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dazed
Oct 24, 2007, 10:45 PM
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I don't know if anyone here has children (approx. 5 to 8) in a daycare or after school program at the Keene, New Hampshire YMCA. If they went climbing today, 10-24-07 at around 4:00PM, I advise that you remove them from their program.
The person in charge was not a staff member of the YMCA. He had 6 or 7 kids at the climbing wall, where I observed a number of unsafe practices. He initially asked me to borrow one of my biners (I climb on my own gear, not the YMCA's gear), which I have no problem with if it was used properly. Then proceeds to set one of the older looking girls up to belay. She was wearing the gym variant of the Petzl Pandion harness. Instead of attaching the anchor line into the belay biner, he uses my biner to hook the anchor to the back of the harness. At this point I informed him that this practice was unsafe, and that I wanted my biner back, which was grudgingly returned. Apparently his method was correct because he had "done it that way for years"...
The girl had no business belaying. The man in charge set her up with a grigri. Although it is an autolocking devise, the break hand should remain on the rope, which was not the case. The brake end was dropped repeatedly Watching her lower the climber made me cringe.
The man in charge should not have been belaying either. He tried to set up an ancient belay plate, but did not set it up correctly, he put the belay biner through the plates wire and the rope, but not through his harness nor to an anchor. The kid climbing the wall took off and fell, thankfully only a few feet off the deck.
At this point, a number of other climbers and I approached a staff member about this issue. The staff member asked the guy if he knew what he was doing, to which he answered yes. The staff member said he could stay, despite the staff member knowing nothing about climbing. Ordinarily, something of this nature would be brought to the attention of the climbing director. However, he was fired a number of months ago, and the acting director (who is far more knowledgeable about the sport) was not present.
I would normally let the staff handle such an issue, however, corrective action was not taken. It is for this reason that I chose to post this here. If this is against the terms and conditions, remove it. I realize that I have not been very active here, but I assure you that every word of this is true. I sincerely hope that none of your children were involved with this.
Ryan
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macherry
Oct 24, 2007, 10:48 PM
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is this a climbing gym?
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JohnCook
Oct 24, 2007, 10:55 PM
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If this was at a climbing gym, please tell the community which gym, it has a right to know if the supervision of a facility is inadequate, especially in an high risk sport.
Are the staff trained in first aid, do they know how to belay/instruct belaying. How good is their training, how old are they. There are a hundred questions I would like to ask, but these are enough.
Climber safety is an issue, especially for beginners. a small fall can cause injury.
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dazed
Oct 24, 2007, 10:55 PM
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It is a typical ymca, with a rock wall. It has ball courts, weights, ect. The wall is typically not staffed, but one is supposed to be a "certified" belayer to actually belay. Ones chances of being asked if they are certified are slim to none.
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JohnCook
Oct 24, 2007, 11:02 PM
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How in a safety concious (and litigious) society like the US can something like this continue to operate. Surely there are rules and they should be adhered to. Here in Daallas/Fort Worth, until they got to know my face I was repeatedly asked if I had been checked for my belaying by that gyms personnel. All the staff are trained and know what they are doing.
It makes me feel safe (an odd thing for a climber, but I want to stay in one piece snd like my risks controlled by me.) I frequently see staff at these gyms reprimand customers for rule breaking, eg. walking under someone elses rope. Bouldering below a climber, etc.
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glytch
Oct 24, 2007, 11:04 PM
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That's terrifying. A climbing instructor in charge of kids that literally doesn't know how to belay.... After dropping a child who he was belaying, he still maintained that he knew what he was doing?! and the employees didn't take a hint!? ugh.
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dazed
Oct 24, 2007, 11:42 PM
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I'll try to answer some of the questions:
The since the wall is not staffed, people bring whatever first aid knowledge they have with them.
When I was learning to belay, I was instructed by a knowledgeable staff member, certified, and I have a card on file stating that I am certified. This is no longer the standard procedure. Anyone could walk in, say that they are certified, and climb without further disruption. Since we no longer have a director, nor climbing staff, anyone could potentially belay, certified or not. We are reliant upon a small number of volunteers to teach belaying to whomever shows up for open climbing. They are aloud to let competent non certified belayers belay with supervision, and are the only ones aloud to make that decision. This is not enforced. The volunteers range from 17 to 65. I trust them to belay me, and I set very high standards. I would not, however, recommend that they teach.
One is "required" to sign a waiver before climbing, clearing the YMCA of anything but extreme gross negligence. Once again, this is not enforced.
Glytch, he continued to maintain that he knew what he was doing, even after dropping the child. 15 minutes after that he left.
Keep posting, and I'll keep answering...
There are numerous other safety concerns, including a rope with a core shot that was not replaced until long after the damage appeared. There is currently a lawsuit pending against the YMCA regarding personal injury from a locker. All in all, I am making a few pretty good reasons to find someone to climb outside with...
(This post was edited by dazed on Oct 24, 2007, 11:46 PM)
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angry
Oct 24, 2007, 11:50 PM
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I find it odd that YMCA's are building climbing walls when about 10 years ago many removed diving boards because they were unsafe.
I'm not saying that a springboard is safe but usually the only ones to hurt themselves are trained (ie, they get too damn close the board).
I'm glad I have access to real walls and rocks for that matter. When I die and go to hell, it'll probably just be a rec center.
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macherry
Oct 25, 2007, 12:38 AM
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i'm not surprised this happened. A lot of community centers, Y's, etc. put up a wall and require nothing more of patrons.
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gunkiemike
Oct 25, 2007, 12:45 AM
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Troubling report indeed. But I would disagree with your assessment (if I read it correctly) re. clipping the rear of the harness. Back in the Stone Age before there were sewn harnesses with belay loops, it was pretty common to attach a sling ("cowstail" we called it) to the back of the harness. This went to the tree as we sat at the edge of the cliff for a sitting hip toprope belay. I see nothing wrong with using it in a gym in principle, though it puts the squeeze on the belayer when they have to catch a fall, but that wouldn't likely be a problem with a child climber.
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JohnCook
Oct 25, 2007, 1:01 AM
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I started climbing in the dark ages (1967) After we stopped using waist belays abd started using either stitch plates or figure eights we soon realised that clipping the back of the harness (which were another new thing, I learned to lead on a waist length or swami, hence the old saying 'the leader shall not fall', it hurt like shit and suffocated you if you didn't have a prussic loop to hand.) was not a good idea. If a leader or a heavy second fell, you were compressed by the harness. I can honestly say that since about 1971 I have rarely seen anyone clip into the back of the harness, (except a few crazy Aussie speed rapellers who were running down the cliff face first, for fun!) This guy must therefore be very old, not in itself a bad thing, very set in his old fashioned ways, (did he wear a knitted patterned jumper by any chance) or he had learned to belay from one of the very old books, which seem to be the only climbing books in libraries these days.
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N_Oo_B
Oct 25, 2007, 1:59 AM
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not all that supising, just disappointing.
We had a church gym in town with a few 100 holds for years, but for insurance reasons it wasn't allowed to be used.
A few weeks ago I found out they threw all the plywood / t-nuts / and 100's of holds in the trash since they had no use for them.
*shrug* I guess I'd rather see that vs. what this guy is seeing.
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dazed
Oct 25, 2007, 2:12 AM
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That was sort of my point about the harnesses. The Pandion is a pretty bare bones harness, and as much as I would like to to think that the stitching and buckle would hold, it was most defiantly not designed to do so. The thing does not even have a haul loop! The only safe way to clip to that harness is through the tie-in/belay loop. Even the manufactures of harnesses designed to take weight from the back via haul loop state not to anchor to it. And just for a moment suppose that the waist loop did fail, the belayer would flip upside down, and pulled up, hopefully the leg loops would keep the belayer in place, otherwise both may fall to the deck. It seems stupid just to take the risk.
Despite this, your point does seem valid. I have never used a hip belay and therefore can not comment about any shortcomings ect. Despite this, would you send your 8 year son or daughter up with someone setup like that?
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JohnCook
Oct 25, 2007, 2:27 AM
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Definitely not. Stopped using hip belays as soon as I got a harness and stitch plate (Now use BD). Never tied into back of harness, having tied into back of swami and caught a very heavy second, the principle is the same.
I have introduced a lot of newbies, including my own son. When teaching newbies I make an extra special effort to instill correct safety procedures.
I still like a laugh, climbing is about fun, and when with my peers occasionally take shortcuts, like soloing a route with the rope in my hand to set up a top rope, but notjing that will harm others. They are warned not to stand under me when I'm soloing.
I hope that this gym gets copies of this forum and that the General Manager and/or the YMCA are brought up to speed on what is safe practice and the resposibilities of staff at their facilities. (All belayers should be checked at least once when they start using the wall and that records should be brought up to date. Honest climbers won't mind the few minutes it takes to have their belaying checked. Staff supervising the wall should be trained in safe practices and first aid. There are many other areas which probably need attention, eg. if there's a pool, would they have non-swimming lifeguards?
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zuegma
Oct 25, 2007, 3:17 AM
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Registered: May 9, 2006
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Whats even worse are some of those inflateable rock walls that are about 25-30 feet tall. i was at one and the people dont even really belay you. they just have a gri gri and walk forward and backward to take up the slack, kinda scary. but yea with some rock walls its a big problem
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