, 2:25 PM
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clee03m wrote: Long, short, multiple pitch, single pitch, it doesn't matter. She will either love it or not. It's kind of like asking a girl out. It's not how you ask her out, really. It's you. If I think you are cute, I'll respond. If you look like an ass, no matter how smooth, you are turned down.
That's crazy talk.  It's all about giving things a chance (climbing, dating, whatever). My boyfriend took me to the Gunks for the first time in January of 2006, put me on what we now both agree were ridiculous climbs for a complete beginner (Baby, Arch), and I thought it was awful. Like, wanted to kill him, wondered why I'd ever hooked up with him, decided I wasn't destined to climb outside ever again kind of awful. But after we talked about it and figured out what scared me (exposure, mainly) and what I liked (fun climbing), he started finding routes that were better suited for me at that stage in my climbing life, and voila! I just led my first 5.6 there last weekend, just over a year after a near-meltdown over the same grade on TR. Proof that a little patience and thoughtfulness goes a long way.
She will get more out of the experience if you consider what SHE might like. Nothing too steep, nothing to exposed, and you should be good to go. And probably guaranteed another trip there with her in the future...
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on_belay_hombre
Jun 18, 2007, 3:17 PM
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HAHA....I love it!
My first climb at the Gunks was beginner's delight and it was awesome. The second was Shockley's ceiling...and I was hooked. Now there's a gf test! I hear that route actually has a reputation....
just kidding. I agree with the whole "ease into it" approach as well. Since I know you like this girl zealot, take it easy and let it be her idea to get addicted =P. Plus she seems really cool anyways, so even if she doesnt end up addicted to climbing you might have somthing there anyways...
Climb On!
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cellardoor
Jun 18, 2007, 3:41 PM
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for research purposes, if you haven't climbed all of the 5.3s at the gunks, there are youtube videos of some beginners climbing each one. just search 'gunks' on youtube.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 18, 2007, 4:42 PM
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If you really want a climbing GF and not someone who just climbs for you then do everything RGold suggests. If she likes the full experience then she will be back for more. if not, good riddance If you are not totally confident, competent, relaxed and patient don't bother trying to teach her yourself unless you just want to get rid of her. You have to be a good teacher and know how to give the student a confidence inspireing day. plan for success not failure. a few weeks ago I watched a so called guide (annother tool with the dredded AMGA TOP ROPE certification) send a student up on a 5.10+ their first time climbing outdoors. What a tool. The student got spanked, scared and humiliated and most likly will not climb outside again.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 18, 2007, 5:15 PM
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Wellllll?
Rc.com reconn records show that our OP has in fact logged on to the site this fine Monday morning....
We're waiting!
At least give us a sentence or two, and if you feel the need to elaborate, you can do that later.
Both days were stellar for climbing, although a little muggy...unless of course you got stuck in the rainshower late Saturday..... No one to blame but yourslef if that happened, though...
Anyway - I really hope the narcistic tone in the original post is just one of those flukes of internet speak, and you really don't have such an attitude of superiority. Cause if that's the case, I have the feeling you took a bit of a whipper yourself in this outing.....
And, if that's the case, and she said she DID like climbing, but not the way things went this time..... may I suggest having her check out the Sterling Ropes Goddesses on the Rocks workshop that will be coming up at the New River Gorge this autumn.
That is near enough to you, and will be a great place for her to get to gain some climbing skills and meet other women who climb and have a great weekend to boot.
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cracklover
Jun 18, 2007, 5:25 PM
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Yup. Very curious to hear how it went.
GO
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zealotnoob
Jun 18, 2007, 7:36 PM
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First off, I regret the superficial implication that this was a "test." It was meant to be cheeky. That being said, isn't pretty much everything in dating a test? :)
Second, to fill in a little background: she had been toproping once and to a rock gym a couple times, spread over the past year, so there was a very base level of familiarity.
TR:
With a long drive from Philly to the Gunks, I had hoped to get an early start. 600am was the plan. We left at 630.
"30 mins late," my mind nagged, "time...effeciency is essencential!" This was the part of my brain that wants to go alpine--the part that wants every minutia of a trip to make an elegant contribution the whole. "This is a different kind of trip," I resolved, "I HAVE to go with the flow."
A quick stop to pay homage at Rock and Snow, then the Bistro Mountain Store and we were parked and headed up the Stairmaster.
My intent was to climb Betty (5.3) as the highlight of our day, following a TR tutorial on P1 of Finger Locks (5.5). Of course, the guide wall was thronged. I consulted the guide book and spotted Easy V (5.3) over by Arrow.
We took our time getting the gear ready and went over the concepts.
Teachers make bad students.
By invoking this generalization I don't mean to say my that gf, a teacher of inner-city kids with behavioral problems, didn't listen to me. It was just hard to tell.
I climbed the first pitch, which was long and slightly slabby, with soloing in mind, set up a TR achor and rapped down, leaving the gear for her to clean.
She climbed it without pause, leaving a tricky cam for me to clean.
Seeing that she was completely unphased upon returning her to terra firma, I went over the plan for completing the second pitch. She would belay me to the top of P1, this time on TR, I'd bring her up, then we'd have to traverse the GT ledge about 40', then complete the last short section, which contained the crux.
After bringing her up to the GT ledge I asked her how she felt about walking unroped across the ledge to the beginning of the next pitch. The ledge is a good ten feet wide and is perfectly flat. Nonetheless, I still get a little freaked walking it, naked of the systems of protection I'm used to having in exposed placed. She shrugged, "yeah, that's fine," and untied her knot.
Following me across the ledge, coming out of the corner of the first pitch, we attained full-view of the landscape. Gorgeous.
"Woah, I didn't realize how high we are," she said. I smiled internally. "We're not really going up there?" she asked, pointing at a V-notch in a typical Gunks roof, which comprises the crux of the route.
"You're going to rock it," I told her, trying her off to a large tree. She put me on belay and I set off.
"Okay, but don't fall."
I climbed the pitch, taking note of the key moves I used, in case I'd need to offer beta. I put her on belay and she proceeded up.
I heard my name drift in the breeze as she approached the crux. "You got it hon!" I offerred.
I saw her head appear through the notch. "I don't like you right now," she said, showing her uncertainty of the situation.
"I know you can do this."
"I know I can do it too, but I don't want to," she stated.
"Had I pushed too far?" I wondered for a split second, as she pulled through the crux with hardly an issue.
I brought her up and we relaxed, both of us happy.
To this point I hadn't made up my mind whether it would be best to walk-off or I should lower her, or just teach her to rappel. Everything having gone so smoothly and having noted a nest of webbing on a tree set back from the ledge about chest-height--an ideal placement--I decided to go with the rappel.
I showed her the setup and showed her how she could weight test everything while still being attached to the anchor.
I then rapped down to be in place to give her a fire-man's belay. On the way down I noted a short free hanging section that made me wonder how she would handle it.
She set herself up and slowly proceeded down. Coming to the free hanging section, "what do I do now?!"
"Continue on babe."
And she did.
We traversed to some chains near the top of the first pitch and repeated the process.
"That was way better than the first one," she commented, having enjoyed that she could keep her feet on the wall.
To cap off the day we headed back over to the guide wall to find Finger Locks open for business. I quickly racked up, climbed and setup a TR.
My gf enjoyed watching a husband and wife couple climbing a thin slabby section to our left. "She was so happy to have made it through the hard part...and they had a little celebration on top," she told me once I got down.
Then she started up the slabby hand to finger crack that is Finger Locks or Cedar Box (5.5)
I've seen the crux, a short vertical section with a thank-god tree on top, shut several of my newbie friends down. But not my gf. She pulled right through it, comitting to the moves right off the bat.
"That was a fun one! Not scary at all," she said.
I climbed it once more to clean our anchor. At the tope I met the couple who had been on the route to our left. I mentioned how I was bringing my gf out for the first time.
"Well, did you see that thread on RC.com?" the gentleman asked me.
"Yup, that was me," I chuckled.
We chatted about some of your replies, the Shockley's incident, in particular, which I hadn't yet read.
The couple let me rap down on their rope, ending an excellent day at the Gunks.
I just got a text from my gf that she's been bragging to her friends at work about our Sunday, and has been receiving some props! She also said that the "craving is set."
In retrospect, I may have pushed her a little hard. Her work makes her exceptionally good at handling stressful situations without showing signs. Not seeing signs of stress, I kept on pushing.
On the other hand, she owned it.
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