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sierraclimber1
Oct 3, 2007, 5:17 AM
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A lot of people are REALLY upset with the new proposed road plans. All National Forest areas are going through a new road plan nationwide. California will be done by Dec 2008 and the rest of the Nation by 2009
Here is what matters to climbers in the new plan.
They are going to close roads we use to access cliffs in National Forest. If you use a closed road after the plan is complete you will be ticketed. Most roads already on Forest Service maps will not be affected. Many smaller "climber" roads to crags will be closed however.
These roads can be saved if they receive input to keep them open.
If you have not gone to their website and checked their map to see if your favorite access road will be closed do it now! This is for the Sierras...
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sierra/projects/ohv/index.shtml
I know of at least three roads in the Shuteye area that are to be closed. Anyone checked Shaver area?
Based on the info I gathered the more people and groups that want a road open the better the chance of keeping it open. They basically want to know why it deserves to be a road. Also if a group "adopts" a road and volunteers to work on it that will carry even more weight.
There is a grassroots group that is going to submit its own road recommendations and is interested in including climber access roads. They are not up and running yet though. They also said we should submit info on an individual basis and as user groups.
Californians only have until this November to submit our requests! The best way to submit your road is to print the quadrant out from their website. Then circle the area in question with a number (if there is more than one) and write on the back where the road goes and why it should be open.
Grahm
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sierraclimber1
Oct 3, 2007, 5:39 PM
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Here is an email I just recieved...
Great observations Grahm. Thanks for sharing them
The ticket for being off the designated trails is up to $5000 for an individual
Once the roads & trails are designated if you are found on a road or trail that exists on the ground but not on the map you can receive a $5000 ticket
From my experience it will be pretty hard to know if you are on a designated road or not. The Forest staff stated that not having the most recent map will not be sufficient reason for them not to write you a ticket for being off the designated trails. They plan on reviewing the trails every year & publishing a new map. It will be the responsibility of the public to get the new map each year or be liable for fines.
Chris Horgan
Stewards of the Sequoia
Division of CTUC 501c3 Non Profit
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bandycoot
Oct 3, 2007, 6:20 PM
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So, you're worried about access to Shuteye eh? If memory serves right, the developers, etc, are trying to keep access to this area somewhat of a secret. RC.com has no directions for the area even though routes are in the database. Maybe if you post up directions on how to get there then you'd get more of a response to keep them open. Currently, I couldn't care less if they closed the roads.... 
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sierraclimber1
Oct 3, 2007, 8:30 PM
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You should care because the Forest Service will be closing roads nationwide that climbers use to access all sorts of crags not just Shuteye.
It sucks to me that just because you don't go there you think its OK to limit access. But its your right to feel anyway you want.
Also there will be a guide to the area coming out in 2009 that will have directions. At least with the roads that are left to use...
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bandycoot
Oct 3, 2007, 8:41 PM
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So what am I supposed to do? Should I tell them, "I want you to keep open that one road to that one climbing area, you know the one..." Haha, awesome. I fight closures when I think it's appropriate. I'm not aware of any climbing access roads that I frequent that are in danger of closure. I know nothing about Shuteye or its issues, in part because of the secrecy surrounding the area. Seems like the developer's might have shot themselves in the foot by trying to keep it secret and now they need letters. Maybe the hike in will keep the grid bolting down.
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norm1057
Oct 3, 2007, 8:47 PM
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Good for the Forest Service.
Here in my neck of the woods, the Lincoln NF has had a roads plan for years. This has been good for protecting the forest environment for our wildlife. As an avid hunter, I would like to be able to drive where ever I want. However, this would only destroy any chance of passing on an outdoor heritage to my children. If your legs work well enough to climb then they will work just fine to walk.
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wildthing14
Oct 3, 2007, 8:58 PM
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what's wrong with having to hike to some of our favorite climbing spots, the less moter vehicle access the better in my opinion, vehicles disrupt and destroy the wilderness that we climb any way. i would rather hike to a beautiful rugged crag than pull of the road with 100 other tourists to climb. i understand how frustrating it will be if some climbs are several miles in, however, the people who want to climb there will despite the hike. so i guess i don't think it's that big of a deal.
good of you to bring this up though, it an interesting subject...
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NoMoCouch
Oct 3, 2007, 9:22 PM
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I agree with sierraclimber. It also will discourage climbing beyond ones limits if it is inaccesable to wannabe's
BTW. Working my way from wannabe status currently.
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sierraclimber1
Oct 3, 2007, 9:26 PM
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Good to hear some other views on the subject!
My view is that if these access roads are already in place and we use them to get to our crags we should be able to continue using them.
I will be working on keeping the roads I know and use open. I posted this so other climbers who will be effected by road closures in their National Forest can look into it and see if they want to do anything about it.
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socalbolter
Oct 3, 2007, 10:47 PM
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Josh (bandycoot) is missing the whole point here, and has his info mixed up regarding Shuteye in general.
While it's true that Grahm is one of the primary developers these days in Shuteye, he's also the one that was all for providing approach info on this site (and posted complete directions and route info). He got a lot of shit over the decision to do that. The guys that want to keep access there confined to those in the know are from an entirely different group. If you want to check out Shuteye, the directions are easy enough to obtain. If nothing else PM Grahm or me and we'll get you there.
On a larger scale, this issue affects all National Forest roads and climbing areas approached on those roads. Whether you care about Shuteye or not doesn't matter. You should look at the maps that pertain to your local area(s) and comment as needed to limit impacts to your crags.
- Louie
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Tree_wrangler
Oct 3, 2007, 11:39 PM
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In reply to: From my experience it will be pretty hard to know if you are on a designated road or not.
Then you have very limited experience. I work for the Forest Service and am fairly intimately involved in road issues on my district. A road looks like a road, and will (or should) have an identification number on it. If you are seeing a marginal, rutted, overgrown track without any ID number, it may be a historical machine entry associated with logging or mining. But you wouldn't really mistake it as a "road".
If a road that currently exists is "closed", that means it will have a gate, rocks, or a giant pile of dirt sitting at the access point. If a road is not gated, bermed (dirt), or rocked, then you are permitted to drive it. It's exactly that simple. If you find a gate or berm that clearly folks have forced vehicles around it is still clearly closed.
Some roads have seasonal closures without gates. They are clearly signed, and it is the responsibility of the FS to keep them clearly signed. If they are not signed, the road is open. Period. Most of these small "climber" roads (they're really logging roads....you're not important enough to even think it's just for you) are less than 2 miles long.....they exist solely to access a timber unit and for no other reason.
Some roads are legally required to be closed, but due to past oversight, are currently not. As soon as we become aware of these situations, AND find money to deal with them, we close them as was supposed to have been done already. If such a road accesses a genuine public resource and has community support to keep it open, we listen. (on my forest)
For the record, the desires of the local community basically outweigh any "national policy". In my rural county in Oregon, folks may not oppose road closures, but they are virulently opposed to "road decommissioning" (obliterating a road forever). They've gotten their way, despite a national Clinton-era policy that favors road decomm. Remember, when it comes to policy.....a policy is just that...a policy. It is NOT a law, and exceptions to policy can be and are frequently made.
Anyhow..........
If you, as a member of the public, have a valid reason for keeping a road open, you should feel free to voice that opinion. Direct your comments to the District Ranger on whatever district the road exists on. I'd also suggest directing comments to the Forest Supervisor for the entire forest that the district lies on.
Be aware of issues with roads. If it is open, and heavily trafficked, who will be responsible for maintaining it? (and no, the answer isn't automatically the Forest Service....roads are very, very, very expensive to maintain, and were usually constructed solely for logging......the Forest Service doesn't "owe" you a parking lot or quick access to a rock just because you exploited a road made for another purpose).
Who is responsible for the costs associated with the massive landslide caused by the trafficked road? You? Or, would it be a better value to the public as a whole to protect the watershed below the road by closing it? It is not the Forest Services responsibility to maintain an expensive LOGGING road for the benefit of a very small recreating community. It's a nice idea, but the money is not there. The money won't be there next year either......there are just too many roads meeting this criteria to maintain them all in tip-top travel condition. Welcome to a reality of hard choices made for the "greatest good of the greatest number of people for the longest period of time." The climbing minority just doesn't fit that description.
What about the dumped cars, couches, tv's, meth labs, etc. that are ALL OVER these "roads of contention"? Will you assume responsibility for these costs and damages as well, since it was you who stood up for the community and demanded that they remain open?
I like access too. I don't love or hate roads....they're there. But, nobody is restricting your access by taking out a road. You're still permitted to go out there on foot, on horse, by bike........Just like your great grandparents were.
And for the record....Roadless areas are a great boon to wildlife, and native plant communities as well. Want to see a mountain lion? Spend some more time in a roadless area. (yeah, I've seen 'em on roads too.....)
Cheers.
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papa_eos
Oct 4, 2007, 1:48 AM
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bandycoot wrote: Maybe the hike in will keep the grid bolting down.
Well said!!! Wasn't that area a traditional "ground-up" area to start with?
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sierraclimber1
Oct 4, 2007, 1:55 AM
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Thanks Tree Wrangler for a view on the inside of this subject!
I would contend that each road has to be evaluated individually on its merits and many climber access roads are worth keeping open even if the majority of users don't use them. Just because the FS can't afford to maintain them doesn't mean they should be closed. Give climbers a chance to adopt the road and maintain it themselves.
I am just hoping roads that do not pose an environmental problem and get us closer to the crags stay open. There are LOTS of remote forest and crags out there. What is so wrong with a short approach to a few of the cliffs that already have great roads going to them? The Forest Service has not done anything to many of these roads for years and they are still in great shape. They can easily be maintained by local climbers.
The particular roads I am interested in don't have meth labs, trash or landslides. They have been cleared and leveled by heavy equipment. You make it sound like climbers are not willing to work on the roads. I have in fact done more than my share of road maintenance and know other climbers who have as well. We will offer to continue to do so when we submit proposals to keep these roads open.
The FS will have to do an environmental impact study on any road added to the new plan. If the road passes this test and climbers can use it, as well as maintain it, I think it should stay open.
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randomtask
Oct 4, 2007, 2:01 AM
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bandycoot wrote: So what am I supposed to do? Should I tell them, "I want you to keep open that one road to that one climbing area, you know the one..." Haha, awesome. I fight closures when I think it's appropriate. I'm not aware of any climbing access roads that I frequent that are in danger of closure. I know nothing about Shuteye or its issues, in part because of the secrecy surrounding the area. Seems like the developer's might have shot themselves in the foot by trying to keep it secret and now they need letters. Maybe the hike in will keep the grid bolting down.
My favorite part: "I know nothing about Shuteye or its issues....maybe the hike in will keep grid bolting down."
Way to go. In two sentences you go from" knowing nothing" to the complete opposite??. Grahm is using Shuteye as an EXAMPLE. It will happen to your neck of the woods soom I'm sure.
-JR
P.S. Look on a USFS map and you can get to Shuteye...unless you are really thick.
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Tree_wrangler
Oct 4, 2007, 2:35 PM
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In reply to: There are LOTS of remote forest and crags out there. What is so wrong with a short approach to a few of the cliffs that already have great roads going to them?
Absolutely nothing. Y'all just need to let the FS know where those specific roads are. Depending on the local admin unit, you'll either be received warmly or you'll leave cursing your government. There are a lot of great folks in the FS, there are also some real dullards in here too.
In reply to: The particular roads I am interested in don't have meth labs, trash or landslides. They have been cleared and leveled by heavy equipment. You make it sound like climbers are not willing to work on the roads. I have in fact done more than my share of road maintenance and know other climbers who have as well. We will offer to continue to do so when we submit proposals to keep these roads open.
That's a good angle. Just be aware that some of the maintenance issues may be beyond you, unless you have the experience, time, and money to operate heavy equipment. SO.....I'd suggest keeping an open mind about your favorite road....Do you have a second-best road that would still get you to your crag? On the other hand, as I guess you're aware, simply rerouting water on the road where it begins to rut will add decades of life to the road.
An issue that the FS will certainly bring up, once you've let them know that you're climbing out there is.....what is the impact to the rock-plant communities? Are Peregrines present? What about unmaintained, poorly constructed trails? Remember, that the FS is cash-strapped in a layperson's sense (it's complicated)....they don't want more Recreation sites to manage....So......just between the thousand of us, carefully build your trails before you involve the FS. Involve a wildlife Bio and botanist if you can, so that your route path is beyond criticism. "It's better to ask for forgiveness, than permission." If you ask first, the FS will probably tell you to not build trails, but they won't build them either. If you don't have access to biologists, limit your building to vegetation free areas, and keep it under control. (but yes....build! A well chosen trail is MUCH better than no trail construction....it limits wholesale traffic)
Attend any public meetings revolving around this issue. Many folks think that government happens in their absence, but that is wholly untrue. You (especially in the Forest Service arena) will have a chance to speak if you actually go and participate. We may not always like what we hear at public meetings, but we're listening. You'll have to sacrifice your own free time to be there, perhaps even miss work, but you at least get the opportunity to be involved in the discussion. Depending on the scope of the project, there may not be a public meeting, so don't forget to send a couple of letters to the Forest Supervisor and District Ranger.
To be true, I've not even heard of this new policy......are you sure that you're not confusing it with the coming OHV plan for all roads? ATV (OHV) use will be strictly managed within the next couple years, limiting them to signed ATV systems. (Hooray!)
I don't mean to go on and on.....but I'm honestly trying to help....
Oh yeah......be aware that there are issues in California that aren't major issues elsewhere. At a semi-recent training that I attended, there was a fellow from a National Forest by L.A. We were all suprised to hear that in So. Cal, camping is only permitted in official, pay-for-camping sites on his Forest. (That's unheard of up here). We asked why, and he mentioned the trash dumping, etc. AND mentioned that arson has become such a problem that the public must be strictly contained in that environment. Be aware of arson-fire issues down South. I expect that this problem will continue to escalate nation-wide...........
Good luck.
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sierraclimber1
Oct 11, 2007, 1:17 AM
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Here is a link with a letter from our local Forest Service. Basically they need input from users to decide which roads to close or stay open. They are closing many roads at this point so now is the time to act if your approach road is affected. This will be happening nationwide next year but California only has about 30 days left.
http://sotsnf.org/ohv_process.html
(This post was edited by sierraclimber1 on Oct 11, 2007, 1:23 AM)
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Tree_wrangler
Oct 11, 2007, 2:31 PM
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Aha!
I followed your link, and you are indeed talking about the coming OHV plan.
You might want to educate yourself about what is really going on here. These closures will apply solely to OHV's (4-wheelers, off-road dirt bikes, three-wheelers), NOT to regular vehicles.
This is also why you had mentioned that it would be difficult to tell why a road would be closed or not. In the coming OHV plan, specific OHV routes will be designated (on existing road systems), and they will be banned from all roads not part of the designated OHV system. Remember though, the roads that they are banned from will not be "closed roads", they will just restrict OHV's from playing there.
To my knowledge, these "closures" will not change access in any way, beyond current policy, for sedans, pickups, SUV's, etc........They're just trying to get some control over the wanton abuse that the off-road community is dealing out these days. There is more environmental damage, legal behavior problems, and blatant vandalism associated with OHV users than just about any other group of folks using public lands, so it's high time for some restrictions.....
Keep your ears up, and watch the policy change descriptions carefully to screen for closures that might affect you.....BUT, to my current knowledge, the coming "closures" affect ONLY OHV's. Unless you use an ATV to get to your crag, your volvo is still good-to-go.
On a different note....I mentioned trail building before.....I should have also mentioned that it's technically unlawful to build trails. Keep quiet about your involvement.....You don't know who built those trails, right? They were there when you got there, right? RIGHT?
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sierraclimber1
Oct 11, 2007, 4:58 PM
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If you went to the link I supplied in the very 1st post you would have seen that it is the OHV plan.
I have "educated" myself and even gone to the FS meetings and this policy is going to affect road access to cliffs all over for more than just OHV users.
Here is why: The Forest Service is now being required to create a road list of what roads are available for different uses. OHV users have added many roads to the system and now this will be stopped. Lots of new roads, old ones and ones that are on the standard maps used by ALL types of vehicles now have to be inventoried and a decision made if they should be closed. Some "Closures" in the new system will affect ALL types of vehicles. Some roads are 4x4, some not. Some roads used by climbers to access cliffs are now in jeapordy.
Even though it is an "OHV" plan it will affect ALL types of roads. All I am saying is look at the maps and find out from the FS if you have a road to a crag you want to remain open.
Grahm
(This post was edited by sierraclimber1 on Oct 11, 2007, 5:04 PM)
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Tree_wrangler
Oct 11, 2007, 5:16 PM
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Well, keep involved locally......I know in my locale this simply will not affect any vehicles except for OHV's. This primarily because of the massive outcry against further road closures here.
I will respond to one thing you said....
In reply to: OHV users have added many roads to the system and now this will be stopped.
No they haven't. Those are not system roads. Those roads you are thinking of are the illegal work of vandals, and they are no different than creating a new ATV trail through the middle of a public garden or park. Anyone, even right this second, caught driving on such roads will be fined. There are no issues regarding those trails, because the trails are illegal.
The problem is...how do you close an area to ATV access when they're perfectly willing to just chainsaw everything out of their way?
Nor would any court believe that you could have mistaken these abuses for legitimate roads.
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sierraclimber1
Oct 11, 2007, 5:27 PM
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I am glad road closures in your area will only affect OHV users. I personally don't like seeing double tracks all over the forest.
In my area the FS is planning on closing 2 roads that we use for access to crags. They are old established roads used from tree extraction and easily driven with a 2 wheel drive pickup.
Grahm
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moose_droppings
Oct 11, 2007, 5:54 PM
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Thanks for your input from the FS point of view. Every bit helps.
I would like to reiterate a valuable tibit of info here. Please, attend the meetings if at all possible. Rarely have I seen these meetings filled to the brim with people and their opinions. The truth is it is hard for people to make them, due to time and place constraints. I respect that, but give it the extra mile to make it in person. I've found that they are much more responsive to an actual face as opposed to written responses. When given the chance, give them a short and concise opinion. Long winded rants don't work. I've been to some meetings where the out come to 95% of the people requests have fallen on deaf ears. Its not always the will of the people living in the area, but at least you know you gave it your best shot.
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hiyapokey
Oct 11, 2007, 6:06 PM
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I loooove walking the old (closed) roads while hunting. The hiking is easy and quiet. I would much rather have one or few roads to an area and have to walk a little. Then I don't set up a car camp in someones favorite hunting spot and they don't set up a car camp in mine. I also don't like when I'm set up somewhere and a quad comes by creeping along at two miles an hour with some guy "scouting" with his loaded rifle on the rack. If someone is going to use a quad I think that they should use it to get to where they are going and then get off and walk. So I'm not opposed to roads closing on national forest. You can tell when the road is closed because the forest service plants a bunch of trees right at the entrance to the road. Theres nothing wrong with having to walk to the place your going. One person complains about access while the other complains about a particular crag being over used. When one door closes another one opens. The OP should though by all means look for help keeping the road open to his crag and is doing everyone a service by getting the news out. On the whole though I don't mind seeing old fire roads that dead end after a quarter mile anyway get closed.
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norushnomore
Oct 20, 2007, 9:29 AM
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sierraclimber1, what road are they planning to close?
I followed your link and clicked on the map.
It did not look like they are closing main road that takes you to the ridge
Any other ones I should be concerned about?
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sierraclimber1
Oct 20, 2007, 4:15 PM
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Thanks for your interest in Shuteye! I started a post in the Shuteye section on how to help with the 3 roads that are going to be closed in Shuteye that provide access to 3 different crags. The main road up on the ridge that goes to the Fire Lookout will remain unaffected by the new policy.
Here is the link to that post.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...;;page=unread#unread
I am heading off to the Forest Service public meeting right now. Please send in your maps asap to save these roads. The more people who respond the more likely they are to keep these roads open.
Grahm
(This post was edited by sierraclimber1 on Oct 20, 2007, 4:18 PM)
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