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snoopy138
Dec 24, 2007, 4:47 AM
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ptftw!
whoo!
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spikeddem
Dec 24, 2007, 9:37 AM
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Pretty sure the reason for most gyms requiring a 5.9 (TR) and higher minimum is because usually gyms don't offer climbs below 5.9 for lead. If a 5.8'er learns to lead, then we have a climber with ants in his/her pants.
Now he/she is pushing their climbing abilities AND their technical expertise.
It's not necessarily a bad thing. Learning to fall is definitely important, but between the first and the second clip is a poor time to learn the route is way over your head.
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oldsalt
Dec 24, 2007, 8:23 PM
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spikeddem wrote: Pretty sure the reason for most gyms requiring a 5.9 (TR) and higher minimum is because usually gyms don't offer climbs below 5.9 for lead. If a 5.8'er learns to lead, then we have a climber with ants in his/her pants. Now he/she is pushing their climbing abilities AND their technical expertise.
Now explain how leading skills relate to 5.9 climbing.
How do 5.4 - 5.8 routes get led? Is there an ethic requiring that a 5.7 climber may not lead a 5.6 climb?
If you agree that only climbers comfortable at or above 5.9 should be leading, explain the connection.
I have never done a 5.9 TR clean, but I have let many single and multi-pitch routes up to 5.6. Am I fooling myself that I am having fun and being safe?
Make a good point, somebody!
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spikeddem
Dec 24, 2007, 11:24 PM
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oldsalt wrote: spikeddem wrote: Pretty sure the reason for most gyms requiring a 5.9 (TR) and higher minimum is because usually gyms don't offer climbs below 5.9 for lead. If a 5.8'er learns to lead, then we have a climber with ants in his/her pants. Now he/she is pushing their climbing abilities AND their technical expertise. You are half-way there...
Only because you cut out half my statement.
In reply to: Now explain how leading skills relate to 5.9 climbing.
I can't. I can't because there is no direct causation between leading skills and climbing ability.
In reply to: How do 5.4 - 5.8 routes get led?
The same way 5.14s get led.
In reply to: Is there an ethic requiring that a 5.7 climber may not lead a 5.6 climb?
Nope. If you are getting this out of my previous post, then I apologize because I may not have been clear enough.
In reply to: If you agree that only climbers comfortable at or above 5.9 should be leading, explain the connection.
I feel that a new leader should not be leading above their TR level. If one is outside, and they have 5.6-5.8 climbs they are comfortable on, by all means, go ahead and lead!
In reply to: I have never done a 5.9 TR clean, but I have let many single and multi-pitch routes up to 5.6. Am I fooling myself that I am having fun and being safe?
Nope, not at all. Odds are you have become comfortable leading, so I would say you should shoot for even harder climbs now.
In reply to: Make a good point, somebody!
Let me know if you have any other points.
The important part of this is that gyms rarely set lead climbs below 5.9 I think it is poor practice to a 5.8 climber learning to lead on a 5.9. A 5.8 climber should learn to lead on a 5.6 or 5.7 It just so happens there are no such lead routes indoors.
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lofstromc
Dec 25, 2007, 2:08 AM
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Do you have a car? Reason being that if you want to sport climb at the levels you mentioned you will need to drive to the New River Gorge to have enough climbs to pick from.
The handfull of climbs for you at Franklin will loose their novelty soon.
If you want, you can climb with me sometime.
(This post was edited by lofstromc on Dec 25, 2007, 2:23 AM)
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adrenaline_climber
Dec 25, 2007, 6:07 AM
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Lead climbing is MUCH harder then TR if anyone has led here... which most have i think then you all know this. So... even being able to TR a 5.9 its a different story to lead a 5.9. Mostly becuase its more of a physical challange to hang or sometimes lock off long enough to clip, in which case if your not familiar, could take in the area or 4 seconds or more is a lot of time to chill on a hold which you wouldnt do on TR. Also if your not climbing 5.9 chances are very good that you havnt been climbing long or a lot. either way, Its better to have more experience on the rock while all you have to think about is moving up the wall. On lead you have to worry about back-clips and z-clips and when on an overhang your foot placement around the rope as not to fall upside down potentially hitting their head on the wall hard. those are just a few reasons that most gyms do not offer lead climbing before you are 5.9 competant. In my opinion at that point you shouldnt feel a strong need to climb on lead becuase TR still offers soo many possiblities for the novice climber as well as the fact that they ahve just gotten into the sport. You dont start varsity in school sports becuase you arent ready. is the same not appropriate for climbing as well?
spikeddem: Make a good point, somebody!
Those are many good points if you are wise enough to hear them. The most importnant thing in climbing though is to have fun. if you want to endanger yourself or others by allowing them to do things that they are not comfortable with then thats on your concious and not mine :)
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saxfiend
Dec 25, 2007, 4:33 PM
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adrenaline_climber wrote: Lead climbing is MUCH harder then TR if anyone has led here... which most have i think then you all know this. So... even being able to TR a 5.9 its a different story to lead a 5.9.
Apart from the most basic movement involved in climbing, toproping in no way prepares you for leading, which involves a whole new set of skills. As you pointed out in your post, you're not just climbing anymore; you're also dealing with hanging out long enough to clip, clipping correctly, avoiding the leg behind the rope, etc.
It seems far more sensible to learn these new skills on a route that's so easy and/or juggy that you don't really need to worry about falling. By the time the new leader gets on 5.9 and harder routes, he or she has all this new stuff internalized.
JL
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adrenaline_climber
Dec 25, 2007, 8:27 PM
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Where are you going to find sub 5.8 or 5.9 leads in a gym or even outdoors for that matter? Theres not any bolted routes below 5.9 that ive seen and ive climbed many places. As well in gyms its not smart for gyms to set sub 5.9 lead routes becuase nobody will get on them. By the point that people should be learning to lead 5.9 should be juggy and huge and not much of a problem... thus they start lead routes at 5.9 becuase its the step up from a ladder climb but not technical enough to trip up anybody that is even 10a confident.
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saxfiend
Dec 25, 2007, 10:05 PM
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adrenaline_climber wrote: Theres not any bolted routes below 5.9 that ive seen and ive climbed many places.
adrenaline_climber wrote: As well in gyms its not smart for gyms to set sub 5.9 lead routes becuase nobody will get on them.
I don't know why it's so hard to understand the idea that when you're learning a new skill, you start off on something easy and work your way up. Nobody starts off toproping 5.9 or above, so it's ridiculous to require that they start leading at that level.
JL
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adrenaline_climber
Dec 25, 2007, 10:25 PM
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The whole idea is that when youve been climbing long enough that you can competently climb a 5.9 without a problem it shows you have enough experience on the rocks not to worry about the motion or the height or anything that you would when starting off on a TR so when you hop on lead you only worry about the new techniques of lead climbing. The thought is generally that if you cant learn to lead because a 5.9 is too difficult then you shouldnt be leading in the first place. that is what the gyms are saying its not difficult to understand. Once your comfortable enough on 5.9 to do it many times over and over and without problem youre ready to start leading. Most people walk into gyms and can already climb a 5.8. does that mean that they are ready to lead? no becuase they are not comfortable with the idea of climbing in the first place and the usual 5.9 minimum level is a safeguard to try and prevent people from getting sketched out more then they should becuase they still aren't comfortable on TR's. Its not to be mean but ive seen my share of people, while working at a gym for 2 years, to try and lead when they cant even climb well enough to know not to lock off to clip. Thus they should TR some more to get enough technique to know that you use straight arms or that you can even use your legs. And it makes our job easier becuase we know that people flailing around on the 5.9 leads are either not ready or not informed and thus we can teach them and not let them doing stupidass things like try to lead when they have only TR'ed a few times before and dont know the rules of the game as of thus far.
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saxfiend
Dec 25, 2007, 10:48 PM
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adrenaline_climber wrote: The thought is generally that if you cant learn to lead because a 5.9 is too difficult then you shouldnt be leading in the first place. that is what the gyms are saying its not difficult to understand.
I see from your profile that you're a 5.11d sport leader. So how come you're only leading 5.8 trad? Because trad is a whole new ball game, that's why. Just like sport leading is a whole different ball game compared with toproping.
JL
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CaptainPolution
Dec 25, 2007, 11:10 PM
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the gym I work at requires the person to lead 5.10 before taking a class. People who climb 5.8 in the gym honestly have no idea what they are doing. 5.10 at my gym is close to 9's. you need to learn to crawl before you walk and understand climbing before you lead. thats the way it is, deal with it.
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saxfiend
Dec 25, 2007, 11:15 PM
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CaptainPolution wrote: thats the way it is, deal with it. saxfiend wrote: Fortunately, not all gyms have this unreasonable attitude. |
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CaptainPolution
Dec 25, 2007, 11:46 PM
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saxfiend wrote: CaptainPolution wrote: thats the way it is, deal with it. saxfiend wrote: Fortunately, not all gyms have this unreasonable attitude.
how is that unreasonable?
what the point of teaching someone to lead if they arent even competent climbers? by competent I mean 5.8 is pretty damn easy, like a ladder. why add another thing to learn to someone who still has a lot of basics to learn? It's setting them up for failure which in turn will make them not like the sport.
on second thought, go ahead and teach 5.8 climbers to lead so they quit the sport and leave more stuff for others to climb
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adrenaline_climber
Dec 26, 2007, 12:38 AM
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exactly the point ive been saying like 5 times now. neways im done with this thread ppl just want to bitch around here.
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CaptainPolution
Dec 26, 2007, 12:45 AM
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adrenaline_climber wrote: exactly the point ive been saying like 5 times now. neways im done with this thread ppl just want to bitch around here.
it's more fun to bitch plus we are geniuses
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roseraie
Dec 26, 2007, 1:40 AM
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CaptainPolution wrote: saxfiend wrote: CaptainPolution wrote: thats the way it is, deal with it. saxfiend wrote: Fortunately, not all gyms have this unreasonable attitude. how is that unreasonable? what the point of teaching someone to lead if they arent even competent climbers? by competent I mean 5.8 is pretty damn easy, like a ladder. why add another thing to learn to someone who still has a lot of basics to learn? It's setting them up for failure which in turn will make them not like the sport. on second thought, go ahead and teach 5.8 climbers to lead so they quit the sport and leave more stuff for others to climb
I see from your profile that you've onsighted Bear's Reach twice. Was it like a ladder?
I think, Captain Pollution, that what you're failing to grasp is that physical climbing ability in a gym does not always translate to whether or not the person is qualified to lead. There are plenty of badass old alpine climbers who are not currently capable of overhanging gym 5.9.
I'm getting bored of this thread. Someone make a NEW argument!
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CaptainPolution
Dec 26, 2007, 1:57 AM
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roseraie wrote: CaptainPolution wrote: saxfiend wrote: CaptainPolution wrote: thats the way it is, deal with it. saxfiend wrote: Fortunately, not all gyms have this unreasonable attitude. how is that unreasonable? what the point of teaching someone to lead if they arent even competent climbers? by competent I mean 5.8 is pretty damn easy, like a ladder. why add another thing to learn to someone who still has a lot of basics to learn? It's setting them up for failure which in turn will make them not like the sport. on second thought, go ahead and teach 5.8 climbers to lead so they quit the sport and leave more stuff for others to climb I see from your profile that you've onsighted Bear's Reach twice. Was it like a ladder? I think, Captain Pollution, that what you're failing to grasp is that physical climbing ability in a gym does not always translate to whether or not the person is qualified to lead. There are plenty of badass old alpine climbers who are not currently capable of overhanging gym 5.9. I'm getting bored of this thread. Someone make a NEW argument!
sorry I meant to say 5.8 gym not outside. im basing the lead learning on gym climbing. im way too lazy to even write anything more
oh and bears reach SUCKS by the way. worst route I have ever climbed, totally different than a sport route since its on gear, go figure. bears reach has nothing to do with sport climbing and yes it was like a ladder, a windy ladder with all of your pro behind flakes. super fun, not.
its not the grade you can climb its the competency of the climber. I was trying to say that it is going to be harder to lead if you dont have the fundamentals down. I hate seeing people learning outside and seeing the extreme danger they could be in. but whatever I dont care, I dont climb with people who cant lead anyways.
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saxfiend
Dec 26, 2007, 4:48 AM
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roseraie wrote: I see from your profile that you've onsighted Bear's Reach twice. Was it like a ladder?
JL
CaptainPolution wrote: [a climbing gym is] a shitty place to work. too many N00BS who think they are the shit but are big vagina's in the real |
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oldsalt
Dec 26, 2007, 4:57 AM
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CaptainPolution wrote: its not the grade you can climb its the competency of the climber.
Thank you!
You said it, and maybe don't realize it. Sax understands and a few others above.
The idea that grade translates to competency is bull sh*t!
Competency = safe rope management, belaying skills, anchor building, etc. It means doing everything the right way, every time. It comes from experience, not difficulty level.
This thread has drawn some interesting responses, even if I disagree with some of them. It is relevent because the original misunderstanding still exists.
Only competent climbers should lead, and I know climbers who can TR 5.10 who are not competent to lead at any grade.
I have caught my partner on some awesome falls at high grades at or near his limit, and miles beyond my limit. I am a safe lead belayer because I am a safe lead climber at my own level, and I understand first hand what is happening and why.
It makes no sense to deny competent climbers the access to leading just because they don't climb 5.9 or higher. I'm not sure that any opinions have actually changed due to these exchanges, but I was hoping that some would.
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spikeddem
Dec 26, 2007, 9:15 AM
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oldsalt wrote: It makes no sense to deny competent climbers the access to leading just because they don't climb 5.9 or higher. I'm not sure that any opinions have actually changed due to these exchanges, but I was hoping that some would.
$$$$$$$$$$
Outdoors: Bolts+Time.
Indoors: Paid employees for route setting.
Makes sense to me. Is it fair? Well, that's a different question.
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CaptainPolution
Dec 26, 2007, 11:59 PM
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saxfiend wrote: roseraie wrote: I see from your profile that you've onsighted Bear's Reach twice. Was it like a ladder? Heh, watching the hard dudes who work in climbing gyms get out on real rock can be very entertaining. Too bad it doesn't happen very often. JL CaptainPolution wrote: [a climbing gym is] a shitty place to work. too many N00BS who think they are the shit but are big vagina's in the real
LOL at the fact that most people who work in climbing gym never touch real rock just plastic, EWWWW!
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adrenaline_climber
Dec 27, 2007, 12:23 PM
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i get out every weekend tnx. but i do agree most ppl i work with dun even climb in gyms nemore cuz they r dumb. I climb in the gym to train and becuase its still climbing. when you think about it climbing is climbing whether its trees or rocks or plastic ill probably enjoy it ^^
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saxfiend
Dec 30, 2007, 9:49 PM
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Well, the weather was crappy for outdoor climbing yesterday, so a friend and I decided to check out your climbing gym. It's really a nice facility with a lot of variety.
I have to include the quote below for sheer irony:
adrenaline_climber wrote: Where are you going to find sub 5.8 or 5.9 leads in a gym or even outdoors for that matter? Theres not any bolted routes below 5.9 that ive seen and ive climbed many places. As well in gyms its not smart for gyms to set sub 5.9 lead routes becuase nobody will get on them.
This makes me wonder if you work at the same Adrenaline gym as the one I went to. There were a bunch of 5.8 and 5.9 lead routes there, and they were lots of fun (I believe our warm-up lead was a 5.7). Being the pathetic geezer that I am, the best I could manage was a 5.10a, but I did lead it clean.
Strangely enough, no one asked how hard my friend and I climb when we checked out a lead rope. We didn't even have to take a lead test.
It was nice to find that Adrenaline was not nearly as uptight as I would have assumed from the above post. It was a great change of pace from my regular gym too.
JL
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jgloporto
Jan 11, 2008, 4:38 PM
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[quote "dc_climber23"]I've been toproping for about a year and am loving it, although I really only get to go outdoors about once every two weeks. I'm currently climbing in the Great Falls area of Northern VA/ DC, but am interested in getting into sport.
How good does one need to be to start sport? I would say I climb comfortably about a 5.8, maybe a 5.9 on a good day.
Is that too low grade to get into sport climbing? I'm not trying to hurt myself here!
Thanks for the help[/quote]
You should be able to lead 11 sport routes before you should start sport climbing. I just did the other night so now I'm ready.
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