Nov 19, 2007, 8:42 AM
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Devils Tower Voluntary June Ban Poll
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Hey everybody. I'm writing a lengthy report on the Devils Tower/Bears Den conflict for my college class and I thought it would be awesome to have some input in the form of actual poll numbers. If you have a valid *new* thought to add to this subject, please feel free. There's a few posts on RC.com already that do a pretty good job explaining the various ideas out there (both for and against the voluntary ban). I've researched just about every possible viewpoint on this matter.
Also, any locals who have more current thoughts on how the closure is working out or what modifications should be made should definitely post them up or PM me. I've heard that the ban isn't working as well as it used to. Any thoughts?
We don't need to get upset about this. It's just a poll.
Hey everybody. I'm writing a lengthy report on the Devils Tower/Bears Den conflict for my college class and I thought it would be awesome to have some input in the form of actual poll numbers. If you have a valid *new* thought to add to this subject, please feel free. There's a few posts on RC.com already that do a pretty good job explaining the various ideas out there (both for and against the voluntary ban). I've researched just about every possible viewpoint on this matter.
Also, any locals who have more current thoughts on how the closure is working out or what modifications should be made should definitely post them up or PM me. I've heard that the ban isn't working as well as it used to. Any thoughts?
We don't need to get upset about this. It's just a poll.
In all of your research did you come up with solid numbers of Native American that travel to the tower each year during the month ban? I would be interested in seeing the exact numbers.
I didn't vote. I think there is an area between your two options.
I also gotta agree with this too. It seems like the question is phrased to make you want to answer "respect", which is not the antonym of ignore BTW...
"The key in survey research is to ask questions that people care about the answers, and to ask the question in a way that you get the right answer."
Same self-centered, self-serving bullshit, different year - only this time Frank appears to be climbing to improve the lives of Native Americans on the reservation (where clearly he'd like them to stay). Frank, who I'm guessing is in every other respect probably a great guy, seems wholly incapable of seeing beyond his personal resentment and needs (personal and possibly commercial) relative to this issue.
As if last year's attempt to cast climbing as a co-equal religion wasn't insulting enough, Frank has suddenly taken a deep interest in the well being of Native Americans on the reservation. Well, here's an idea - spend June on the reservation volunteering in some capacity or another rather than self-servingly summiting every day.
And people wonder what the implications of Cave Rock might be. Maybe folks would like to go back to court over the DT voluntary closure with that precedent in hand. Clueless.
Same self-centered, self-serving bullshit, different year - only this time Frank appears to be climbing to improve the lives of Native Americans on the reservation (where clearly he'd like them to stay). Frank, who I'm guessing is in every other respect probably a great guy, seems wholly incapable of seeing beyond his personal resentment and needs (personal and possibly commercial) relative to this issue.
As if last year's attempt to cast climbing as a co-equal religion wasn't insulting enough, Frank has suddenly taken a deep interest in the well being of Native Americans on the reservation. Well, here's an idea - spend June on the reservation volunteering in some capacity or another rather than self-servingly summiting every day.
And people wonder what the implications of Cave Rock might be. Maybe folks would like to go back to court over the DT voluntary closure with that precedent in hand. Clueless.
Healyje, have you ever spent any time with Frank? I ask because your impression of him is so completely at odds with mine. I have spent time with him. And that time makes it difficult for me to imagine how anyone could formulate such an opinion unless he or she had not.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Nov 19, 2007, 5:40 PM)
Nov 19, 2007, 5:42 PM
Post #10 of 28
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Re: [atpeaceinbozeman] Devils Tower Voluntary June Ban Poll
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
healyje wrote:
Well, here's an idea - spend June on the reservation volunteering in some capacity or another rather than self-servingly summiting every day.
Is that how you personally benefit the Native American culture? Or are you just trying to tell Frank how to spend his time?
I'm married to it, I live with it, and see through that lens the effects of past and present US policy towards Native Americans. I've seen and lived it through the impact on my own extended family.
But, this isn't about how I benefit my wife's or other tribes (though they've been through the mill with out-of-hand climbers on their reservation as well) this is about yet another one of Frank's bullshit, ham-handed, and hypocritical attempts to encourage climbers to ignore the voluntary June climbing ban.
Frank couldn't give a rat's ass about the quality of life on the reservation - Frank only cares about his ability to climb DT unimpeded. Even that cool, he just needs to stop attempting to wrap it in hypocritical trappings that just piss people off and just speak plainly and honestly to the issue. These sorts of approaches to the issue are dishonest, contrary, and - again - in light of the new Cave Rock precedent, less than wise.
Healyje, have you ever spent any time with Frank? I ask because your impression of him is so completely at odds with mine. I have spent time with him. And that time makes it difficult for me to imagine how anyone could formulate such an opinion unless he or she had not.
As I said, Frank is probably a great guy in every other respect - but in this matter I can formulate an opinion based on his own words both here and on his website. I'm old and trad-to-the-bone and love climbing with the old guys everywhere I go and would love to get back to DT and climb with someone like Frank. That's not likely to happen with with this issue I'm guessing, but hey, that's cool. In this regard the whole matter is a bummer, but climbers are being politically niave if they think this sort of behavior is in their best interest - it isn't, particularly in light of Cave Rock.
Nov 19, 2007, 6:21 PM
Post #13 of 28
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Re: [atpeaceinbozeman] Devils Tower Voluntary June Ban Poll
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree with you. I believe Frank does, in fact, "give a rat's ass about the quality of life on the reservation"
If he does, then he'd be wise to drop the bullshit and just speak plainly on the issue and not attempt to co-mingle it with the quality of life on the reservation.
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Also, like I said above, the Superintendent of Devils Tower, Dorothy FireCloud, supports Frank's project...
FireCloud has to respond politically - which would be to support any legal entity claiming to said concern - that in no way obviates the sheer hipocrisy Frank keeps displaying on this issue. Again, he - and climbing - would be better served if he just spoke out plainly against the voluntary closure instead of continuously attempting to claim that his personal and commercial interests in climbing are a religion or that his climbing is somehow a benefit to Native Americans' interests either in DT or elsewhere.
Nov 19, 2007, 6:25 PM
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Re: [atpeaceinbozeman] Devils Tower Voluntary June Ban Poll
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I just love seeing you guys get bent out of shape over someone who climbs DT in June. You are wasting your time. You know why...It's a VOLUNTARY CLOSURE!!!
vol·un·tar·y adj. 1. Done or undertaken of one's own free will. 4. Capable of making choices; having the faculty of will.
My Favorite:
6. Law: Without legal obligation or consideration.
By definition Frank or anyone can climb if they want to. No one is telling them they can't, only that they would like them to consider not climbing.
But I am wasting time. If you want my opinion on the voluntary closure I have covered it here.
I just love seeing you guys get bent out of shape over someone who climbs DT in June. You are wasting your time. You know why...It's a VOLUNTARY CLOSURE!!!
Yes, it's voluntary at the moment as a compromise with the tribes. But with Cave Rock on the books that could easily change if the voluntary closure were widely perceived as a failure and there was ample documentation local climbers with commercial interests in climbing were actively working to undermine it. Again, actively encouraging climbers to climb DT in June - under any rubric, guise, or scheme - is politically an unwise course of action.
Nov 19, 2007, 7:34 PM
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Re: [atpeaceinbozeman] Devils Tower Voluntary June Ban Poll
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
healyje wrote:
Yes, it's voluntary at the moment as a compromise with the tribes.
By 'compromise with the tribes' I should point out that it was the tribal elders who wanted it voluntary not mandatory...read about it here: http://outside.away.com/...onal-monument-4.html
And that was a wise call on their part - prior to Cave Rock. The landscape is considerably different in its wake.
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
healyje wrote:
But with Cave Rock on the books that could easily change if the voluntary closure were widely perceived as a failure and there was ample documentation local climbers with commercial interests in climbing were actively working to undermine it. Again, actively encouraging climbers to climb DT in June - under any rubric, guise, or scheme - is politically an unwise course of action.
Thing is, the voluntary closure is widely regarded as a success.
Although voluntary, this closure has been very successful - resulting in an 80% reduction in the number of climbers during June.
And it would be great for it to stay that way. Frank encouraging folks to climb in June and provided ample documentation to that effect does nothing to help insure the perception the closure is an enduringly successful approach to dealing with the issue.
Overall his [well-documented] approaches to the issue are about on par with claiming the roof of his B&B is a natural Peregrine nesting eyrie and adequate in lieu of the Peregrine closures.
Healyje, have you ever spent any time with Frank? I ask because your impression of him is so completely at odds with mine. I have spent time with him. And that time makes it difficult for me to imagine how anyone could formulate such an opinion unless he or she had not.
As I said, Frank is probably a great guy in every other respect - but in this matter I can formulate an opinion based on his own words both here and on his website. I'm old and trad-to-the-bone and love climbing with the old guys everywhere I go and would love to get back to DT and climb with someone like Frank. That's not likely to happen with with this issue I'm guessing, but hey, that's cool. In this regard the whole matter is a bummer, but climbers are being politically niave if they think this sort of behavior is in their best interest - it isn't, particularly in light of Cave Rock.
Ah, well, It's not my job to convince you otherwise. I do hope you meet him someday, though. In this day and age, he's a rare individual.
Thanks for the quick replies. I realize that the poll doesn't have all the available options. Obviously this is a much deeper issue than a simple yes/no poll. Still, I believe that most people can make a decent decision when presented with these two options.
Moreover, I'm not particularly interested in one person's personal opinion on the matter. I'm interested in the combined opinions of all rock climbers. Frank Sanders, as cool or uncool as you guys say he is, is only one man. For the topic of my paper, I chose to focus more on the climbing population and the Native population as a whole. Folks like Frank aren't indicative of the "whole" and, while their opinions are important, don't represent the larger consensus.
My paper is due in 20 hours, so I'll have to skip on most of the down-and-dirty information this time. Keep the poll results coming! I'll insert the final count on my way to class in the morning.
Nov 20, 2007, 3:31 AM
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Re: [atpeaceinbozeman] Devils Tower Voluntary June Ban Poll
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
healyje wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
It's rather pointless discussing this issue if you're going to use logical fallacies.
Ah, but clearly climbing-as-a-religion you have no problem with...
If someone considers climbing as part of their spiritual worship, I respect that. You have no right invalidating the faith of others, traditional or not.
Please, spare me - claiming climbing has personal spiritual experiential elements is one thing, proposing and encouraging folks to claim climbing is a co-equal religion is a vacuous, utterly transparent, and desperately misguided political strategy for access. Only one common thread weaves through all these 'initiatives' - Frank being bummed about the prospect of any form of climbing closure. And I'm doing my damnest to give him the benefit of the doubt here relative to his commercial interests in the matter. I'm guessing and hoping those don't significantly play into the matter, but the more he pushes into the realm of formally resourced efforts, the more one begins to wonder.
In all of your research did you come up with solid numbers of Native American that travel to the tower each year during the month ban? I would be interested in seeing the exact numbers.
JB
the NPS didn't have any numbers on this, but did mention that they have issued an unknown number of "special use permits" for larger gatherings. the woman I spoke with said that many many Natives just come onto the monument in quiet and don't "register" that they're going to pray.... so, numbers aren't conclusive, but if you're in doubt you should watch "In the Light of Reverence." It's a pretty good film about the whole thing, albeit biased.
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