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andypro
Jul 15, 2007, 4:12 PM
Post #1 of 26
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Registered: Aug 23, 2003
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After reading Angrys journal and going into a fit of jelous rage, I started getting ready for winter. I only have 5 months left...Theres no time to waste.
So after I got bored going through things I wont use until I forget about them, I started shopping for things I dont need and probably wont buy....namely soft goods like shells, packs, pants, etc...
Now, am I all alone here in wanting to keep things simple and uncluttered? I found bibs with belt loops, 5 pockets, 10 different kinds of zippers, rings, clips, laces, coffee makers, and a partridge in a pear tree. And no, they weren't "convertible" bibs, so WTF with the belt loops??
Jackets are even worse. 50,000 feet of shock cord with 20 of those springy clampy things to adjust everything under the sun, 40 pockets, key clips, detachable hoods at 4 levels more zippers than you can shake a stick at.
Then theres packs. Oh..my horse for an uncluttered pack. The ones touting being simple and clean are still covered in crap. buckles and clips and cords and pouches and zippers and tie downs and straps...
Why doesn't anyone want simple, clean soft goods? Am I all alone here?
Give me a bib with a single pocket for documents, single simple buckles to adjust the suspenders, and reinforced seat and knees. I don't even know if I care about full side zips. Though I guess they would be nice, but not often for what I do.
Give me an anorak with a single pocket in front to put my mitts and an extra hat in. Maybe some munchies. Make the pocket high enough that it wont get stuck in my hipbelt. Give me a single cord to adjust the volume of my hood that will fit over my helmet. maybe a single cord at the waist area to keep the spindrift out.
I want a pack that has nothing on the outside except two oldschool ice axe loops. Everything else goes inside. The inside that DOESN'T have daisy chains and MP3 pockets and organizers and widgits and whatsits. I want a single hole in the top to put a bladder tube through. I'm already wearing stuff that's going to keep the airflow away from my back, so I dont need special thermoformed backpading with ridges and bumps and aerodynamic wings.
I still have an old Lowe Backpacker 60 that I use every time because it's as close as I can get to that perfect pack. It's also 15 years old and is still going strong.
Form no longer follows function. I cant blame the gear manufacturers for this, because it's the market that drives the products. People are more likely to buy the items with the most crap all over them, because this is perceived as the most bang for the buck. It's just aggrivating that those of us who want something without the fluff have to either settle, or make our own gear.
--Andy P
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maldaly
Jul 15, 2007, 5:53 PM
Post #2 of 26
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Registered: Oct 31, 2002
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Andy,
I feel your pain. The shells from Patagonia and Arc'teryx generally seem to be the cleanest. Cloudveil may have something worth checking out, too. I haven't been watching the pack market too closely but I always liked the packs from Wild Things. They do a good job of limiting the foofaraw to only what's useful. Bibs? Haven't looked at this for decades but my impression is that most manufacturers have ignored this category. Not totally sure however. Maybe shop in the used stores?
Mal
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microbarn
Jul 15, 2007, 6:29 PM
Post #3 of 26
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Registered: May 12, 2004
Posts: 5920
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I have heard good things about http://beyondfleece.com. It seems everything is customizable from them.
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salamanizer
Jul 15, 2007, 7:18 PM
Post #4 of 26
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Registered: Jul 3, 2004
Posts: 879
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Dude, I feel ya.
However the exact opposite seems to be happening to the pants industry. Where once you could buy a pair of (scholler or softshell etc...) pants that had a useful cargo pocket and a velcro ancle closure to keep snow and various want nots out...... no more.
Now all you get is some strait legged, fashionable POS. Tell me, what good are hip pockets and ass pockets when you're wearing a harness? Ooh, and belt loops, who the hell wants to wear a belt under a harness all day. Talk about kidney failure.
There is hope though, you just have to stay away from the highly commercial companies. Like anything you might find at REI for example.
Try searching for companies like
Mont-belle
Beyond Fleece
Feathered friends
Cold Cold World
Outdoor Research
Stevensons etc...
Their still making functionable stuff instead of fashionable. Theirs quite a few others out there but I can't think of them off the top of my head.
Another thing you may want to try is to buy from a European company. Everyone knows the Europeans have never even heard of fashion, so all they have is function. Try http://Barrabes.com , they have lots of good stuff made by companies that you probably have never heard of. Most of their stuff is made by Euro's too, instead of our normal China or Korean made stuff.
But no time to waste dude, three months before winter that stuff comes into demand and prices get bumped up. Hurry Hurry Hurry...
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creemore
Jul 15, 2007, 9:04 PM
Post #5 of 26
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Registered: Jan 22, 2003
Posts: 61
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It's kinda classic.
Core pieces designed for the core user. Not enough core users and they all know were cheap bastards that make our stuff last as long as possible (your 15 year old pack for example).
Did you see the ads for the new gum that last forever and makes the company stop production???
They sure don't want that 
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ClusterFock
Jul 16, 2007, 5:26 AM
Post #6 of 26
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Registered: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 95
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Now that was a good read.
Brightened up my day.
Two days ago I just bought:
1 pair gortex pants, 1 gortex jacket, a new down jacket and a nice 75L hyrbid pack.
Not that it bothers me too much, but yeah there is a lot of shit and pockets and loops and clips and t'ings you don't need
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ithaca_ice
Jul 16, 2007, 5:41 AM
Post #7 of 26
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Registered: Feb 9, 2006
Posts: 10
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2005 marmot skylight jacket
EMS Men's Zoner Pants
simple...
Go-lite belay parka from thrift store ($5.00)
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crackers
Jul 18, 2007, 5:15 PM
Post #8 of 26
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Registered: Apr 20, 2005
Posts: 416
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andypro wrote: Then theres packs. Oh..my horse for an uncluttered pack. The ones touting being simple and clean are still covered in crap. buckles and clips and cords and pouches and zippers and tie downs and straps...
Andy, may i humbly suggest that you check out my packs? I can't help you with the traditional ice axe loops as IMHO they just don't work for modern tools, but I think the look is significantly cleaner without them. www.cilogear.com
I feel your pain. And if you feel like visiting brooklyn, i'd be glad to show you the goods...
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brokenankle
Jul 18, 2007, 6:30 PM
Post #9 of 26
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Registered: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 50
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+1 more for Beyondfleece. One of my main motivations for ordering from them (besides custom fit to my stumpy legs) was the fact I could get softshell pants without three pounds of cargo pockets, hipzips, drawstrings, ipod pockets, etc.
As for packs, i fear your best bet is to bust out the Singer and modify.
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dingus
Jul 18, 2007, 6:48 PM
Post #10 of 26
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
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andypro wrote: After reading Angrys journal and going into a fit of jelous rage, I started getting ready for winter. I only have 5 months left...Theres no time to waste. So after I got bored going through things I wont use until I forget about them, I started shopping for things I dont need and probably wont buy....namely soft goods like shells, packs, pants, etc... Now, am I all alone here in wanting to keep things simple and uncluttered? I found bibs with belt loops, 5 pockets, 10 different kinds of zippers, rings, clips, laces, coffee makers, and a partridge in a pear tree. And no, they weren't "convertible" bibs, so WTF with the belt loops??
Dayum Andy with a rant like that you must have been around the block a time or two? Surely you must know of the esteemed John "Light is Right" Bouchard?
http://www.wildthingsgear.com/alpinist_bibs.html
http://www.wildthingsgear.com/alpinist_jacket.html
this last one is a stretch but really, its an alpinist's pack, but one rigged for hauling.
http://www.wildthingsgear.com/andinista.html
I bet if you called them as requested a custom pack to your specs they'd do it... for a price.
Anyway, Chouinard used to make gear like that, first as climbing gear then Patagonia shells. Chic urban warriors didn't go for them... they didn't look techie enough. The folks who buy the bulk of that gear don't use it for climbing, imo.
Anyway, you said it, marketing is what it is. But Wild Things is the closest thing I know of to what you seek.
DMT
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climbinwv
Jul 18, 2007, 7:03 PM
Post #11 of 26
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Registered: May 18, 2007
Posts: 140
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Maybe it's time for a company with a climbing background to begin making climbing clothing for climbers. You guys know what we need (function/fit) and what we don't need (assloads of pockets/zippers/extra crap). It's time for the whole Trango Shambango!!!
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maldaly
Jul 18, 2007, 7:18 PM
Post #12 of 26
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Registered: Oct 31, 2002
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This is one of those things that we lose sleep over. Would love to have a clothing line. Don't hold your breath.
Mal
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climbinwv
Jul 18, 2007, 7:24 PM
Post #13 of 26
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Registered: May 18, 2007
Posts: 140
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I've got about 2-3 years of life left in the 3-4 pairs of pants I rotate depending on the conditions. So no worries, you have a couple years to get it done. Also, I read the story about your accident the other day on Trango's website. My wife and I both found it really inspirational. Looking forward to meeting you next year at NRG Rendesvous. Thanks Mal!!!!
Bryan...
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sspssp
Jul 18, 2007, 7:29 PM
Post #14 of 26
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Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
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brokenankle wrote: +1 more for Beyondfleece. As for packs, i fear your best bet is to bust out the Singer and modify.
I also like Beyondfleece (and its about the same $ as for any name brand). However, I wish there were some more fabric options. (I'm always looking for a durable climbing pant that is pretty windproof but not very heavy--most of the schoeller stuff fails one of the above).
As for packs, McHale makes great custom packs. You do pay for it (more than even name brands).
As far as the OP goes, there is a lot of extra crap, but since any given item is going to be wanted by somebody... I like enough pockets that I can stuff a topo, snack bars, lip balm, headband/hat, kleenex etc. I like being able to put small things away without opening the main part of the pack (guide book, sunglasses, windshirt). I like side zips on heavy pants for venting (same with pit zips on shirts/jackets).
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dingus
Jul 18, 2007, 7:43 PM
Post #15 of 26
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
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You can also go the Angus route... forgo buying top-of-the-line ANYTHING. Buy whatever is on sale and fits, then make do.
But Angus? He does it Ray's Way and cuts off all the extra straps, scribbles out the company logo and generally renders his gear SIMPLIFIED.
So he gets the pack you want, at maybe 90 bucks on clearence from Sierratradingpost.com or something.
He had Ray Jardine's ultralight backpacking book right? He cut off the fucking cover and scribbled out Jardine's name.
That's CORE dude! I'm sure Jardine would be proud of him.
DMT
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reno
Jul 18, 2007, 8:10 PM
Post #16 of 26
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Registered: Oct 30, 2001
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dingus wrote: So he gets the pack you want, at maybe 90 bucks on clearence from Sierratradingpost.com or something.
Speaking of, I just bought a Lowe Alpine pack from STP today..... 60% off (saved $143 or so.)
woot.
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maldaly
Jul 18, 2007, 9:15 PM
Post #17 of 26
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Registered: Oct 31, 2002
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Hey climbinwv, thx for the props. See you next year.
Mal
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Brett1234
Jul 19, 2007, 4:36 AM
Post #18 of 26
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Registered: Feb 6, 2007
Posts: 22
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Andy, I agree totally with the desire for streamlined soft goods. There is a market segment tuned to the ultralight backpacker which you could research. Straps and pockets are largely designed out to save weight. My 100gram Houdini windbreaker and my 740gram(stripped) 45 liter Cilogear pack are classic examples. In fact, take the lid off the Cilogear and it has NO extraneous straps, nice and clean and light; an alpine crag-sack of sorts. Another example are the Montbell belay (down) jackets.
To learn about this entire market segment of light and simple gear head over to backpackinglight.com A lot of that equipment is applicable to the approach/ climb/ alpine climbing.
Also; patagonia.com, cilogear.com, montbell.com
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builttospill
Jul 19, 2007, 4:52 PM
Post #19 of 26
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Registered: Jan 8, 2004
Posts: 814
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While I like Trango goods, there are already a couple of clothing manufacturers and soft-good producers that are run by climbers. Assuming you don't count Patagonia of course.
The esteemed Dingus already mentioned Wild Things. Give them a ring over there in New Hampshire. They're helpful. They discussed making me an overstuffed version of their synthetic belay parka at my behest. I haven't done it yet because it's not winter and I'm poor. But they'll do it. For other soft goods, places like Nunatak USA and Feathered Freinds are perfectly happy to do custom work on sleeping bags, parkas, pants, etc. They might even make you a pair of gloves, but I woudln't know.
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cfnubbler
Jul 19, 2007, 5:13 PM
Post #20 of 26
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Registered: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 628
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Another vote for Wild Things. IMHO, the Ice Sac (http://www.wildthingsgear.com/icesac.html) is the best cragging-3day route pack out there. I've had one for better than 10 years, and still can't kill it.
The tool tubes (sorry, no loops) don't work particularly well for radically curved tools, though, so I upgraded to the spectra Ice Sac (http://www.wildthingsgear.com/specicesac.html), which has a different, simple, clean (and excellent!) tool attachment system that does work perfectly with modern tools.
One beef about the spectra version is the crampon pouch on the outside. It's way too big, though not nearly as big as the picture in that link makes it look! The perfect pack for me would be the old Ice Sac crampon attachment with the Spectra version's tool tubes. Still, both are outstanding packs.
Wild Things clothing is excellent as well. Oh, and John Bouchard founded the company and designed much of the gear, but he's no longer involved with the company. His ex-wife Titoune still runs the show, and the other folks there are all actual climbers. They know whats up.
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ryanb
Jul 19, 2007, 5:39 PM
Post #21 of 26
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Registered: Nov 4, 2004
Posts: 832
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We're fortunate here in Seattle to have a local independent gear shop with a strong philosophy of light is right:
http://www.promountainsports.com/
You may have to call them, their website is not kept particularly updated with what they have in stock but it does have some awesome trip reports, gear reviews and minimalist packing/gear lists like a 7 pound backpacking kit (http://www.promountainsports.com/upk.shtml everything but food and water). They import/stock a lot of simple hard to find items.
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dingus
Jul 19, 2007, 5:44 PM
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Just beware - the vast majority of ultralight back packing gear isn't up to the rigors of toting hardware in a mountain environment much less being worn in an iced up chimney or dumped on the ground with 40 lbs in it.
But I'm guessing yall know that.
DMT
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climbinwv
Jul 19, 2007, 5:58 PM
Post #23 of 26
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Registered: May 18, 2007
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I personally don't think that Trango should start their own brand of clothing. What I would like to see is for them to pair up with an established clothing company to make the stuff Mal knows us climbers need. I'm a huge Mountain Hardware/Patagonia/North Face/Prana fan and one of these companies (or similar company)with the guidance of a guy like Mal and his team would be amazing. I just find Trango stuff to be bomber/simple/bulletproof/functional....and this is what I look for in clothes. A Trango line under a established manufacturer with the guidance/quality assurance of Trango would rock my world!!!!
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kricir
Jul 19, 2007, 6:42 PM
Post #24 of 26
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Registered: Oct 15, 2005
Posts: 434
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I agree completely, finding a good, simple pack is almost impossible these days. I have an old Kelty rig that is literally a bag with a draw string and shoulder straps (perfect) and a Dana Design bomb pack that I had to take a knife to to make useable. I cut off about a pound of useless crap, cut part of an crappy foam pad for a frame and bam! the best alpine pack I’v ever had was born. I have a weird criteria for a climbing pack - I have to be able to turn it inside out. If I can’t, then its too complicated. Bivi gear is another thing I’v considered making / modifying myself. At the Ouray ice fest Steve House gave a presentation on what he takes on huge, multi day alpine climbs. He had a super simple pack (bag with straps) that was custom made for him. And a custom built super light sleeping bag that he himself made using the metolious shop in OR. Even his ice tools where chopped up rigs that can’t be found on any shelf. So even big time pro’s have to make their own gear - seems that the companies they represent should step it up and let the people who actually use their stuff tell them what could be better.
This kind of streamlined, specialized climbing gear would probably not sell that well though, but it seems that a company with a more traditional line up could offer more specialized gear as well, or at least let you custom order it so they don’t have to have huge inventories of one sided sleeping bags.
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andypro
Jul 20, 2007, 10:11 PM
Post #25 of 26
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Registered: Aug 23, 2003
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Thanks for pointing me back to beyondfleece guys! I havn't checked them out in ages because all they didn't really have much last I checked. Wow have they grown.
My rant wasn't so much about light, just plain/no frills. I've tried go-lite gear before and as far as I'm concerned it's garbage. Might be nice for just walking around, but I just about destroyed one of their jackets in 3 days climbing. Not impressed at all (and it wasn't even my jacket! Lotsa explaining there to the owner  )
I'd love to be able to drop for an arcteryx or wild things high end jobby, as it seems they are the ones that have the least useless crap. But my money will be tied up for the next 21 years or so as I've a bun in the oven ...
I never meant that any of the stuff out there wasn't worth having....just that it's just...well..too much. 99.9% of my outdoor climbing endeacors are nothing more than headin up to the niagara escarpment, or down to go ice cragging in zoar valley. I dont need all the extra "features" that only get in the way.
Here's another vote for Mal to set up a partnership with a clothing company  Just give us the guts without the crap! Typical trango....affordable and useful!
--Andy P
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