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microbarn
Jul 8, 2007, 6:48 PM
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Climbers with experience can have knowledge and be wonderful mentors and teachers. However, the experienced climber has a tendency to validate their position with only experience, and this can make for very poor mentors or teachers. Therefore, a climber with experience can be a great climber, partner, and mentor, but an experienced climber can suck it. (Please notice the difference in wording. I will be using these two phrases for distinct meanings through the rest of the post.)
As an example, here is a climber with experience:
summerprophet wrote: Summerprophet: Happy to be considered a NOOB after 17 years of climbing, including grade V walls, 20k' peaks and 32 first ascents.
This climber with experience voices a willingness to learn, but has probably already seen, used, and evaluated many systems.
If you have read more then a hand full of threads, I am sure you have seen the experienced climbers saying things like the following
In reply to: I have been climbing for 17 years. So, I am more correct.
It is possible the experienced climber is holding a correct position, but their position is never correct strictly because of experience.
Failures occur independent of how many years climbing or how many hard climbs you sent. A climber with experience realizes this, and the reasoning espoused in their arguments can be evaluated on its own merit.
An example of where an experienced climber could be correct is choosing one particular anchor setup over another. It may indeed be the best choice, but the reasons are along the lines of strength, redundancy, efficiency, etc. The reasons for the correct anchor set up are not 17 years of experience.
Experienced climbers believe they know all about a certain aspect of climbing. Of course, we never know everything. An experienced climber may lack diligence in observing knowledge gaps. As an example, experienced climbers might not understand or properly explain something as common as a zipper effect. Left unquestioned, a new climber may falsely understand the zipper effect too. In another situation, an experienced climber might cover gaps in their knowledge by applying what works from one area to another area. (As the case may be with knots in webbing versus standard rope.)
Myths are passed from one experienced climber to another as facts. Examples of this typically revolve around the unknown, and the myths usually involve being overly cautious. I can't blame someone for being overly cautious, but experienced climbers forget that the original decision was made only out of fear of the unknown. Examples of experienced climber fears can include microfractures, static ropes, dirty ropes, EDK, and double bowlines. Climbers with experience can also have these fears, but climbers with experience are willing to reevaluate these fears with sufficient evidence to the contrary. Climbers with experience are justified in maintaining precautionary measures, and they are justified in placing extraordinary criticism on the evidence presented. Not every fear is unfounded.
Another common error of experienced climbers is the expression of one single unrounded point of view on things such as ethics and risk acceptance. Certainly, every climber has a right to voice their point of view, but it is shallow to believe other shades of grey on the same topic are unfounded. Climbers with experience can understand that all experiences are different, and sometimes different situations demand different resolutions.
A quote I found that seems to touch on some of the same points was written by rgold.
rgold wrote: If any one thing has emerged from the recent rounds of tests and theoretical discussions, it is that the "people who have actually used" a system, including very experienced ones, do not, in general, know anything about how it will perform such tasks as equalization and often make assumptions that are incorrect. Some of these assumptions can become part of the community's received "wisdom" and persist for decades.
As much as I hate experienced climbers, I think we are all an experienced climber at times, but sometimes we can catch ourselves, stop, and perhaps reform our position. What other signs of experienced climbers do you notice? What myths have you found yourself reevaluating lately? What can we look for to stop ourselves from being the experienced climber?
editted to exclude one reference
(This post was edited by microbarn on Jul 8, 2007, 7:39 PM)
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caughtinside
Jul 8, 2007, 7:02 PM
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Boy, Jay really rattled you, didn't he?
Anyway, I see your point. But the climber with 17 years experience generally speaking has a much stronger basis for opinion than someone with 2 years experience.
Clearly, they can still be wrong, and methods, gear, techniques have improved. But, climbers tend to be the independent types, and a 17 year experience knowledge base is a pretty reliable source, IMO. I'd take it most of the time over most of the prattle on this website.
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majid_sabet
Jul 8, 2007, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: As much as I hate experienced climbers, I think we are all an experienced climber at times,
You are my expert climber and I will not allow Jay to mentally abuse my hero.
Jay
stop been a jerk and leave this kid alone
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medicus
Jul 8, 2007, 7:37 PM
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I'm getting tired of so much bickering associated with n00b/experienced. It's too old to even laugh at anymore. It's just how rc.com is. If you don't like someone, don't reply to them. Just ignore their post and move on with life.
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majid_sabet
Jul 8, 2007, 7:40 PM
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microbarn wrote: caughtinside wrote: Boy, Jay really rattled you, didn't he?  Actually, it was an experience with a local climber that bothered me the most. However, Jay has been an ass on more then one occasion. He also has posted several times referencing the same phenomena.
who is this dude
leee eee mee take care offff himm boooosss
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medicus
Jul 8, 2007, 7:40 PM
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Lol, well if it were someone face to face, just punch them in the face and then move on 
(This post was edited by medicus on Jul 8, 2007, 7:41 PM)
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summitseeker
Jul 8, 2007, 10:09 PM
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Well, I must reply: when you use the term "experienced climbers" can suck it.... as a group, then you have done an equal wrong as someone dissing "noobs" A good guy is a good guy and an ass hole is an ass hole . experienced or new!!!!! That being said, I have found a mathematical correlation between the number of years a person has been climbing and their ability to be an "ass hole"
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tradrenn
Jul 8, 2007, 11:18 PM
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microbarn wrote: caughtinside wrote: Boy, Jay really rattled you, didn't he? Actually, it was an experience with a local climber that bothered me the most. However, Jay has been an ass on more then one occasion. He also has posted several times referencing the same phenomena.
The way you should look at the issue is:
What did I do to deserve such a reply ?
Is there something I'm missing here ?
Do I need to learn more ?
etc.
The way I see it guys like Jay are needed on this site, someone has to give younger climber shiet for all of their wrong doing/thinking to make them better/safer climbers in the long run.
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el_layclimber
Jul 8, 2007, 11:37 PM
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I think that problems arise when people refuse to recognize that there is more than one way of doing things. There will always be disagreements about safety, but some are better at respectful and constructive disagreement than others.
I think the other problem that "experience" breeds is contempt for people who climb in another style; don't climb as hard; or have interests and talents outside of climbing that they also want to share.
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yogaclimber
Jul 8, 2007, 11:43 PM
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In reply to: The way I see it guys like Jay are needed on this site, someone has to give younger climber shiet for all of their wrong doing/thinking to make them better/safer climbers in the long run. True,but some poeple like to be jerks no matter what,some arent here to help others.just becasue they have exp doesn't man he's nice person.
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jakedatc
Jul 8, 2007, 11:54 PM
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And sometimes things being said in a blunt Jay or Curt sort of way MIGHT hit home a bit harder.. Not everything has to be sugar coated.
would you rather someone see your leg behind the rope and go "excuse me, you should probably be aware of the rope trailing behind your leg that could possibly flip you upside down in a fall" or "ROPE BEHIND YOUR LEG!"
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summerprophet
Jul 8, 2007, 11:57 PM
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Holy crap I got Quoted.
An interesting note regarding the "I got 17 years of experience so crap it up your ass attitude"
Statistically (although from 1994) the chances of an Experienced climber dying or being seriously injured is higher than that of a beginner. The Highest risk group of all? The intermediate.
The study went on to hypothesise that the new climber has enough sense and fear to triple check everything, and is methodical about ensuring partners check each other ect.
The experienced climber has done the routine so many times that is automated. Experienced climbers tend to botch the double checks and assume that their partner is without error.
The intermediate climber has all the bad habits of the experienced climber and the lack of skill that comes with time. This leads to the highest risk rate.
So next time Jay strikes at you with his loads of experience, just look at your watch and realize, statistically his time will come before yours.
(Of course on another post, Jay mentioned that he has NEVER had a close call climbing, so maybe he is perfect..... or a lying bastard)
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quiteatingmysteak
Jul 9, 2007, 12:11 AM
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Interesting read, and a good point as well. I think there are a lot of people out there a little too obsessed with eGo's to have good discussions, and I'm sure I have done the same as well. True experience and talent speaks for itself, if we dont already know who you are, don't bother telling us, we will find out if you dont suck or not :)
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mlcrisis
Jul 9, 2007, 1:14 AM
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...but will they?
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notapplicable
Jul 9, 2007, 2:10 AM
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summerprophet wrote: (Of course on another post, Jay mentioned that he has NEVER had a close call climbing, so maybe he is perfect..... or a lying bastard)
I think generally speaking Jay knows his stuff but IMO he comes off as having forgotten that this is not "sportclimbing.com" and that the techniques and mindsets that serve a sport climber well are not always applicable on gear and in the mountains.
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billcoe_
Jul 9, 2007, 2:26 AM
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Microbarn: thanks for the reminder that we all must be continually evaluating and re-evaluating both saftey and ethics, and not get stuck in a rut.
Today, I was up in the wilderness, alone, high on the rock, getting the rope I got stuck yesterday....I'm tying my 2 ropes together with my usual overhand knot - ones a Beal Joker 9.1 the other is a phat 11mil...I'm looking at the 4" diameter tree which has never seen a soul rap on it...
and I evaluated, then re-evaluated.
Untied the EDK, tied the double fishermans and rapped.
Tree held.
Thanks for the reminder!
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jt512
Jul 9, 2007, 2:38 AM
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summerprophet wrote: (Of course on another post, Jay mentioned that he has NEVER had a close call climbing, so maybe he is perfect..... or a lying bastard)
No, I've had close calls. What I meant in the other thread (if it's the one I think you're referring to) is that I have never made the rappelling error that that gut had made.
Jay
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