|
GabeWalker
Sep 22, 2007, 9:56 PM
Post #1 of 42
(8118 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 9, 2006
Posts: 70
|
Hey everyone. I am wondering if it is possible to upgrade routes? I keep seeing all these routes downgraded, and I wonder if it is the same the other way around. There is a route I climbed outside that says it is a 5.10-, and I think it is at least a 5.11b or 5.11c. I talked to a guy that was there and he said it is definitely stiff for the grade.
|
|
|
|
|
shu
Sep 22, 2007, 10:04 PM
Post #2 of 42
(8106 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2004
Posts: 44
|
It's definitely acceptable, and even encouraged to upgrade routes.
The first step is to notify the guidebook author that he rated the route wrong, and suggest your new rating.
If you are unsure whether it's 11b or 11c, just round up. It makes everyone feel better.
The climbing community is very lucky to have climbing gyms, it is a place where we can go and become familiar with ratings so that we can then go outside and fix all the wildly varying outside ratings.
If that 5.10- feels harder than the blue 5.11b proj you're working in the gym, the rating must be wrong, and it is your duty to the climbing community to upgrade it.
|
|
|
|
|
Carnage
Sep 22, 2007, 10:33 PM
Post #3 of 42
(8093 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2007
Posts: 923
|
just cause its in a gym, it doesnt mean that its right
the gym i climb at rates stiff. i know one of the route setters he has blatantly said that certain routes were rated hard for various reasons.
i think the best way to determine the grade is climb other 11b's and c's in the area, along with some high 10's. see what the other stuff feels like, and make your rating suggestion based about the routes at that crag. consistency at the crag is more important than consistency with other places, especially at the gym.
also, since its rated 10-, i think you'd be better suggesting a 11- or 11 rating on it, since they don't appear to be using the a/b/c/d thing
|
|
|
|
|
a.frosch
Sep 22, 2007, 10:35 PM
Post #4 of 42
(8087 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 69
|
GabeWalker wrote: Hey everyone. I am wondering if it is possible to upgrade routes? I keep seeing all these routes downgraded, and I wonder if it is the same the other way around. There is a route I climbed outside that says it is a 5.10-, and I think it is at least a 5.11b or 5.11c. I talked to a guy that was there and he said it is definitely stiff for the grade.
As someone who claims to have climbed the north face of the eiger and the abruzzi ridge on K2, I wouldn't think you would need to ask this question.
Any luck getting recognition for your badass 11a toprope ascent? I seem to remember a thread to that effect...
|
|
|
|
|
shu
Sep 22, 2007, 11:04 PM
Post #5 of 42
(8067 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2004
Posts: 44
|
Carnage wrote: just cause its in a gym, it doesnt mean that its right
God invented gyms to settle rating disputes!
Seriously though, why should we trust ratings from an uncontrolled environment (outside), when we can compare everything to ratings from a controlled environment (the gym).
In the highest levels of climbing there is public and professional scrutiny regarding grades. Why then should the rest of us be left to govern ourselves and make up our own ratings?
Gyms have professionals who set routes in a controlled environment and who rate climbs as a career. Why would we not trust their judgement? Are YOU a professional climber or rater? Why then should we, as non professional climbers have the responsibility of rating routes THRUST upon us?
We should not as a community trust the ratings of non-professional "weekend warrior" climbers. We should rather embrace the ratings that professional gym route-setters give, and use their wisdom to aid in rating outside climbs.
|
|
|
|
|
112
Sep 22, 2007, 11:07 PM
Post #6 of 42
(8060 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 15, 2004
Posts: 432
|
GabeWalker wrote: Hey everyone.
Hey Gabe!
In reply to: There is a route I climbed outside that says it is a 5.10-, and I think it is at least a 5.11b or 5.11c. I talked to a guy that was there and he said it is definitely stiff for the grade.
Sounds like you should down graded it to a 9+.
|
|
|
|
|
wildthing14
Sep 22, 2007, 11:19 PM
Post #7 of 42
(8049 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 21, 2007
Posts: 50
|
ouch
|
|
|
|
|
N_Oo_B
Sep 23, 2007, 1:40 AM
Post #8 of 42
(7979 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 21, 2007
Posts: 463
|
Carnage wrote: just cause its in a gym, it doesnt mean that its right i think the best way to determine the grade is climb other 11b's and c's in the area, along with some high 10's. see what the other stuff feels like, and make your rating suggestion based about the routes at that crag. consistency at the crag is more important
At least 1 person posted an answer worth reading.
|
|
|
|
|
EPiCJAMES
Sep 23, 2007, 2:59 AM
Post #9 of 42
(7956 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 8, 2007
Posts: 391
|
shu wrote: Carnage wrote: just cause its in a gym, it doesnt mean that its right Seriously though, why should we trust ratings from an uncontrolled environment (outside), when we can compare everything to ratings from a controlled environment (the gym).
ratings are going to be different from person to person. doesnt matter if you're indoor, outdoor. don't waste your time worrying if its a 5.10 or a 5.11 you just sent. just climb it for the climb.
|
|
|
|
|
nuts_bolts
Sep 23, 2007, 4:08 AM
Post #10 of 42
(7940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2006
Posts: 88
|
Carnage wrote: just cause its in a gym, it doesnt mean that its right the gym i climb at rates stiff. i know one of the route setters he has blatantly said that certain routes were rated hard for various reasons.
Hook... *here it comes*
Carnage wrote: i think the best way to determine the grade is climb other 11b's and c's in the area, along with some high 10's. see what the other stuff feels like, and make your rating suggestion based about the routes at that crag. consistency at the crag is more important than consistency with other places, especially at the gym.
...line... *waits for it*
Carnage wrote: also, since its rated 10-, i think you'd be better suggesting a 11- or 11 rating on it, since they don't appear to be using the a/b/c/d thing
AND SINKER!
|
|
|
|
|
bent_gate
Sep 23, 2007, 6:51 AM
Post #11 of 42
(7900 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2620
|
Gabe is back!
 
|
|
|
|
|
Valarc
Sep 23, 2007, 2:47 PM
Post #12 of 42
(7829 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 1473
|
shu wrote: God invented gyms to settle rating disputes! .... Gyms have professionals who set routes in a controlled environment and who rate climbs as a career. Why would we not trust their judgement? Are YOU a professional climber or rater? Why then should we, as non professional climbers have the responsibility of rating routes THRUST upon us?
Even if a routesetter is the most skilled, artistic setter in the world, with amazing routes, a gym route is not a rock route, and you could have an amazingly good setter who doesn't know dick about real rock. However, most setters are far from this ideal.
If even a small majority of gym routesetters were true professional climbers, this argument might hold some water. Sadly, many gym setters are high school gymbies who learned everything they know about grades from climbing on plastic routes set by high school gymbies. In my case I'm a college gymbie who learned all of my setting by climbing on routes set by college gymbies - I set some damn fun routes, but I'm not naive or arrogant enough to think my ratings have anything other than a passing resemblance to ratings on real rock. In fact, I purposely sandbag my ratings just a little bit, to try to compensate for the inherent difficulty that comes in figuring out a sequence on real rock where the holds aren't brightly colored and taped.
I enjoy gym climbing a lot, and I enjoy setting quite a bit too, but don't delude yourself into thinking it has anything to do with what happens on real rock. Go watch some 5.12 gym climbers get on real rock for the first time if you don't believe me. If we let gym-trained climbers decide the grades, 5.9s would be called 5.12s because someone couldn't figure out where the holds are.
The ONLY way one is going to accurately grade rock is by climbing rock - and a whole shitload of it. Even then, it's always going to be subjective, and that's the nature of the beast. Instead of trying to force some strict training with plastic routes onto it, chill out and don't worry about grades so much.
PS - You've been trolled, and I very well might have as well.
|
|
|
|
|
mturner
Sep 23, 2007, 4:54 PM
Post #13 of 42
(7788 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 980
|
Valarc wrote: PS - You've been trolled, and I very well might have as well.
You can't write an over-zealous three paragraph reply to a troll and then say the troller has been trolled. That's gotta be breaking some kind of troll etiquette.
|
|
|
|
|
Valarc
Sep 23, 2007, 10:24 PM
Post #14 of 42
(7734 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 1473
|
Sorry, didn't mean to blow your mind there.
I think indoor climbing gets a bum rap a lot of the time, and while I was pretty sure I was getting trolled, I also didn't wanna stand by and watch that guy give indoor climbing a bad name.
It's a lot of fun, it's a source of a good workout and a creative outlet for routesetters, but it sure as hell ain't a substitute for climbing real rock.
|
|
|
|
|
shu
Sep 24, 2007, 12:19 AM
Post #15 of 42
(7698 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2004
Posts: 44
|
Valarc wrote: It's a lot of fun, it's a source of a good workout and a creative outlet for routesetters, but it sure as hell ain't a substitute for climbing real rock.
Real rock isn't even DESIGNED for climbing. Plastic holds are designed ergonomically and for climbing.
Why would I want to climb anything that's not specifically designed to be climbed?
Forgot to write anything edit
(This post was edited by shu on Sep 24, 2007, 12:21 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
rocknice2
Sep 24, 2007, 1:02 AM
Post #16 of 42
(7670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1221
|
shu wrote: Valarc wrote: It's a lot of fun, it's a source of a good workout and a creative outlet for routesetters, but it sure as hell ain't a substitute for climbing real rock. Real rock isn't even DESIGNED for climbing. Plastic holds are designed ergonomically and for climbing. Why would I want to climb anything that's not specifically designed to be climbed?
Stupidest thing I've ever heard come from a rockclimber.
Oh wait a minute your a plasticlimber.
Diversity of sequences is just one quality that separates rock from plastic. On plastic you must climb the setters moves. If these are not your strong suit then the route becomes much harder than quoted. On rock there are [most of the time] intermediate holds.
Aw crap!! I just bit took bait.....wiggle,WIGGLE.....flap,FLAP.....jump HIGH out of water
|
|
|
|
|
mturner
Sep 24, 2007, 5:16 AM
Post #17 of 42
(7614 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 980
|
Number one way you know your troll is too easily noticeable?
All of the replies are trolls of your post.
I know, trolling is hard work...
(This post was edited by mturner on Sep 24, 2007, 5:18 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Sep 24, 2007, 3:33 PM
Post #18 of 42
(7555 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
mturner wrote: Number one way you know your troll is too easily noticeable? All of the replies are trolls of your post. I know, trolling is hard work... [image]http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/Pre-seasonlampard.jpg[/image]
Did Gabe gain some MORE weight since the time his "cover picture" was taken? I could swear the sag used to be less pronounced...
I bet THAT's why the 5.10 route felt so hard!
|
|
|
|
|
jh_angel
Sep 24, 2007, 4:51 PM
Post #19 of 42
(7510 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 12, 2004
Posts: 232
|
For real. 'Round here in New England, at least for trad routes, we have 5.9 and then "New England 5.9", which can be anything from 5.10-5.12. I have nothing but respect for Henry Barber and other from that generation, but lets upgrade those things and be done with it. It's not like people are asking to retrobolt the routes *shudder*.
|
|
|
|
|
Uncia
Sep 24, 2007, 8:01 PM
Post #20 of 42
(7454 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 3, 2007
Posts: 54
|
I think that new england 5.9 is just legacy from a time before climbers decided 5.10 wasn't completely confusing. We have the same thing around here.
|
|
|
|
|
jh_angel
Sep 25, 2007, 2:21 AM
Post #21 of 42
(7406 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 12, 2004
Posts: 232
|
Oh, I know it is, but for some reason some routes were upgraded to the "new" standards and others weren't. Not sure why.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
quiteatingmysteak
Sep 25, 2007, 3:03 AM
Post #23 of 42
(7376 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 804
|
shu wrote: Valarc wrote: It's a lot of fun, it's a source of a good workout and a creative outlet for routesetters, but it sure as hell ain't a substitute for climbing real rock. Real rock isn't even DESIGNED for climbing. Plastic holds are designed ergonomically and for climbing. Why would I want to climb anything that's not specifically designed to be climbed? Forgot to write anything edit
FUCK YOU condescending PRICK. You dont know SHIT about real climbing. I bet if you saw a real 5.12 you would SHIT YOUR PANTS you pondscum retard. I have been climbing for almost FIVE YEARS and not ONCE have i climbed in a gym except to go bouldering, and it is NOT nearly as good! When you can climb a route like Double Cross or Robbins Crack you can start to talk shit, but until than, shut the FUCK UP.
Serioulsy its pretentious NOOBS like you that are the fucking DEATH of this sport. someday you will forget to tie in, and fall, and probably DIE or even get HURT because you are so STUPID. GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
And why do you argue with all the REAL climbers here?? A simple search of the people you 'pretend' to argue with show that they climb MUCH harder than you could imagine, in some of the GREATEST climbing areas on earth. When you can go do routes in West Virginia or Texas you can say you knwo what good rock quality is. Until than stick to Supertop with all the noobs and leave the real climbers the fuck alone.
|
|
|
|
|
N_Oo_B
Sep 25, 2007, 4:03 AM
Post #25 of 42
(7294 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 21, 2007
Posts: 463
|
^^lol flamed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
