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sky7high
Jan 10, 2008, 3:11 AM
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So just yesterday I stumbled upon the "improved sliding x" thread and learned that the cordalette doesn't work as it's supposed to. I learned about the equalette, but honestly, I didn't like it very much, so I decided to do some experimenting on my own. I stayed up 'till 3 in the morning trying different setups, and this is my best result so far. You basically start with a "craig short" rig, that is, a sliding x adjusted to incorporate 3 pieces instead of two, with NO limiter knots.
Next, you attach the middle strand to the masterpoint with a clove hitch and a quickdraw (or dedicated sling + carabiner(s))
This middle strand-masterpoint attachment must be LOOSE, in order for the equalization to take place. It works with any 15cm quickdraw, or with a carabiner (possibly locking) and a doubled 30cm runner.
This is what provides the limited extension, if one of the outer strands fails, the setup is going to extend until the quickdraw or runner tightens. If the middle strand fails, the setup is going to extend until the clove hitch reaches the masterpoint carabiner. This rig provides a true three-point equalization, in which the load is shared approximately evenly among the three pieces (friction and other factors play a part, of course). One of the best parts of this rig is the incredible angle range it has compared to the equalette with limiter knots, as long as the quickdraw remains loose, the setup is equalized. On my tests, this yielded nearly 180 degrees of equalizing range Here's a pic of the rig with force to one side (note how the side of the bed is at an angle)
Now, here's a pic of the anchor with a failure on one of the outside strands, the middle strand takes all of the force, with the other placement acting as a backup, much like if you blow the figure-eighted placement on a three point equalette.
Now, here's a pic of the rig with a failure on the middle strand, note how the rig extends until the clove reaches the masterpoint biner. The force is equalized between the two outer strands
A detail of the masterpoint when the middle strand fails:
Here's what happens when an outside strand and the middle strand both fail, there's BIG extension, because the failed outside strand is entirely absorbed by the strand that held, still, the knot in the middle strand gets caught on the masterpoint, so the extension is not as big as it would be without it.
Now for the discussion: Pro's - All three pieces share the load equally ALL the time, minimizing the chance that one fails - It's simple and easy to set up (IMO, very subjective) - You don't have to unclip the sling from the pro, tie limiter knots, and clip again - The masterpoint is created with ONE carabiner, not two. - the angle range for full equalization is pretty big, as I said, nearly 180 degrees. - good redundancy, you'd need to cut one of the outside strands, the middle strand, and the quickdraw for everything to fail - (your input is appreciated) Cons: - an extra quickdraw /carabiner with runner is needed - If two pieces pop, you're going to have lots of extension. - If one of the outside strands fail, the center piece will take all the force, with the other one acting merely as a backup. - (your input is appreciated) with all that in mind, I think this is a pretty good setup to know. I would think it works especially well with one bomber piece (middle) and two not-so-perfect pieces (sides). I would very much like to know what everyone (especially the experienced ones out there) thinks. I would also like to have an opinion from John Long, if he's still around. I will try this setup on the field next time I'm climbing trad. BTW: The knot attached to the quickdraw in the pics is not a clove hitch, this was a mistake. I was going to post this on the sliding x thread, but it's pretty old, so I decided to start fresh.
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majid_sabet
Jan 10, 2008, 3:34 AM
Post #2 of 33
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sky7high wrote: So just yesterday I stumbled upon the " improved sliding x" thread and learned that the cordalette doesn't work as it's supposed to. I learned about the equalette, but honestly, I didn't like it very much, so I decided to do some experimenting on my own. I stayed up 'till 3 in the morning trying different setups, and this is my best result so far. You basically start with a "craig short" rig, that is, a sliding x adjusted to incorporate 3 pieces instead of two, with NO limiter knots. Next, you attach the middle strand to the masterpoint with a clove hitch and a quickdraw (or dedicated sling + carabiner(s)) This middle strand-masterpoint attachment must be LOOSE, in order for the equalization to take place. It works with any 15cm quickdraw, or with a carabiner (possibly locking) and a doubled 30cm runner. This is what provides the limited extension, if one of the outer strands fails, the setup is going to extend until the quickdraw or runner tightens. If the middle strand fails, the setup is going to extend until the clove hitch reaches the masterpoint carabiner. This rig provides a true three-point equalization, in which the load is shared approximately evenly among the three pieces ( friction and other factors play a part, of course). One of the best parts of this rig is the incredible angle range it has compared to the equalette with limiter knots, as long as the quickdraw remains loose, the setup is equalized. On my tests, this yielded nearly 180 degrees of equalizing range Here's a pic of the rig with force to one side (note how the side of the bed is at an angle) Now, here's a pic of the anchor with a failure on one of the outside strands, the middle strand takes all of the force, with the other placement acting as a backup, much like if you blow the figure-eighted placement on a three point equalette. Now, here's a pic of the rig with a failure on the middle strand, note how the rig extends until the clove reaches the masterpoint biner. The force is equalized between the two outer strands A detail of the masterpoint when the middle strand fails: Here's what happens when an outside strand and the middle strand both fail, there's BIG extension, because the failed outside strand is entirely absorbed by the strand that held, still, the knot in the middle strand gets caught on the masterpoint, so the extension is not as big as it would be without it. Now for the discussion: Pro's - All three pieces share the load equally ALL the time, minimizing the chance that one fails - It's simple and easy to set up (IMO, very subjective) - You don't have to unclip the sling from the pro, tie limiter knots, and clip again - The masterpoint is created with ONE carabiner, not two. - the angle range for full equalization is pretty big, as I said, nearly 180 degrees. - good redundancy, you'd need to cut one of the outside strands, the middle strand, and the quickdraw for everything to fail - (your input is appreciated) Cons: - an extra quickdraw / carabiner with runner is needed - If two pieces pop, you're going to have lots of extension. - If one of the outside strands fail, the center piece will take all the force, with the other one acting merely as a backup. - (your input is appreciated) with all that in mind, I think this is a pretty good setup to know. I would think it works especially well with one bomber piece (middle) and two not-so-perfect pieces (sides). I would very much like to know what everyone (especially the experienced ones out there) thinks. I would also like to have an opinion from John Long, if he's still around. I will try this setup on the field next time I'm climbing trad. BTW: The knot attached to the quickdraw in the pics is not a clove hitch, this was a mistake. I was going to post this on the sliding x thread, but it's pretty old, so I decided to start fresh. you will DIE
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sky7high
Jan 10, 2008, 3:46 AM
Post #3 of 33
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well, there goes my hope for good responses.
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majid_sabet
Jan 10, 2008, 4:07 AM
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sky7high wrote: well, there goes my hope for good responses. Well shock loading is your enemy in anchor building and you got three legs which may cause shock load in event of single or double protection failure so what do you think you could do to reduce shock load?
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sky7high
Jan 10, 2008, 4:18 AM
Post #5 of 33
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did you read the whole thing J. Long posted about the myth of shock loading? Unless there has been any new data to say that a little bit of extension gives you a "shock" load, I'm willing to go with it.
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majid_sabet
Jan 10, 2008, 4:39 AM
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sky7high wrote: did you read the whole thing J. Long posted about the myth of shock loading? Unless there has been any new data to say that a little bit of extension gives you a "shock" load, I'm willing to go with it. I do not agree with every thing JL says or publishes. I know he is a knowable guy but this does not mean that you have to close you eyes like a blind man and fall in to a hole. You have to use common sense. Shock loading an anchor is easily doable . popping gear and loosing protection on a typical multi point anchor is nothing new. minimizing failures is what anchor building is all about. Any one can build an anchor but only good solid anchor survives during a major leader fall. You do not want to take short cuts on anchors and for sure, you do not want to build a CF anchors. Before you start building anchors you should ask yourself this; What am I using this anchor for? I forgot since you read looks then I am assuming you know that biner are design to take load on the axis line as shown in blue arrow. is your biner with this setup taking the load on axis line?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jan 10, 2008, 4:48 AM)
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moose_droppings
Jan 10, 2008, 4:47 AM
Post #7 of 33
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If either one of the outside legs go, like you said, its down to one. This makes the whole system have a backup of one, as opposed to two with a normal 3 legged anchor. I'm not real sure I'd like to have a small shock load go to just one leg, maybe its fine, but seems like the amount of shock load isn't clearly defined. Basically you've got a sliding W with the center leg backed up. I don't think I'd go with this since there are other rigs close to this with better redundancy. Some might complain about carrying extra gear and extra time. Seems simple enough to me, but also a little to simple for my safety. Keep trying though, maybe you can improve on it some more.
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shockabuku
Jan 10, 2008, 5:36 AM
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sky7high wrote: well, there goes my hope for good responses. That was a great response and if you didn't expect it - well, you'll know better next time. By the way, you apparently didn't read, or pretty much ignored, the part in the sliding x thread about the effects of friction between the strands on the master point biner. Also, I don't consider this system, which solely loads the center piece if an end fails, to be a very good equalizing anchor. If you think that one piece is good enough to hold the whole load, why are you bothering with an equalizing anchor anyway? Finally, did you read that whole thing in one day? Have you no life?
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sky7high
Jan 10, 2008, 7:30 AM
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Majid: first: I don't believe Long blindly, I believe the test results he got. Second: I would be using this anchor setup where loads are bound to come from weird angles. third: yes, the carabiner takes load in the correct direction, in that pic the biner isn't loaded. Moose: I'm curious about what's a "normal, three legged anchor" or the "other rigs close to this with better redundancy" I would very much appreciate it if you cleared this out, Like you (and shokaboku) said, the main drawback with this is that it's down to one strand if any one of the outside pieces blow. Thus, for this rig to properly hold you in every situation, one of the following must be true: a) the equalized three pieces must be strong enough to hold the load b) One of the pieces must be strong enough to take the whole load In comparison, for the equalette to hold you all the time, one of the following must be true a) two of the three pieces, equalized, must be strong enough to hold b) one of the three must be strong enough to take the whole load shokaboku: I read that part, but only lightly, I understood, that due to friction, true equalization will not be possible, but I must have overlooked something because the person who put forth this theory also proposed using the sliding W
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majid_sabet
Jan 10, 2008, 8:54 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: If either one of the outside legs go, like you said, its down to one. This makes the whole system have a backup of one, as opposed to two with a normal 3 legged anchor. I'm not real sure I'd like to have a small shock load go to just one leg, maybe its fine, but seems like the amount of shock load isn't clearly defined. Basically you've got a sliding W with the center leg backed up. I don't think I'd go with this since there are other rigs close to this with better redundancy. Some might complain about carrying extra gear and extra time. Seems simple enough to me, but also a little to simple for my safety. Keep trying though, maybe you can improve on it some more. 18 to 36 inches of sudden shock load at 185 lbs of weight x acceleration is a monster to land on a single piece of cam or a nut.
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sky7high
Jan 10, 2008, 9:11 AM
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OK, I' gave the whole deal some more thought, and read the thing Craig posted about friction thoroughly. Now, it may be that it's 3am once again and I'm being a complete idiot, but here's what I came up with. In this setup, because of friction, the loads will be 20% for the outer placements (which slip in order to "equalize") and 60% for the middle placement (which has a knot preventing it from slipping) this means that there is less possibility that the outer strands fail and leave you hanging on only one strand. However, since the middle placement still gets 60% of the load, why not tie an equalette instead? where you load two placements at any one time, one of them with 60% of the load. In an equalette, if the figure eighted strand fails, it leaves you hanging on only one piece, with another one for backup, and it also happens that this figure eighted strand gets 40%, which means it has the same possibility as any one of the two outer strands of my setup failing. Using this line of thought, my setup is not more or less safe than an equalette, so you're essentialy trading more gear for more angle range. crap, my head is all CFed from thinking about anchors too much, I hope people understand what I wrote above, although I doubt it. I'll try to fix it up later today. Edit: BTW majid and moose, the amount of extension if only one leg fails is OK, it's not even 5 inches. If two fail, however, it suddenly goes up to a lot more. Still, if you believe that it's only like falling a couple more feet on dynamic rope, as Craig Conally says, it's no big deal.
(This post was edited by sky7high on Jan 10, 2008, 9:15 AM)
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majid_sabet
Jan 10, 2008, 6:59 PM
Post #12 of 33
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sky7high wrote: OK, I' gave the whole deal some more thought, and read the thing Craig posted about friction thoroughly. Now, it may be that it's 3am once again and I'm being a complete idiot, but here's what I came up with. In this setup, because of friction, the loads will be 20% for the outer placements (which slip in order to "equalize") and 60% for the middle placement (which has a knot preventing it from slipping) this means that there is less possibility that the outer strands fail and leave you hanging on only one strand. However, since the middle placement still gets 60% of the load, why not tie an equalette instead? where you load two placements at any one time, one of them with 60% of the load. In an equalette, if the figure eighted strand fails, it leaves you hanging on only one piece, with another one for backup, and it also happens that this figure eighted strand gets 40%, which means it has the same possibility as any one of the two outer strands of my setup failing. Using this line of thought, my setup is not more or less safe than an equalette, so you're essentialy trading more gear for more angle range. crap, my head is all CFed from thinking about anchors too much, I hope people understand what I wrote above, although I doubt it. I'll try to fix it up later today. Edit: BTW majid and moose, the amount of extension if only one leg fails is OK, it's not even 5 inches. If two fail, however, it suddenly goes up to a lot more. Still, if you believe that it's only like falling a couple more feet on dynamic rope, as Craig Conally says, it's no big deal. In climbing, everything is a big deal and one small error will make you famous in the American Alpine Club ANAM book.
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j_ung
Jan 10, 2008, 8:05 PM
Post #13 of 33
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majid_sabet wrote: sky7high wrote: So just yesterday I stumbled upon the " improved sliding x" thread and learned that the cordalette doesn't work as it's supposed to. I learned about the equalette, but honestly, I didn't like it very much, so I decided to do some experimenting on my own. I stayed up 'till 3 in the morning trying different setups, and this is my best result so far. You basically start with a "craig short" rig, that is, a sliding x adjusted to incorporate 3 pieces instead of two, with NO limiter knots. Next, you attach the middle strand to the masterpoint with a clove hitch and a quickdraw (or dedicated sling + carabiner(s)) This middle strand-masterpoint attachment must be LOOSE, in order for the equalization to take place. It works with any 15cm quickdraw, or with a carabiner (possibly locking) and a doubled 30cm runner. This is what provides the limited extension, if one of the outer strands fails, the setup is going to extend until the quickdraw or runner tightens. If the middle strand fails, the setup is going to extend until the clove hitch reaches the masterpoint carabiner. This rig provides a true three-point equalization, in which the load is shared approximately evenly among the three pieces ( friction and other factors play a part, of course). One of the best parts of this rig is the incredible angle range it has compared to the equalette with limiter knots, as long as the quickdraw remains loose, the setup is equalized. On my tests, this yielded nearly 180 degrees of equalizing range Here's a pic of the rig with force to one side (note how the side of the bed is at an angle) Now, here's a pic of the anchor with a failure on one of the outside strands, the middle strand takes all of the force, with the other placement acting as a backup, much like if you blow the figure-eighted placement on a three point equalette. Now, here's a pic of the rig with a failure on the middle strand, note how the rig extends until the clove reaches the masterpoint biner. The force is equalized between the two outer strands A detail of the masterpoint when the middle strand fails: Here's what happens when an outside strand and the middle strand both fail, there's BIG extension, because the failed outside strand is entirely absorbed by the strand that held, still, the knot in the middle strand gets caught on the masterpoint, so the extension is not as big as it would be without it. Now for the discussion: Pro's - All three pieces share the load equally ALL the time, minimizing the chance that one fails - It's simple and easy to set up (IMO, very subjective) - You don't have to unclip the sling from the pro, tie limiter knots, and clip again - The masterpoint is created with ONE carabiner, not two. - the angle range for full equalization is pretty big, as I said, nearly 180 degrees. - good redundancy, you'd need to cut one of the outside strands, the middle strand, and the quickdraw for everything to fail - (your input is appreciated) Cons: - an extra quickdraw / carabiner with runner is needed - If two pieces pop, you're going to have lots of extension. - If one of the outside strands fail, the center piece will take all the force, with the other one acting merely as a backup. - (your input is appreciated) with all that in mind, I think this is a pretty good setup to know. I would think it works especially well with one bomber piece (middle) and two not-so-perfect pieces (sides). I would very much like to know what everyone (especially the experienced ones out there) thinks. I would also like to have an opinion from John Long, if he's still around. I will try this setup on the field next time I'm climbing trad. BTW: The knot attached to the quickdraw in the pics is not a clove hitch, this was a mistake. I was going to post this on the sliding x thread, but it's pretty old, so I decided to start fresh. you will DIE
  WTF, dood. This is a new low in weirdness, even for you.
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ja1484
Jan 10, 2008, 8:34 PM
Post #14 of 33
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Exactly what is it that you "don't like" about the equallette? For my $.o2, this rig looks like a fustercluck, with knots (specifically on the upper biner of the quickdraw) loading the carabiner far from the major axis (almost on the gate), and metal/metal carabiner loading. It also appears to take extra gear, meaning you have to carry more, and a longer setup time. I do not get it. It appears to be a step back from the simplicity of the equallette in every way. Edit: And who says you have to fig8 one leg of an equallette? You can clove hitch all 4 legs if you want to, giving it the versatility to cover anchors from a single piece (enormous tree) to 4 pieces (enormous gear nest). And why wouldn't an equallette stay equalized if one side fails? The other side should still equalize between the remaining placements.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Jan 10, 2008, 8:41 PM)
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majid_sabet
Jan 10, 2008, 8:45 PM
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sky7high By 12 pm tonight, you will have Senior RC posters Jay 512 and Dr. Rgold analyzing your anchor and you will be graded on this art work so get the other anchor up and running and post images ASAP before they see this one.
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dan2see
Jan 10, 2008, 8:59 PM
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Hey Sky, have you seen my rig: Dan2see's Three-point Equalette By my own analysis, this rig is fully redundant. If any one placement pops, you're still on the other two, and if any one sling gets sliced, you're still on the other one. The rig has limited extension -- if any one placement pops, you drop only half of the length of that leg. It's very easy to set-up, and while you're hanging in your belay, you can wiggle around all you like, it self-equalizes. I should add that there are no knots nor any other gear to hold it together. Those things would defeat the "equalette" action. Here's the picture:
I don't mean to pirate your post, Sky, but I kinda like my version.
(This post was edited by dan2see on Jan 10, 2008, 9:19 PM)
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shimanilami
Jan 10, 2008, 9:19 PM
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IMO, the whole "dynamic equalization" thing with "sliding X's" is a boondoggle that leads to CF's, shock loading, and possible catastrophe. And I have yet to see a situation where it was really necessary or where it would have helped matters at all. Admittedly, I have used a "sliding X" to equalize pieces, but it was more because I was too lazy to tie knots in the slings to get the lengths right. (And then I looked at the set-up and thought, "Wow. If that one sling blows, then we're all dead" and backed it up with quickdraws.)
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sky7high
Jan 10, 2008, 9:24 PM
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if you blow one side of the equalette, the remaining anchors act just like a cordalette. Once again, I'd like to remind everyone that the load on the carabiners IS along the major axis, IF you tie the clove hitch correctly (load strand closest to the spine) Anyhow, seems like nobody likes my anchor, for some very good reasons, If what majid said about jt512 and rgold is true, I can't wait to see what they have to say. Maybe it's just something to keep in the toolbox, maybe it's not even worth it.
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putputgolfer
Jan 10, 2008, 9:57 PM
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Why dont you just take what you have in the first picture and tie a big overhand knot with it. If you do it right it is all equalized with no extension and avoids that catastrophe waiting to happen. That way you would be able to see the knot and not be left wondering if your quickdraw-jumble was done properly.
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majid_sabet
Jan 10, 2008, 10:10 PM
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sky7high wrote: if you blow one side of the equalette, the remaining anchors act just like a cordalette. Once again, I'd like to remind everyone that the load on the carabiners IS along the major axis, IF you tie the clove hitch correctly (load strand closest to the spine) Anyhow, seems like nobody likes my anchor, for some very good reasons, If what majid said about jt512 and rgold is true, I can't wait to see what they have to say. Maybe it's just something to keep in the toolbox, maybe it's not even worth it. We do but not in this configuration .
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ja1484
Jan 10, 2008, 10:14 PM
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sky7high wrote: if you blow one side of the equalette, the remaining anchors act just like a cordalette. Once again, I'd like to remind everyone that the load on the carabiners IS along the major axis, IF you tie the clove hitch correctly (load strand closest to the spine) Anyhow, seems like nobody likes my anchor, for some very good reasons, If what majid said about jt512 and rgold is true, I can't wait to see what they have to say. Maybe it's just something to keep in the toolbox, maybe it's not even worth it. Well yeah....you know, if you blow all the placements of the equallette, it doesn't hold you at all. Solution: Set strong placements above all else. The rest of it comes next. I will ALWAYS take a cordellette on bomber placements over an equallette on sketchy placements. An equallette on bomber placements is even better. I'd also take a single bomber *passive* piece over two or three shaky pieces of any type. I'm sure this will cause the redundancy queens to crap their pants, but a properly placed piece of passive gear is pretty much going to fail only if the rock breaks, and gear shouldn't be in shitty rock unless you have no choice and something is better than nothing. Active gear, not so much. All it takes is a little moss in a crack or some wetness you don't notice to spit a cam out with hardly any force at all. Remember, friction is absolutely critical for cams to work. Look for cracks with rough texture that will fit between the cam's teeth. Make sure the crack is free of anything that could lubricate it, dust, moisture, plantlife, etc. This is optimal. Frankly, with anchors, equalization is lower on the list in most realworld situations. If placements are strong, the anchor will hold almost always, regardless of distribution of force. This is why cordellettes were used for decades without problem - they were attached to hardy gear. The equallette is nice because it adds better equalization to the cordellette's bag of tricks and doesn't really have any drawbacks at all that don't apply to the cordellette as well. That's progress. Adding new advantages along with new disadvantages is just treading water.
putputgolfer wrote: Why dont you just take what you have in the first picture and tie a big overhand knot with it. If you do it right it is all equalized with no extension and avoids that catastrophe waiting to happen. That way you would be able to see the knot and not be left wondering if your quickdraw-jumble was done properly. Because equalization occurs in this case only if the climber is directly, and I mean plumline, below the anchor. If there's even a five foot traverse, most of the force, if not all, will be on one piece. Hence why the equallette was coined.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Jan 10, 2008, 10:16 PM)
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sky7high
Jan 10, 2008, 11:27 PM
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ja1484 wrote: If you blow all the placements of an equalette it doesn't hold you at all I agree with everything you say, except the point you're trying to bring across with this sentence. By "blowing one side of the equalette" I meant that, in a THREE placement equalette, you only have to blow ONE placement (the one without clove hitches in it) to make the whole system act just like a cordelette and put the entire load on only one strand. with this system, the force that you put on the placements that leave you hanging on one strand is 20% of the total, as opposed to 40% in an equalette.
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ja1484
Jan 10, 2008, 11:51 PM
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sky7high wrote: ja1484 wrote: If you blow all the placements of an equalette it doesn't hold you at all I agree with everything you say, except the point you're trying to bring across with this sentence. By "blowing one side of the equalette" I meant that, in a THREE placement equalette, you only have to blow ONE placement (the one without clove hitches in it) to make the whole system act just like a cordelette and put the entire load on only one strand. with this system, the force that you put on the placements that leave you hanging on one strand is 20% of the total, as opposed to 40% in an equalette. Well yeah, but all rigging systems are sub-par when only partially implemented as opposed to fully prepared in a proper way.
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shockabuku
Jan 10, 2008, 11:53 PM
Post #24 of 33
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Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
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You should read the Improved sliding x thread and get up to speed before you "contribute" any more.
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shockabuku
Jan 11, 2008, 12:04 AM
Post #25 of 33
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Registered: May 20, 2006
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ja1484 wrote: Active gear, not so much. All it takes is a little moss in a crack or some wetness you don't notice to spit a cam out with hardly any force at all. Remember, friction is absolutely critical for cams to work. Look for cracks with rough texture that will fit between the cam's teeth. Make sure the crack is free of anything that could lubricate it, dust, moisture, plantlife, etc. This is optimal. Do you find that clean, wet rock makes that much difference with a cam? I try to avoid the wet days though I've climbed in a couple of them. I haven't really noticed, at least on the type of rock I've climbed in wet weather, that it makes much difference but then I haven't taken a fall on a wet day either. Wet/slimy rock I find concerning however.
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