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tomtom
Nov 30, 2007, 8:38 PM
Post #26 of 34
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Registered: Jan 9, 2004
Posts: 366
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builttospill wrote: Here's a question for the group: My system seems to work fine as it is, ... What do people think? Should I drop $200 hard-earned dollars on something?
If your system works, then there is no reason to change it. Especially for something that costs 10x as much.
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stymingersfink
Dec 1, 2007, 1:25 AM
Post #27 of 34
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Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
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angry wrote: I consider softshells 130+bpm clothing. If your heart-rate isn't 130bpm or more in them, you're gonna fucking freeze.
I've spent quite a few days rockin' the resort on the board in Schoeller pants and a Gamma SV jacket, innumerable days climbing ice in them, or even just the jacket toolin' around town. I think it depends quite a bit on one's tolerance for cold as well as what kind of conditions one's expecting to encounter.
I'll not lie, I've been on the cold side wearing the schoeller a few times, even wished I'd taken the time to break the shell out of the pack. Most times though, I'd rather be a little cool while belaying, than sweating my ass off on the lead.
The fact remains that it can be a very versatile piece of clothing, sufficient to protect you in a wide range of conditions, depending on the design parameters of the manufacturer, your layering system, and what you're willing to pay.
Absolutely Necessary? No.
Pretty damn handy? Hell yeah.
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Arjen
Dec 5, 2007, 4:11 PM
Post #28 of 34
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Registered: Oct 21, 2007
Posts: 17
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angry wrote: I consider softshells 130+bpm clothing. If your heart-rate isn't 130bpm or more in them, you're gonna fucking freeze. I use mine for all night bike rides in the winter. I love it on the approaches, and it's nice to climb in if it's a single pitch and getting back down to the belay jacket is just a lower or rappel away. Multi-pitch or mountaineering, I wouldn't even consider it. Goretex with pit zips, it aint great but you won't get hypothermia that way.
What is actually the different insulation between gtx and soft shell? Gtx is a fabric thats a bit breathable and waterproof, soft shell is one thats a bit waterproof and breathable... Can't see why gtx is by definition warmer than a soft shell.
If its not wet I won't wear a waterproof because they make me wet on the inside- soft shell however, keeps me dry.
I am getting a fan of fleece vests, they give a lot of warmth while they don't restrict movement while climbing.
I intend on climbing ice in a baselayer, fleece (cheap and cheerful), vest (when its cold) and a winter softshell. Belay jacket (down) for when it starts getting cold.
Though I doubt I'll stay nice and warm all the time- winter climbing is all about suffering, gritting your teeth and 'enjoying' hot aches...
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Crimsonghost
Dec 5, 2007, 5:08 PM
Post #29 of 34
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Registered: May 30, 2007
Posts: 36
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[I consider softshells 130+bpm clothing. If your heart-rate isn't 130bpm or more in them, you're gonna fucking freeze]
Er, why? Goretex isn't really renowned for it's insulating properties. If you find you're getting cold wearing a softshell either layer up under or over it. It'll still breathe better and be more abrasion resistant than Goretex. Waterproof fabrics are mostly a waste of time and money for use in cold weather.
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stymingersfink
Dec 5, 2007, 5:15 PM
Post #30 of 34
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Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
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Arjen wrote: What is actually the different insulation between gtx and soft shell? Gtx is a fabric thats a bit breathable and waterproof, soft shell is one thats a bit waterproof and breathable... Can't see why gtx is by definition warmer than a soft shell.
Softshells generally are highly water-resistant, fairly breathable, relatively (when compared to GTX) cheap.. great for a layering piece or as outer layer on days when conditions are not expected to be absolutely miserable. Their breathability makes them great for aerobic activities IME, though sometimes I'm still going to unzip the front to cool down a bit faster. OTOH, if there's water flowing near/over the ice and the soft-shell gets wet, when the wind blows it's going to cool you off beyond a level of comfort, whether you're climbing or belaying.
A good tool, but not appropriate for all situations, just most of them.
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angry
Dec 5, 2007, 5:19 PM
Post #31 of 34
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Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
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Only because of wind.
They don't hold your warm air in nearly as well as a gortex fabric. I'm well aware that gortex isn't insulated but they keep the wind out.
If you're working out and producing enough heat a softshell is nice because it allows some of that heat to escape. It's essentially a $300 heavy cycling jersey. In fact, my first "softshell" was a Festina winter jersey made by Biemme. The only difference between it and my Moonstone is the pocket structure and the climbing cut vs cycling cut.
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justinboening
Dec 5, 2007, 6:00 PM
Post #32 of 34
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Registered: Nov 1, 2006
Posts: 119
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Hey Angry,
When it's windy and cold, I wear a Wildthings EP jacket--essentially a Epic shell quilted with Primaloft. The piece is both warm (in fact, too warm for all but truly winter conditions), and wind proof. Oh yeah, it's also a soft shell--meaning the design of the shell still values breathability over water resistance. Check it out. The only time for rain gear is when it's raining. Otherwise, there's a clothing system out there that's lighter and more comfortable. Full stop.
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Crimsonghost
Dec 5, 2007, 6:22 PM
Post #33 of 34
(486 views)
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Registered: May 30, 2007
Posts: 36
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angry wrote: Only because of wind. They don't hold your warm air in nearly as well as a gortex fabric. I'm well aware that gortex isn't insulated but they keep the wind out.
They also keep the moisture that you generate in. If you want to stabilize the warm air next to your skin (create a microclimate) you could buy a Driclime shirt for about a quarter of the cost of a GTX jacket. When you're working hard, it will actively draw moisture away from your skin - stopping you from supercooling when you stop moving. This helps you stay much more comfortable during the day.
I agree that there are times when you encounter running water when ice climbing, but if you're softshell has a decent DWR finish, it will cope. When you stick your belay jacket over the top any moisture in the softshell will dry out. These days the only time I wear a waterproof is when it's raining hard.
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dobson
Dec 5, 2007, 7:27 PM
Post #34 of 34
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Registered: Oct 6, 2004
Posts: 104
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Arjen, I use a system similar to what your describing to good effect. For general winter climbing I use a baselayer, warm long sleeve shirt (not quite fleece), and a schoeller wb400 softshell jacket and pants. I keep the primaloft parka in the bottom of the pack. Most days, I don't even use the parka.
This system has a good range of movement. I don't feel hampered by clothing bulk. I also like the fact that I don't sweat like crazy on the approaches or climbing.
I would use a gtx hardshell only when conditions warrant. The softshell isn't much match for torrential downpours, (sometimes I want my drytop if it's really rainy  ). Multi day mountains also require something that will keep you bone dry so your gear doesn't freeze.
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