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boulderingmadman
Sep 15, 2002, 10:16 PM
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DO NOT USE A GRI GRI FOR BELAYING A LEADER!!!
the factors produced in a leader fall can get too high for a gri gri's "auto-locking device" to work. use it for toproping and belaying a second all you want, but i DO NOT recommend belaying a leader with a gri gri. on top of the fall factors, it causes complacency, and the LAST thing you want is a lazy, complacent belayer...
the new trango b52 is GREAT!! i also have fallen in love with the trango JAWS and the DMM bug over the years. these are "standard" belay devices, though the b52 can be used as an auto-locking device when belaying a second.
above all else, remember to pay attention. ANY belay device(figure 8 not included as it is a RAP device, not a belay device) can and will work when properly used. DO NOT take the advice of someone not proficcient when learning to belay. learn using an ATC(or similar device) and learn proper technique. NEVER rely on an "auto locking device" to stop a fall. "auto-locking" can, does, and WILL fail. period.
hey billcoe--you should learn about devices before using them. the b52 is designed for thin diameter ropes. 10.5 MAY work smoothly. i recommend 10.2 or thinner for use with the b52 as it is designed for high-end redpointing of difficult sport routes. i used the b52 with a 9.5 and it was smooth like butter...
[ This Message was edited by: boulderingmadman on 2002-09-15 15:20 ]
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djnibs
Sep 15, 2002, 11:38 PM
Post #27 of 92
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heyo, just thought i would let everyone who cares know:
1)First and for most, i learned how to belay using an 8, i don't trust it, so not for me.
2)I bought an SBGII and love it.
3)thats all that matters,
thanks everyone. chow
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jt512
Sep 16, 2002, 7:29 PM
Post #28 of 92
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Quote:
DO NOT USE A GRI GRI FOR BELAYING A LEADER!!!
the factors produced in a leader fall can get too high for a gri gri's "auto-locking device" to work.
On what planet do you climb? Here on earth, we belay leaders all the time with gri-gris, and they do not fail when the force is high. On the contrary, the higher the force, the more reliably they lock up. It's the slow slides down low-angle slabs you have to worry about.
Quote:
...but i DO NOT recommend belaying a leader with a gri gri.
Is there some reason we should care what you recommend?
Quote:
hey billcoe--you should learn about devices before using them.
And you, boulderingmadman, should learn about them before posting.
-Jay
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orbizy
Sep 18, 2002, 9:22 PM
Post #29 of 92
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According to my newly purchased bible, "Freedom of the Hills", when a figure 8 is rigged in "sport mode" then the bight of rope is going through the large hole and down through your locking 'biner (not down and around the little hole). The only safe way to belay is the use an 8 in aperture configuration (bight of rope going through small hole and around a locking 'biner). Aperture mode is simply using the small hole of an 8 as a belay plate. Never use sport mode for anything, not even rappelling.
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mcfoley
Sep 18, 2002, 9:41 PM
Post #30 of 92
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i think grigri's are great.
The criticisms I've heard are that they create "LAZY" belayers...and yes they do...
They also take "some" getting used to...
Out in JT I watched a someone "DROP" a partner twice her size about 30 feet while lowering on a TR... she finally let go of the "handle" when we SCREAMED AT HER TO LET GO OF THE HANDLE (the guy was about 10 feet off the deck, then)
why, partly because she hadn't been properly instructed on what the "handle" was for( gas petal) but also because I watched her blab away (NO BRAKE HAND) for about 10 minutes as she lazily "belayed".
Furthermore, I use an atc to belay and usually do long rap's with an 8. I HATE belaying with my 8(small).
I carry it as a b/u device mostly.
The gri gri also "takes away" some of the systems overall, ability to absorb the force on a fall, which puts some more force on the pro!!!
mike
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thejm
Sep 18, 2002, 9:54 PM
Post #31 of 92
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Ok, about the reverso, i'm actually thinking about buying one too, but in my opinion I would only use it for belaying a second because is more easy with it and also has a auto-lock feature.
For things like rappeling and belaying I will continue with my atc
[ Este Mensaje fue editado por: thejm el 2002-09-18 15:12 ]
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fishypete
Sep 20, 2002, 10:45 AM
Post #33 of 92
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Teenage trolls.
Yawn.
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mcfoley
Sep 20, 2002, 2:00 PM
Post #34 of 92
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KEEP IT SIMPLE!!! IF YOU ALREADY HAVE AN ATC...DO YOU NEED A REVERSO OR GRI GRI ($75)???. YOU CAN'T "REALLY" RAP WITH A GRI GRI, I'LL ADMIT REVERSO'S ARE PRETTY COOL.
I MIGHT BUY ONE, BUT ID RATHER PUT $$$ INTO MORE PRO!!!
mf
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tenn_dawg
Sep 20, 2002, 2:49 PM
Post #35 of 92
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Jesus Christ.
AngryEnchilada, you're doing something really STUPID and DANGEROUS.
Not just that, but you come on here and advertise it to all of the new climbers who may stumble across your post, that that's an acceptable thing to do.
I mean damn man, are you seriously wrapping a rope around a single non-locking bent gate "Beener" and using that as a belay?
Never mind trying to LEARN about climbing before you go out and jump on the rock. There's the Munter hitch, belay plates, ATC's, Gri-Gri's, Figure 8's, even a damn caving desender will work to belay someone. But nevermind that, I'm sure what you are doing is working fine.
I'll be looking for your name in the newspaper.
Travis
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boulderingmadman
Sep 20, 2002, 11:34 PM
Post #36 of 92
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jt512--
do some research through older (maybe 2 years?) climbing magazines. in one of them(not sure which one, and i dont have them in front of me) youll find a product review of the gri gri done in an independent study.
what was found is that gri gris do IN FACT increase the load put onto gear that is placed as part of belay system and DO IN FACT cause more frequent failures in belay systems when belaying a leader BECAUSE of the higher fall factors that are transmitted to the gear throughout the system, rather than to the device and the belayer, as with an ATC or figure eight.
the device itself may not fail. but transmitting higher fall factors to the gear that is placed in the rock during a leader fall is an unneccessary risk that can be eliminated by using an ATC or NON-autolocking device in place of the gri gri when belaying a leader...
dont get so f---ing snippety...i may have to spank you again...
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earsen
Sep 21, 2002, 7:46 AM
Post #37 of 92
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You sissy's all use belays? Geez, I thought any0one who's anyone bypassed ropes and belayers nowadays.
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theangryenchilada
Sep 21, 2002, 8:07 AM
Post #38 of 92
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youll see my name in the news paper when i climb the most extremest tallest hardest mountain rock climb in the world. then ill rappel down the side faster than anyone ever.
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boulderingmadman
Sep 21, 2002, 5:30 PM
Post #39 of 92
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it WILL be the fastest rappel if you use the same techniques you do for belaying...you dolt
you should tell us all you real name so we remember to NEVER climb with you...
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djnibs
Sep 23, 2002, 12:46 AM
Post #40 of 92
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thats sad, why would anyone post anything that stupid in the beginners forum???? are you trying to get people killed????? i just hope there isn't people who will acutaly do somthing that stupid!!!!!!! come on, have some common sense here!!!!!
on a different note, i have finally actually seen someone use an 8 to belay. and after talking with them, and them showing me how, i would use it. its just as safe as anything. there is a lot more friction in it than in a grigr. i would imagine its a lot smoother for belaying. ne ways, thanks all, climb on.
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freudian
Sep 23, 2002, 11:30 PM
Post #41 of 92
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I started climbing at a college climbing wall in 1999.
I was taught to use the Petzl GriGri and told it was idiot-proof.
** The gri-gri is good for top-roping inside & outside and setting routes inside.
** The gri-gri is NOT idiot-proof. Someone tries to lower you and doesn't realize that when you use that brake release handle, if you pull too hard on it, you can drop your climber pretty fast. I've had it happen to me.
** I prefer to use an ATC for belaying. You can belay a leader or a top-roped climber. It is easy to take and give slack to the climber. The GriGri is NOT easy to give slack to the leader. A belayer on GriGri can get slack in his role as life-guardian for the climber, cause he/she thinks that no matter what, the climber is safe if they fall... and leave to much slack or just not watch the climber. ALWAYS watch your climber.
Figure-8's are not very good device to belay with, since the ATC is available. Figure-8's are for nice smooth-fast rappelling.
ATC's are for nice smooth-fast and safe belaying.
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billcoe_
Sep 28, 2002, 3:25 AM
Post #42 of 92
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boulderingmadman, you are so ignorant to say this to me: "hey billcoe--you should learn about devices before using them. the b52 is designed for thin diameter ropes."
You are wrong, dummy.
As the B-52 just came out last August, and the first folks to report about them on this site generally thought it rad and bad, I checked out the Trango site and saw no mention that you better be a world class weightlifter to try and crank the 11mm ropes through, should you be so ignorant as to attempt to climb with this device and an 11mm rope. I challenge you to find any info on the Trango B-52 today that says what you say above. ANY, other than your misguided and incorrect post. So let me just say you can attack me and say I should have researched this better but you are the ignorant person here. Go do your own research. Nahh: I will save you the trouble.
This is what the Trango site says and it's quoted verbatum: Notice that this qoute makes you 100 percent wrong. "The rockered bottom of the B-52™ allows you to stop falls with solid authority, regardless of what rope diameter you’re using."
I highly suggest you e-mail them and tell them they are stupid for even suggesting such a thing, and that they should correct their own literature that says you cannot do this with an 11mm rope. And this is still posted on the site after I clearly e-mailed and labeled the numerous flaws to the Trango folks. Check it out yourself http://www.trango.com/splash.cfm
I refuse to use the device. 1 side is thick, and one is thin. If I was always rapping in a slow unhurried manner, maybe I could always trust myself to pay attention to not running the bight through this the wrong way, but it's too much work to have to remember this little feature to be safe. I feel there will be deaths with this POS as it ages. Aluminum work hardens with banging into the rocks, there is not enough material (IMO) on the thin side if you don't get it right. I have asked Trango what the strength rating is if loaded improperly but they have not answered. I have rapped with it backwards just to watch it, and it does fine as it's new. If it is you sir, that this failure occurs to in the future, may I just say now "I told ya so", so at least I can say it while you are still alive. But hey, if you want to climb with what is obviously very poorly designed gear, be my guest.
You and I agree on the DMM Bug, I just tried one out in the climbing store last week and it looks fantastic, like it has all the benefits and none of the negatives of an ATC. A superior design IMO.
BTW: you should know better than to argue with JT as he right statistically real close to 100 percent of the time, which if I may comment on, is at least 60 percent better than yourself if I have my math correct, but feel free to check that number as it may in fact be drastically higher.
Good day eh?
Bill
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boulderingmadman
Sep 28, 2002, 7:20 PM
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youre a funny dude, billcoe...
you go through all that trouble just to try and piss me off?? you need to try a few new things, like finding a life...
and for the record, when was the last time an ADVERTISEMENT directed you to the technical aspects of any piece of gear? any advertisement is designed to make you, the consumer, feel like the porduct being advertised is the best possible product available on the market. so why then, would trango put in its ads that the b52 is best when used with thin diameter ropes?? thats what common sense and gear ratings are for...read a few sometime, youll learn something...its along the same lines of DMM not advertising that the bug tends to snare on an 11mm rope as well. or maybe that BD never advertised that the figure eight has a tendency to put kinks in the rope. or maybe that a belay plate, as thin as it is, really shouldnt be used for rappelling as it absorbs too much heat, weakening the metal...
and, as a climber, i find it REALLY disturbing that you "dont have time" to dicker around with a device and "get it right". remind me to never climb with you. if its too much work for you to check and make sure your rappell is set up properly, i CERTAINLY wouldnt let you lead ME up anything. I can see it now..."aww, this crack is a lil too wide for that piece of gear, but i havent got time to fool around and find the right piece. ill just use that one..." sounds like an epic waiting to happen.
and, if jt hasnt gotten back to me about my earlier post, i can only assume its because he found what he was looking for. statistically, i couldnt give a s--- how often jt is right or wrong. nor could i give a s--- about your feelings. i attacked no one until jt attacked me. as for you, i simply pointed out the error in your judgement...cant blame me for your lack of research skills. when i buy a piece of gear, i KNOW what it is to be used for. i know how to use it, and i take the time to get it right.
sounds to me like all of your crying is based on your lack of interest in safety and equipment...
so before you start spouting off at the mouth again, read something about the gear that wasnt written with the intention of getting you to buy it. read a gear review. read independant surveys and studies. and for f---s sake, DONT take the word of the maker as factual and true. they are trying to SELL you something. the gear reviews and independant studies have nothing to gain OR lose when they write their reports, unlike the manufacturer...
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airscape
Sep 28, 2002, 10:22 PM
Post #44 of 92
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I don't climb when people want to belay me with an 8.
I have had 1 very bad experience, and one not so bad experience being belayed with an 8.
My opinion is too few people know how to belay an 8 properly, unless it comes to topropeing.
I only belay with a gri gri, the best rope feed off any device i have tried,
And once I stood on a precarious spot while belaying and i slipped just as my partner came off the wall, I woulda never stopped the fall if I was using an 8.
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boulderpaul
Sep 29, 2002, 6:38 PM
Post #45 of 92
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yeah I climb V10...
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iridesantacruz
Sep 30, 2002, 12:30 AM
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well, when i went to buy one a climber of over 10 years told me its not a good thing, though it is very safe, it twists the rope
climb on
chris
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climbingchick
Sep 30, 2002, 12:36 AM
Post #47 of 92
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When you say 8, and gri gri what do you mean exactly? Sorry if this is a dumb question.
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curt
Sep 30, 2002, 2:27 AM
Post #48 of 92
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Well, this is certainly an interesting thread. A few inputs from an old fart (me.)
Many climbers have caught large numbers of "wailer" lead falls using only a waist belay--and this is completely safe. Many of these leaders were also only tied directly into the rope around their waist, or were wearing swami belts, which is a piece of webbing put around your waist a few times and then tied with a water knot. This is also completely safe.
I have personally used Sticht plates (with and without springs), waist belays, figure 8s, ATCs, Munter hitches, Gri-Gris and probably a few other devices that I can't recall. There are times where each of these methods could be the best choice.
I guess what I am trying to convey to the readers here is that most belaying issues do not relate to the gear used. Most problems are the result of belayers not knowing how to properly belay (with whatever they are using) or knowing what type of belay would be best for a particular situation.
Fortunately, enough climbing experience will usuall correct these deficiencies.
Curt
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djnibs
Sep 30, 2002, 11:48 PM
Post #49 of 92
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Heyo. once again, i post to my own thread, but hey, who cares. lol.
after reading all of the posts here, i have gathered that it doesn't matter what you use to belay, as long as you know the proper way, its all good. also, i have come to the conclusion that i may, or may not, depending on who i am belayin, use an 8. i now own an SBGII by Omega, and i love it. the only reason i got it cuz there was no ATC's. but yes, be safe and have fun. the most important things about climbing. climb on!!!
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reborne
Jan 29, 2003, 9:35 PM
Post #50 of 92
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im sorry i dint have the patience to read much past the first page so i apologize if this was already said the large majority of gym accidents right now are from revers threaded grigris if you reverse thread it it is worthless so its NOT "idiot proof" or at least not retard proof the good thing about it is if you have one you only need one assender or prusik to aid sections when following
oh and climberchick 8's and gri gri's are belay devices that differ from the atc's your probly used to the 8 is a wacky thing youve probly seen in pictures its basically a metal 8 and the gri gri is a auto locking belay device invented by petzle not sure how long ago
[ This Message was edited by: reborne on 2003-01-29 13:40 ]
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