|
estwing
Oct 1, 2002, 5:14 PM
Post #1 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 344
|
Hi, I am new to trad climbing and have been doing an exhaustive literature review on the subject. In the June issue of Climbing magazine:
http://www.climbing.com/Pages/Techtip_pages/213/techtip213_trad.html
They say that your first pieces should be multi-directional, and that you get this by making opposed placements.
My question is, does anybody do this? Is it a lot of trouble? Would a clove hitch be better than a few wraps of the sling on the upper biner?
Thanks,
Sam
|
|
|
|
|
mountainmonkey
Oct 1, 2002, 5:56 PM
Post #2 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 474
|
Does anybody do it? Yes
Should more people do it? Yes
There are only a few climbs that truely require you to do it - usually ones that traverse to a crack and then go strait up. On some climbs you can get by with back cleaning the first few pieces in the vertical crack till the rope runs mostly strait. Sometimes it is easiest to place an upward cam - best to walk it up against a chockstone/solid rock to prevent it walking further. I think the wrap thing is multi-directional but not completely bomber. The clove hitch method is more time consuming but much more bomber. I the best method I have found is to place one piece for upward/outward pull and one soon after it for downward pull. Use runners where needed. Imagine how small your last piece looks when all the pieces below it fall out.
casey
|
|
|
|
|
chuckd278
Oct 1, 2002, 6:01 PM
Post #3 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2002
Posts: 156
|
How you place your first piece of gear is different for every route. IMHO it is a skill that you have to learn by doing and not reading. I always make sure my first placement is bommer. There is no use in placing gear if it won't hold up unless you need a rope hanger. Some of the areas where I climb require a 20 to 30 runout to the first place to put soild gear. In this case I don't make it multi-directional if the route goes above it in a clear shot. If it will create an upward pull then I will. Save your strength and place good gear when needed not just because the book said you should.
Chuck
[ This Message was edited by: chuckd278 on 2002-10-01 11:04 ]
[ This Message was edited by: chuckd278 on 2002-10-01 12:28 ]
|
|
|
|
|
tradguy
Oct 1, 2002, 6:14 PM
Post #4 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2002
Posts: 526
|
Mountainmonkey is right. Many people don't bother doing it because they either don't want to waste the time, or they just don't think about the potential consequences. I personally ALWAYS used to place a multi-directional at the bottom of climbs when I first started leading. I've admittedly become a little more casual about this in situations when I don't think it would be necessary, but I still do it when the climb looks hairy. The second figure from their web site is set up ok, except that I typically used a clove hitch on the biner on the bottom piece (set for upward pull) and then put a girth hitch on the upper piece (set for downward pull), and made sure the runner between them was nice and tight. I would usually test it then by yanking straight out, and then up, and making sure nothing moved.
|
|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Oct 1, 2002, 6:14 PM
Post #5 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
If I understand your question right, one of the most important reasons for an opposition placement at the bottom of a pitch is to avoid the zipper effect if you pitch.
Always note the direction of pull from your belayer to the first piece - direction of pull to this person/anchor could cause very very bad things to happen, if say the piece if bomber for a 180 degree downward pull, but a 90 degree outward pull (from other end of rope tied to you) might just pull that nut right off with no problem.
|
|
|
|
|
transse
Oct 1, 2002, 6:35 PM
Post #6 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 10, 2002
Posts: 67
|
As said before... I think a multidirectional first placement is good to have, but not always a necessity. Just remember if none of your lower pieces can take outward pull, in a fall they can pull out. The top piece may stay, but it can add huge distances to your fall. This is especially true on zig-zagging routes. Just something to think about....
Jake
|
|
|
|
|
boulderingmadman
Oct 1, 2002, 6:57 PM
Post #7 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 14, 2002
Posts: 448
|
when i start a trad lead, not only do i set up a "zipper" piece(for upward/outward pull to prevent a zipper effect on the gear), i also build an anchor for my belayer...even right off the ground. this prevents my belayer from being slammed upwards and ripping gear, or possibly dropping me, in the event of a runout fall.
i climb most of my trad stuff in tuolomne meadows, and most of the routes i have climbed require a bit of scrambling on slabs to get to the base of the route. so im pretty conscious of my initial anchor and firts piece to prevent any unnecessar risks to myself and my belayer.
i was taught that redundancy is your best weapon against failure. i dont play the bullshit "i havent got time". youve ALWAYS got time...or youll soon find yourself truly out of time...ie: SPLAT!!
if i build a bomber anchor with 3 pieces and i have another that will fit perfectly...why not place it? im a firm believer in the philosophy of "its better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." this has prevented several could-be epics for me and my friends...
|
|
|
|
|
micronut
Oct 1, 2002, 7:20 PM
Post #8 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 1760
|
I agree with timpanogos, the rope direction from the belay to the piece dictates what rig needs to be placed. And yeah, anchor the belayer if there is any doubt.
|
|
|
|
|
tradguy
Oct 1, 2002, 7:28 PM
Post #9 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2002
Posts: 526
|
Just to add, if you can stick a cam in a horizontal for your first piece, you should be good to go without the multi-directional anchor, since a horizontally placed cam is, by nature of its orientation, good for upward, outward, or downward pull.
|
|
|
|
|
mountainmonkey
Oct 1, 2002, 7:40 PM
Post #10 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 474
|
I think it should also be included here that a multidirectional piece might also be necessary higher up on the pitch - traverses, changing crack systems, roofs, etc. If below the piece that catches you a piece or two pops it could add significant distance to you fall or if the piece itself eventually fails you will be in for a long ride. Pay attention above slabs and ledges. Or in a traverse, pay attention to dihedrals and pendulms.
Some techniques (hint hint this one) are learned best from feedback and not from trial and error. When climbing, look down and ask your self 'what happens when I fall and the rope goes tight'. Also, ask your partner 'what did you think of my pro?'.
casey
|
|
|
|
|
estwing
Oct 1, 2002, 7:55 PM
Post #11 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 344
|
Thanks for all the great responces, very helpfull.
Have a nice day,
Sam
|
|
|
|
|
boulderingmadman
Oct 1, 2002, 7:57 PM
Post #12 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 14, 2002
Posts: 448
|
i think another good point to bring up, since traversing has been mentioned so many times, is to ALWAYS protect your second on a traverse.
alot of "inexperienced"(read sarcastically, as im not that experienced myself) climbers that ive seen forget that traversing is like leading both times. no matter if you lead or second, the falls can be long if gear pulls or is runout. I say, sew it up, on a traverse. protect the second as if it were yourself, for the safety of the team.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Oct 1, 2002, 8:11 PM
Post #13 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
I place mainly stoppers when climbing, butI am getting into the habbit of placing a cam as my first piece as it is, in most cases, multidirectional. I have fallen high up on climbs to have the first stopper pull due to the direction of pull on that piece.
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Oct 1, 2002, 9:17 PM
Post #14 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
I second what rrradam said, cams, placed in a vertical or horizontal crack, are usually multi-directional.
As with all hard and fast rules, there are always exceptions. The route and the potentially forces on the piece should be your guide.
If you say "always", what are you going to do when you're 20 feet up and all you can find is some shallow crappy RP. Sometimes you have to place pieces just to protect a mover or two, because that's all they're good for and that's all you got.
Of course a multi directional is a good idea, if it's available.
[ This Message was edited by: tradklime on 2002-10-01 14:20 ]
|
|
|
|
|
jamison
Oct 1, 2002, 9:31 PM
Post #15 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 23, 2002
Posts: 106
|
MountainMonkey is right. It is always a good idea no matter the situation. It may or may not be needed, but people make mistakes. Maybe you might think it is not needed, but infact misjudged.
The zipper-effect is the only reason I know for doing it. If your worried about your belayer being pulled up, anchor the belayer as well.
Also, MountainMonkey made a good point that it may be required higher up too. It would suck if you fall on your third piece (30 feet up) and it fails only to find that your second piece was pulled out by tension on the rope. That first piece won't do a lot of good if it is only 10 feet off the ground.
Look for you next placement before moving on. Verify if your current piece needs to be multidirectional.
|
|
|
|
|
darkside
Oct 1, 2002, 9:40 PM
Post #16 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 1687
|
A common placement I make involves scrambling/climbing an initially easy section before placing a single piece that will withstand down/out/up pulls. Sometimes this is a cam as Adam mentioned previous but depending on the type of rock, hexes or nuts will do the same. If a single piece will not be multi-directional then you should place an oppositional piece as mentioned in the first post though.
For traverses the rule of thumb is to always protect AFTER a hard move for the benefit of your second and also before if you wish to protect yourself too.
EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking about climbing/scrambling the first say 6-10ft so your belayer has a chance to be pulled up thereby giving a somewhat dynamic belay rather than be slammed into the rock towards pro placed at eye level. You really have to look at the start of a climb and the base to see if this is appropriate though as it may not be.
[ This Message was edited by: darkside on 2002-10-01 14:47 ]
|
|
|
|
|
hangdoggypound
Oct 1, 2002, 9:44 PM
Post #17 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2002
Posts: 169
|
I don't know if I'm saying anything new...but even on dead vertical cracks I always place a multi directional anchor at the base of the climb. I do this for practice-practice-practice, and for my belayer's sake -- she or he can move back and get into a good position for sight, comfort, etc. Plus, they really don't have to be too far back to make the zipper effect in case I fall or if they are a little late on feeding out enough slack; just for added saftey I place two pieces in opposition at the bottom of the pitch.
While cams are somewhat multi-directional by themselves, as some have just mentioned above, but I'd still rather place 2 pieces in opposition.
(edit for clarity)
[ This Message was edited by: hangdoggypound on 2002-10-01 14:49 ]
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Oct 1, 2002, 10:24 PM
Post #18 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
Great point about the Traverse Grant... I never thought of that, and will do so from now on. Karen is especially afraid of traverses for this reson.
Thanx.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Oct 2, 2002, 12:52 AM
Post #19 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
The first piece should always be multidirectinal because, once a second piece is placed above it, the first piece is pulled upward and outward (or sideways and outward on a traverse). This happens even if the belayer is positioned close to the wall and/or if the frist piece is up high.
Most climbers I know try to place a cam as their first piece. Opposed nuts are an option, but are a bit of a pain. If for some reason you do place a single nut as your first piece, just keep in mind that any pieces between it and the first multidirectional piece could zipper out if you fall.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Oct 2, 2002, 1:26 AM
Post #20 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
Folks here are giving good advice, may I add and flesh it out a little?
Learning what will happen is a process acquired through experience and doing what you are doing here. ie, asking questions. I'd like to congratulate you as you are probably a safe climber already as you are keeping an open mind (like you are). None of us ever know it all, we consider ourselves fortunate if we even know quite a bit of it!!!!
Wandering routes can also rip pieces ala mountainmonkees response. I was trying a first free ascent on a route that a friend and I had FAed on aid. (Turned out being a 3 pitch 5.11d after the moss and loose rock got cleaned off). Fell high up on the crux, talking about 140 feet up. Ripped at least 4 pieces of the perhaps 15 or so I had in. The highest piece held, but the ones that pulled came out randomly. It wasn't a straight up line, and the side pull after I fell pulled them. I could have s--- my pants looking down. I knew I should have runnered the pieces better but didn't have the runners to spare, prefering to us them towards the crux: a thin crack that angled slightly up and right. BTW, the first piece was a cam (good practice if you can always crank in a cam for a directional first piece or 2 if the route goes straight up after the cam, nice dumping the weight too).
Moral of this story is, especially when learning, overprotecting is generally (generally I said) better than running it out. Almost always but I think Chuckd and boulderingmadman already answered you pretty well. Thinking is the best skill for leading, looking ahead and trying to evaluate. Where are the rests, next placements, should I back this one up before I move up as it's a nice stance etc etc.
Practice putting in cams while on the ground (not climbing or anything) and see what happens if you yank it almost straight up. Usually it rotates and holds well. A cam is easier to crank in if available than nuts. Like adam, I love thin cracks and have almost always just tried to crank the nuts so they won't rotate out by getting a great placement.
Welcome and high regards:
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
apollodorus
Oct 2, 2002, 1:48 AM
Post #21 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 2157
|
You can just run the rope though a biner clipped to a sling clipped to the belay anchors. The belay is going to be multi-directional anyway, right?
If you belay off a tree or something back from the wall, you need the multi-directional at the bottom of the pitch.
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Oct 2, 2002, 1:57 AM
Post #22 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
Lots of good stuff here, heck I even learned somethings, but there is one wrong piece of info. Once cam place horizontally is NOT intrinsically multidirectional unless you have tested it to be so. Sometimes, in a shallow crack for example, if you are using truly rigid cams (forged friends come to mind) the leverage will snap that stem like a tooth pick. In addition, if you place it at the junction of two different strata of rock, you have different levels of friction, and since the cam can only push equally on either side, the frictional differential can cause it to rotate an pop out. Long story short, the only way you can say any anchor is multidirectional is to give it a good hard yank in the directions that make it multi. Downside to that? If it blows, if you're not in a good stance, you're going with it. I've learned the hard way. A good option is to do a three piece equalization, but that's two less pieces you could use later on. Maybe set up a belayer anchor, which is a good idea anyway. In any event, exercise good judgement, and if you have to run it out, make sure you can climb it.
The other thing I do is place a multi directional immmediatley before a big change in direction to help molify that whole zipper thing. So if I'm climbing a crack that stair-steps at some point, I do multi-piece before and after the stair.
[ This Message was edited by: petsfed on 2002-10-01 19:51 ]
|
|
|
|
|
kman
Oct 2, 2002, 5:45 AM
Post #23 of 23
(4504 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 2561
|
I always start with 2 opposed nuts...if possible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
