Buy ropes that work as twins and doubles... most do.

j-

stymingersfink,

Well, although not all or even most of the half ropes currently made are certified also for use as twin ropes, there are certainly many that are. When you take that tone--that "um, no" tone--and you're so clearly wrong you're not really shown in the most flattering light. The Beal Joker, PMI Verglas and Fusion, The Monster 7.8, the Tendon 7.8 Master, 8.5 master, and 7.9 Ambition can all be used as both half and twin ropes. So...

I don't think your attitude fools many. The bottom line is you were wrong; in fact, there are half-ropes that are designed to be used as a twin ropes, and visa-versa.

o I am planning on getting a new set of ropes for this season. I do have a single rope now, but I wanted to get a set of doubles for leading on ice. I was looking at Blue Water's website, and they recomend their twin ropes, as opposed to their doubles for ice climbing.

So I was wondering what all of you favor for leading on ice, twins or doubles? Also any particular sets of ropes you have tried, and liked or disliked for any reason? I would like to stick with Blue Water or Sterling if possible, but am open for all suggestions.

Thanks in advance.

~Kevin

Buy ropes that work as twins and doubles... most do.

j-

Um, whatever.

Using half ropes as twins defeats the entire purpose of using half ropes, as twins are not nearly as accommodating to meandering routes, and clipping two half ropes to a single piece increases impact forces in the event of a fall... using a triple-rated rope like the joker as a twin is like---> joke's on you! --> at best, if you need the redundancy of an additional rope, clip it as a half-rope. OR, even better... just purchase the right set of half-ropes the first time. it's probably cheaper than a pair of jokers, and just as effective.

Gotta go with Sty here. In fact, the whole idea of twin ropes is really just stupid. Single rope failure is essentially nonexistent for all practical purposes, so if you're going to limit yourself to a single rope path, go with a single line.

If you're going up there with two ropes, get halfs. it will help mitigate rope drag issues, and won't give you the double impact force/greater equipment requirements (more biners) of twins.

Umm, how about, however small one feels, twins does have a safety margin over single rope.

It give you full length rappel.

For the same rope, twin configuration will likely have a longer rope life.

I don't ever recall one has to clip each strand to a separate biner with twins.

Oh, and 2 strands do not double the impact force (higher, yes).

I've put 6000ft of rock on my half/twin ropes.

I've only used in half configuration for 2 pieces on 1 pitch (by mistake actually, but it'd have been a legit place). I've also belayed partners with halfs, it always seemed like a cluster f&*k.

I think the edge cutting argument is a little light for twins - a loaded rope with a sharp edge, one or two strands it won't much matter if you whip onto it. I might favor a thicker rope at that point and one that is directed over another spot (double).

PT

Same safety margin a 9-bolt anchor has over a 7-bolt anchor.

No evidence for that whatsoever - in fact, I doubt it's true at all.

You don't have to clip any rope into any pro at all, but most people recognize that as pretty stupid as well.

Two ropes operating in close proximity are very prone to tangles and friction, not to mention running two ropes through a single biner makes tri-axial loading a realistic proposition! Let me guess...no one says you have to belay through the belay loop instead of the tie-ins!

Typically not double in the real world, no, because the ropes do not equally share the loading due to whatever micro-difference in position and rock/gear friction/angle of fall/etc happens to be there this time. But the *worst case* scenario on twin ropes is double impact force, whatever the impact force may be, speaking purely about the math.

unless, of course, if you get sketched 1/2 up a 2000 ft route cause your rope has a core shot.

Twins have higher UIAA fall rating (than the same rope tested as double, and the only reason the number of falls isn't close to more than twice is doubles are tested with lighter mass), that much is indisputable. If you don't whip on them, then there probably won't be much difference.

Which is why twins are used as identical pair with the same stretch property. Please demonstrate my "stupidity" by provide any actual testing or even manufacturer recommendation that each strand of twins needs to clip to a separate biner to be safe.

Speaking purely of math, you are an idiot. It neither in lab testing nor practically double the impact force, not even close.

I'm gonna get sketched on *any* route above 20 ft. if my rope has a core shot.

Exactly - most ropes are retired due to sheath wear and tear or loss of elasticity, not strength loss. UIAA falls are a very poor metric for durability - Sterling's Marathon ropes, for example, are "only" rated to 6 UIAA falls, yet due to the thicker sheath, seem to hold up to abuse longer.

As per Beal here:
http://www.bealplanet.com/...pe_corde&lang=us

It varies by situation, the primary concern being IMPACT FORCE (and, as already stated, in ice climbing, this is key).

The use of seperate carabiners is mainly espoused by the Long/Luebben school of rope use, and it's purpose is to distribute the increased impact force across more than one 'biner, but not over additional gear, so the nut (ice screw, etc.) better be bomber.

Also, as mentioned, it much reduces the chances of funky loading, friction, and tangles.

So again - you *could* clip em both through the same biner, but if you're going to bother, why not run a single line?

You must have trouble reading. Go back and read that section again - worst case scenario, you're looking at double. This never happens, just like lab-test factor two falls, because the lab is not the field and there are more factors than can be replicated in a test environment. Please don't get huffy if you can't multiply by 2 properly.

I think you might be missing something, here. I don't think anybody's saying twin-ropes are better than half-ropes. I think the issue, at least for me, is that a half-rope is more easily cut than a single rope, so when you're in a situation where your half-rope could be loaded over an edge in the event of a fall, it's nice to be able to use your ropes as twin-ropes to increase the cut-resistance of your total rope system, even if it's only just for one piece on a pitch. Also, if you go by the numbers that Beal projects on the sight you directed us to, if clipped as twins, the Beal ice line would still have an impact force of less than 8kn in the UIAA test fall. Granted, those ropes are pretty exceptional, but I point it out to show how much variability there is, here.

um, no.

Buy the doubles, do not use them as twins when climbing ice. Doubles and Twins are not inter-changeable in their useage techniques

8.1mm Beal Iceline

That's what I like. You'll figure out what you like, but only after dropping the coin and experiencing it for yourself for a season or two. It's the cost of an education.