|
drunkenmonkey
Oct 9, 2002, 1:05 PM
Post #1 of 83
(49209 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2002
Posts: 93
|
This is something i heard about just before i left the valley so i don't know all the details. what i do know is that a british soloist on Reticent wall took a big whipper and then required a rescue, possibly due to injury. the climber was using a gri gri to solo with and its this that prompted NPS to prosecute? (Q: Are these the people who would decide to prosecute or not in this instance?)
whats the story here, i would have thought that a Gri Gri would be a good choice to solo with?
anyone know what grounds the park authorities decide to prosecute/charge for a rescue?
|
|
|
|
|
fishypete
Oct 9, 2002, 1:39 PM
Post #2 of 83
(49206 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 5, 2002
Posts: 200
|
I cant imagine that the gri-gri was their basis for prosecution.
There have been plenty of other tales of idiotic stunts that resulted in rescues - no prosecution.
Maybe they had another problem with this guy?
I am curious to find out the whole story!
Cheers
Fishy.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
Oct 9, 2002, 2:13 PM
Post #3 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
How do you lead solo with a gri-gri? I know how to do it on top-rope but I don't know how it's done while leading.
Don't worry, I'm not about to go out and solo anything (lead or top-rope), I was just wondering. If anyone is afraid to post information incase someone does feel the need to try it, then you can PM me or something.
Thanks,
Mike
[EDIT] Sorry for using the term "lead solo", but I was not sure what it was called when you lead a pitch and belay yourself while doing so. I have just read that it should be called "ropped solo", so I guess in my case I am wondering about "lead ropped solo" vs "topropped ropped solo"
[ This Message was edited by: vertical_reality on 2002-10-09 09:49 ]
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Oct 9, 2002, 2:48 PM
Post #4 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
Lead soloing with a Grigri?!
That's DANGEROUS!
[Just]
We'd best chase this one down, lads. Patrick, where'd you hear this? I had look at Chris Mac's supertopo forum, and also Camp 4, but I haven't seen or heard anything.
|
|
|
|
|
ronniefrown
Oct 9, 2002, 2:57 PM
Post #5 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2002
Posts: 50
|
what's the difference between lead soloing and free soloing???
|
|
|
|
|
tradguy
Oct 9, 2002, 2:58 PM
Post #6 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2002
Posts: 526
|
Maybe because he wasn't a US citizen and doesn't pay taxes here, they figured he should have to pay for the rescue services? Maybe. Just a thought.
|
|
|
|
|
tradguy
Oct 9, 2002, 3:00 PM
Post #7 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2002
Posts: 526
|
ronniefrown:
By "lead soloing" they are referring to rope soloing on lead (self belaying), versus free soloing where you are climbing unroped.
|
|
|
|
|
drunkenmonkey
Oct 9, 2002, 3:55 PM
Post #8 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2002
Posts: 93
|
Guys
don't know much more than i've already told you but i'm racking my brains to try and remember who it was that told me.
Apparently it was the fact that he was using a Gri Gri to solo with that lead to the decision to prosecute. The instructions to the Gri Gri appareently state that it should not be used as a rope soloing device hence the decision.
as i said i am working on second hand info. as well but i do recall the rescue team going up on (wed 2nd October?) - the day it rained in the vally in the morning for a rescue of some sort...
|
|
|
|
|
coloradoclimber
Oct 9, 2002, 4:20 PM
Post #9 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 43
|
Due to the charge of reckless endangerment it makes sense that it was for the use of a gri-gri. Because petzl condones the use of the gri-gri for soloing, someone using it would be classified as reckless. Therefore I feel it has nothing to do with where he is from.
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Oct 9, 2002, 6:30 PM
Post #10 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
Indeed!
If you get nothing else from this post, get this:
ALWAYS tie a backup knot, no matter what solo device you use!
|
|
|
|
|
bigdan
Oct 9, 2002, 10:15 PM
Post #11 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 12, 2002
Posts: 142
|
ive said it before and ill say it again. i still think that the clove hitch is the way to go. no possibility of failure, and with a little practice, its as fast as any other technique, at least for me. the time you might save using a device youll lose messing with backup knots.
|
|
|
|
|
addiroids
Oct 9, 2002, 10:29 PM
Post #12 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2001
Posts: 1046
|
So bigdan please explain how you re-ascend the rope on that A3 pitch to your high point after you fall on a clove hitch when you don't know the integrity of the piece that ended up catching you after 4 slide down to your harness?
Also, depending on the reason his grigri failed, I think it is crap to charge him for the rescue. Okay, we are talking about someone soloing the Reticent. Granted, there are some pretty stupid people out there, but I would guess that anyone who is soloing the Reticent is not stupid (maybe a bit crazy) and has their sh!t in gear. Maybe he didn't rebelay the rope through a piece on a long prussik to prevent it from sliding throught the grigri as he was climbing and didn't know how much slack was out. If you want to charge people, charge dumbass touron hikers for wondering off in the woods without any water or warm clothes and not having the common sense on how to get back to the main Valley (hint: go down hill!). I think the charge for reckless endangerment (to the rescuers??) is a little much though. But you have to remember we are dealing with the gubmint here.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
|
|
|
|
|
jds100
Oct 9, 2002, 11:28 PM
Post #13 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2001
Posts: 1008
|
I seem to recall that after a rescue a few years ago of some blatantly "unqualified" climbers on a big wall, that the Park Service was going to initiate a penalty for rescue if the rescued party was not prepared -in terms of gear and/ or technical skill- for the task they were undertaking. I apologize for not knowing for certain, but maybe someone more familiar with the area and the Park Service can shed some light on this part of the discussion.
If this is the case, I would suspect that prosecution could have come as a result of improperly using a belay device for a soloing device. Again, I suspect that the Service judged him to be unqualified for his chosen task, and use of the Gri Gri as a self-belay device provided some of the evidence for that judgement. If he had not needed a rescue, he would not have been found "unqualified", because his "qualifications" would not have been scrutinized.
And, I agree; I would like to see such discretionary application of penalties applied to tourists and hikers who seem to simply assume that they have a right to do whatever, because rescue is available.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2002-10-09 16:31 ]
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Oct 10, 2002, 1:26 AM
Post #14 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
The rescue in question took place on The Shield a few years ago.
Some Austrian dudes were charged for the cost of their rescue - and so they should have been.
They were rescued in a storm because of their improper equipment: cotton clothing, down sleeping bags, and no flies for their portaledges.
Can anyone find a link?
But still no news on this latest thing, eh?
|
|
|
|
|
jds100
Oct 10, 2002, 2:56 PM
Post #15 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2001
Posts: 1008
|
I've checked a lot of other sites that I believe would have info on this event, and have found no mention of it at all. I also did a Google search and again found nothing on this. So,...
If anyone finds a mention of this, I'd appreciate a PM notification. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
drunkenmonkey
Oct 10, 2002, 4:24 PM
Post #16 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2002
Posts: 93
|
Ok
doesn't appear to be any information about this anywhere other than a brief round of whispers from Camp 4 before i left so apologies for starting this one off.
if a hear anything else i will let you know.
|
|
|
|
|
bigdan
Oct 10, 2002, 5:08 PM
Post #17 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 12, 2002
Posts: 142
|
addiroids-
how to reascend the rope after falling on a clove? without untying the knot, obviously, use a prussik and a jug to move your weight off the know, attatch the grigri, remove the prussik, and ascend as usual. when you reach the piece, reverse the process and go back to the clove. ive done this once before, it wasnt a big deal. i just prefer leading on a clove i guess. its obviously about personal preference, but the clove seems more fail-safe than anything else ive used. besides, how often do you fall on a3. of course, sometimes, but its not like it happens on every other pitch or anything.
as for the rescue cost question, i cant imagine that someone knowledgable enough to be on reticent could be charged with anything, but who knows i guess. we need more details. but whenever i hear about these cases, i almost always think it unreasonable that a climber was charged with costs. usually its just accidents that happen, not gross negligence.
|
|
|
|
|
mrhardgrit
Oct 10, 2002, 7:35 PM
Post #18 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 28, 2001
Posts: 153
|
Hi,
It was me – so here’s my end of the story before you hear it from other rumours or the such like.
I was attempting to break the solo record on Eagle’s Way, A3 on El Cap. I wasn’t on Reticent – although there was another soloist over there at the time – may be got in trouble as well??
I Started at 4am by head torch and free climbed most of the first 6 pitches. Things were going well and I didn’t have any problems. In the afternoon I continued with the “meat and potatoes” of the climb after having a nice lazy lunch and a cool ledge below the Black Pillar (P7).
The end of pitch 10 was reached as darkness drew in. Pitch 11 is considered the crux, which I led in the darkness (doesn’t seem to hard then!). It was an awkward leaning corner with about 25ft of shallow Lost Arrows (prob didn’t help that I only had 3 with me – I like to go clean as poss…) and went ok until the belay at about 8pm (having climbed for 16 hours so far). When cleaning that pitch my first set of headlamp batteries ran out. Fortunately I had a brand new battery with me (from a unnamed climbing shop!) which turned out to be a total dud and gave out after half an hour on the pitch 12 whilst on all those RURPS. No big problem – I just lowered off to the belay and settled down for a night in my comfy harness.
Next morning I finished off leading pitch 12 and got all racked up for 13. It went bolt (backcleaned), rivet (big hanger), copperhead (backcleaned), RURP (backcleaned), RURP (backcleaned), copperhead. I had just taken my adjustable daisy from the RURP and was reaching up to the next placement when – PING … it’s roller coaster time! I fell 20ft back to the rivet, which broke and continued to fall until I fell directly onto the belay (factor 2 - nice!) The rope came tight on my GriGri – but that didn’t stop me – the locking karabiner just snapped off and I continued to fall for another 20ft until my back-up knot stopped me. On the way down, I hit a ledge with my knee (not injury sustaining luckily), flipped upside down and took some pretty bad rope burns to my left hand (I’m left handed). That was fun I thought… until the pain hit! I could hardly use my left hand and the fall had inflamed an old back injury, which turns me into a 90 year-old man.
I ascended the 40ft back to the belay and weighed up my options. I REALLY badly wanted to do this route in a good time. How fast could I lead, clean and jug each pitch now? It took me 20 mins to jug 40ft of rope just now…. Also my GriGri is mangled – I’m going to have use a slower system now. I can stand up straight, but bending over or exerting my back muscles in any way is killing me. Oh crap. Cut a long story short – I asked for a rescue. Yes, I hated myself for it and I know that it was the wimp’s way out. But at least I’m a wimp who gets to live another day.
The rescue went fine and YOSAR were absolutely brilliant as were all the nurses in the clinic. Then, the interviews started….
What I did wrong;
1. We argued for some considerable time over soloing with a GriGri. They really didn’t like it and especially didn’t like it when I insisted that I still think it is a good system and will continue to use it.
2. They didn’t like that it was my first solo of a big wall. Smaller stuff doesn’t seem to count – I guess that is their call.
3. They didn’t like my bivvy gear. Yes, I was unequipped for a storm, but how many speed climbers climb with a portaledge and fly? It was the chance that I took and I checked the weather from more than one source. Again, I accept that I was at fault.
So, in essence I can rightly be accused of recklessness – but I feel that I took adequate precautions (debatable of course!). I would have finished the route in the early afternoon, if I hadn’t been forced through bad luck to hold up in the darkness for 10 hours. The rain did not come until later in the afternoon. The fall was also, to some extent unlucky in the manner in which it debilitated me.
Well, there you go – hound me, criticise me and chastise me! I’ll try to answer all queries.
Tom
PS. All charges were dropped 2 days later and everything is fine now.
|
|
|
|
|
stoutclimb1
Oct 10, 2002, 8:04 PM
Post #19 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2002
Posts: 1261
|
oh
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Oct 10, 2002, 8:29 PM
Post #20 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
uhhh.. Wow.
Great story, gotta love you Brits. Classic understatement as always..
Brits got grits!
Glad the lad is OK. Your locker broke? Spot of bad luck there? Luck and and pluck you Brits.
What brand was it?
Regards;
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Oct 10, 2002, 8:58 PM
Post #21 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
Holy frig. Your story makes my story of the Flying Pig seem trivial by comparison!
OK, let me get this straight:
You told me, Tom, that you have gone up Eagle's Way, solo, and had bailed from around pitch 7 or so after you fell asleep and fell off the ledge, right?
So you went back, right?
Obviously you must have, you did not look any the worse for wear when I saw you!
OK, let's talk about backcleaning.
I realize that on speed ascents, many climbers backclean a lot! It scares the livin' bejeepers out of me, personally. [I rarely backclean, especially on hard aid, because I am a chickenshit. As a direct result, I have also never taken a big whipper.]
I watched Erik Sloan backclean nearly an entire pitch when we were attempting a speed ascent of Magic Mushroom. Backcleaning is fundamental when making speed ascents.
To me, it seemed insane, but Erik is a very skilled and experienced El Cap aid climber.
He was also on an A1 or A2 pitch at the time.
Which brings me to my critique:
Do you feel, Tom, that you have the necessary level of aid and El Cap experience to be backcleaning a hard aid pitch? Do you feel that you know when you might fall, and when you won't?
How many El Cap routes have you done? Have you done any as hard as Eagle's Way, which I would consider to be a "moderate"?
I think it's necky to attempt what you did, and I applaud your ballsiness, but it's your backcleaning I'm questioning.
My first thought was, he backcleaned a bolt?! But then I realized it was your first piece.
But you STILL shouldn't have backcleaned it, because leaving it clipped would have by definition eliminated the possibility of the true factor 2 that you took.
Your other fundamental error, at least as I see it, is that you should have put a screamer on the rivet. I sure as hell do! All the time, mate!
I need you to clarify, please, exactly what you mean when you write,
Quote:" The rope came tight on my GriGri but that didnt stop me the locking karabiner just snapped off and I continued to fall for another 20ft until my back-up knot stopped me.
What the hell does "snapped off" mean? Did you break a carabiner? What kind? How is your Grigri mangled? What the hell happened? It's not clear to me. I still consider a Grigri to be the aid soloists belay device of choice, unless you can convince me otherwise based on your explanation of precisely what happened.
[Aside: Good thing you tied a backup knot, eh? I met a guy who bailed from a solo attempt on N.A. Wall after he fell a long way when HIS Grigri didn't hold a fall, and his backup was way too long and he fell a long long way!]
Tell me about the rain. You did not have storm gear. If the forecast appeared good, I would not have brought storm gear either in your situation.
Did it rain? If so, when? What did the forecast say, and was it wrong?
I applaud your neckiness, and do not consider it recklessness.
Please tell us about the extent of your injuries! How is your back and your bod? Your rope burns - how bad are they? My friggin' rope burn behind my knee has finally dried up, but it superated for a week. Yuck, eh?
I am Dr. Piton,
and I will continue to solo El Cap in my shorts using a Grigri - I'll just tie my backup knots more frequently!
P.S. You're lucky to be alive, mate. Glad you're still with us.....
|
|
|
|
|
jds100
Oct 10, 2002, 9:14 PM
Post #22 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2001
Posts: 1008
|
Thanks for the info; glad the charges were dropped.
Pete: are there websites that do (or should) have reliable up-to-date accident info for Yosemite, or for climbing in general? I checked a bunch, and the gov't. ones seem to have data that's 2 years old; nothing on Camp 4 website; nothing on SuperTopos. Maybe it's just not vital enough to keep track of (?).
|
|
|
|
|
pattray
Oct 10, 2002, 9:35 PM
Post #23 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 26, 2002
Posts: 294
|
I bet it was an English brand
|
|
|
|
|
mrhardgrit
Oct 10, 2002, 9:46 PM
Post #24 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 28, 2001
Posts: 153
|
Ok,
Reply to the things I remember;
1. Brand - It was a DMM Locker - one of the ones with the red gate - I bought it with one of those "Belay safe" plastic guards. Not sure of the name though. It was bomber and NEW.
2. The first failure was the locker - this snapped. The second instance was the rope pulling through the GriGri and pushing the plastic out of the bottom and shearing off one of the minor bolts/screws.
3. Please note; essentially this was not the GriGri failing - I am still happy with the system and device, hence not giving up soloing.
4. Hand is getting better. Obviously not close to climbing at the mo' but will in the future. Back is just a continual nightmare... Hey, at least I'm alive and walking!
Tom
|
|
|
|
|
addiroids
Oct 10, 2002, 9:56 PM
Post #25 of 83
(49204 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2001
Posts: 1046
|
Glad you are still with us bro and that they dropped the charges. Sh!t happens, you did what was usually done, you just got into a shitty sitch. That's what the rescue team is for. I don't think what you did was reckless, but I would advise not to clean your first few pieces off the belay especially if one is a bomber bolt. Just thank the Bird for starting Yosar and not some tool from the NPS.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag (Prow [not] in 3 days!!)
Edit to censor the word sh!t like I want to.
[ This Message was edited by: addiroids on 2002-10-10 14:58 ]
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
