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caughtinside
Jan 31, 2008, 9:48 PM
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and ptftw!!
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antiqued
Jan 31, 2008, 10:49 PM
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caughtinside wrote: csproul wrote: Many people don't really consider Stone Mtn to be sport climbing. Just because it is bolted doesn't make it sport. Bingo. A 150' pitch with 4 or 5 bolts is not, and never has been, a sport climb.
There are NO pitches on the S Face of Stone with 4 or more lead bolts.
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majid_sabet
Jan 31, 2008, 10:59 PM
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bigfatrock wrote: I have only recently started getting into trad, so far I have only followed on a hand full of routes/pitches. I was wondering if it's safe to run backwards to catch a big fall like I do in sport climbing or would that risk pulling out the gear? I am assuming if it's really well placed it won't be an issue, but I was thinking if there was a stopper placed that could take downward force but not outward from the rope being pulled back. What are you guys' thoughts on that?
belayer has to keep the rope in-line with falling climber to use the rope as a shock absorber. Pulling yourself away from the last piece while belaying will create a directional pull which may apply up to 1.5 x of the belay forces in to last piece. just something to think about.
[url=http://www.freeimagehosting.net/]
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trenchdigger
Jan 31, 2008, 11:13 PM
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antiqued wrote: caughtinside wrote: csproul wrote: Many people don't really consider Stone Mtn to be sport climbing. Just because it is bolted doesn't make it sport. Bingo. A 150' pitch with 4 or 5 bolts is not, and never has been, a sport climb. There are NO pitches on the S Face of Stone with 4 or more lead bolts.
He was counting the anchor bolts too, I think 
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trenchdigger
Jan 31, 2008, 11:17 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: bigfatrock wrote: I have only recently started getting into trad, so far I have only followed on a hand full of routes/pitches. I was wondering if it's safe to run backwards to catch a big fall like I do in sport climbing or would that risk pulling out the gear? I am assuming if it's really well placed it won't be an issue, but I was thinking if there was a stopper placed that could take downward force but not outward from the rope being pulled back. What are you guys' thoughts on that? belayer has to keep the rope in-line with falling climber to use the rope as a shock absorber. Pulling yourself away from the last piece while belaying will create a directional pull which may apply up to 1.5 x of the belay forces in to last piece. just something to think about. [url=http://www.freeimagehosting.net/][img]http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ef21d2d06c.jpg[/img]
By "last piece" do you mean the highest piece or the belayer's directional? 1.5x what force? 1.5x the force without the directional? I think I need some red and green arrows...
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majid_sabet
Jan 31, 2008, 11:38 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bigfatrock wrote: I have only recently started getting into trad, so far I have only followed on a hand full of routes/pitches. I was wondering if it's safe to run backwards to catch a big fall like I do in sport climbing or would that risk pulling out the gear? I am assuming if it's really well placed it won't be an issue, but I was thinking if there was a stopper placed that could take downward force but not outward from the rope being pulled back. What are you guys' thoughts on that? belayer has to keep the rope in-line with falling climber to use the rope as a shock absorber. Pulling yourself away from the last piece while belaying will create a directional pull which may apply up to 1.5 x of the belay forces in to last piece. just something to think about. [url=http://www.freeimagehosting.net/][img]http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ef21d2d06c.jpg[/img] By "last piece" do you mean the highest piece or the belayer's directional? 1.5x what force? 1.5x the force without the directional? I think I need some red and green arrows...
I am going to put the red arrow on your head and hammer it down with my green hammer . If the belayer is in-line with rope then falling forces will be transferred to his belay device. once he pulls himself away from the anchor, he will creates a direction pull as shown in the image. I am sure that last piece ( next to belayer) will take some of the impact but you do the math and come up with the right figure professor.
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moment
Feb 1, 2008, 12:04 AM
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trenchdigger
Feb 1, 2008, 12:04 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bigfatrock wrote: I have only recently started getting into trad, so far I have only followed on a hand full of routes/pitches. I was wondering if it's safe to run backwards to catch a big fall like I do in sport climbing or would that risk pulling out the gear? I am assuming if it's really well placed it won't be an issue, but I was thinking if there was a stopper placed that could take downward force but not outward from the rope being pulled back. What are you guys' thoughts on that? belayer has to keep the rope in-line with falling climber to use the rope as a shock absorber. Pulling yourself away from the last piece while belaying will create a directional pull which may apply up to 1.5 x of the belay forces in to last piece. just something to think about. [url=http://www.freeimagehosting.net/][img]http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ef21d2d06c.jpg[/img] By "last piece" do you mean the highest piece or the belayer's directional? 1.5x what force? 1.5x the force without the directional? I think I need some red and green arrows... I am going to put the red arrow on your head and hammer it down with my green hammer . If the belayer is in-line with rope then falling forces will be transferred to his belay device. once he pulls himself away from the anchor, he will creates a direction pull as shown in the image. I am sure that last piece ( next to belayer) will take some of the impact but you do the math and come up with the right figure professor.
Undoubtably it will take some of the load. But I think you pulled the number out of your ass.
The load on that lowest, directional piece will be MUCH less than the load on the top piece in the system (the one the climber is falling on). Of greater concern is ensuring the change of direction piece is placed with the expected diection of pull (up and out) in mind.
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trenchdigger
Feb 1, 2008, 12:09 AM
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moment wrote: Running back increases the fall factor (and therefore the total impact force as well) So only in case of potential grounding or decking (this holds regardless of whether the top piece of protection is a solid bolt or an RP, since the situations are analogous, only with one piece being stronger than the other)
How do you figure? Think about this. It makes no sense at all.
Fall factor = fall length/length of rope between belayer & climber
By running, you reduce the numerator and do not change the denominator (neglecting friction through the redirect, of course). Even considering friction, the impact force is still reduced over a stationary belayer.
Don't get me wrong... I'm not encouraging a "running" belay. I'm just saying this is not a valid reason not to do it.
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majid_sabet
Feb 1, 2008, 12:24 AM
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trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bigfatrock wrote: I have only recently started getting into trad, so far I have only followed on a hand full of routes/pitches. I was wondering if it's safe to run backwards to catch a big fall like I do in sport climbing or would that risk pulling out the gear? I am assuming if it's really well placed it won't be an issue, but I was thinking if there was a stopper placed that could take downward force but not outward from the rope being pulled back. What are you guys' thoughts on that? belayer has to keep the rope in-line with falling climber to use the rope as a shock absorber. Pulling yourself away from the last piece while belaying will create a directional pull which may apply up to 1.5 x of the belay forces in to last piece. just something to think about. [url=http://www.freeimagehosting.net/][img]http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ef21d2d06c.jpg[/img] By "last piece" do you mean the highest piece or the belayer's directional? 1.5x what force? 1.5x the force without the directional? I think I need some red and green arrows... I am going to put the red arrow on your head and hammer it down with my green hammer . If the belayer is in-line with rope then falling forces will be transferred to his belay device. once he pulls himself away from the anchor, he will creates a direction pull as shown in the image. I am sure that last piece ( next to belayer) will take some of the impact but you do the math and come up with the right figure professor. Undoubtably it will take some of the load. But I think you pulled the number out of your ass. The load on that lowest, directional piece will be MUCH less than the load on the top piece in the system (the one the climber is falling on). Of greater concern is ensuring the change of direction piece is placed with the expected diection of pull (up and out) in mind.
no shi*, I just learned something new but who was talking about the top piece professor?
The last piece next to belayer will get hit by some amount of impact due to chage of direction. Got it ?
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trenchdigger
Feb 1, 2008, 1:04 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: no shi*, I just learned something new but who was talking about the top piece professor? The last piece next to belayer will get hit by some amount of impact due to chage of direction. Got it ?
Yah, BFD. The load will be so small it won't matter, so long as it's oriented properly.
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yokese
Feb 1, 2008, 1:20 AM
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Tdigger.... arguing with him?... you know better than that.
Anyways, in regard to:
In reply to: By running, you reduce the numerator and do not change the denominator (neglecting friction through the redirect, of course). Even considering friction, the impact force is still reduced over a stationary belayer.
You reduce the fall factor, but possibly not the impact force because the rope has to absorb not only the energy to decelerate the climber but also to decelerate the belayer who is running in opposite direction.... now, that's a tricky calculation for me.
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coastal_climber
Feb 1, 2008, 1:47 AM
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Just a comment/question, but how far do you think you can run once the climber starts to fall? 5, 10, 15ft?
You don't exactly have a lot of time to move, it happens so quick, one second they are climbing, the next they are hanging at the end of the rope.
>Cam
(This post was edited by coastal_climber on Feb 1, 2008, 1:47 AM)
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erick
Feb 1, 2008, 2:24 AM
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bigfatrock wrote: I have only recently started getting into trad...
Likewise. Even though i thoroughly suck (and am very inexperienced), i'm also thoroughly addicted.
bigfatrock wrote: I was wondering if it's safe to run backwards to catch a big fall like I do in sport climbing or would that risk pulling out the gear? ... What are you guys' thoughts on that?
I took a trad course last year and our guide said to always try to make the first piece multidirectional. After reading through this thread, now i can really see why it's very important to have that first piece multidirectional. i've never seen a line of gear zipper out, and i sure as hell want to do everything i can to avoid seeing it.
like reg said, nuts in opposition, or a cam for a first piece would probably be a very good idea whenever possible.
for myself, i would definitely make a run for it to take in slack if a climber was going to deck. i don't think anyone can argue that. At that point your options are basically a standing like a dumb ass belayer watching your climber make a guaranteed ground fall, or make a run for it and hope it doesn't zipper. worst case scenario: he still grounds. at least you would have tried to prevent it instead of standing there completely unprepared.
in the grey area of being uncertain whether they will deck if they fall, i think it would be helpful to hear from the climber how they feel about that first piece right after they clip it. is it bomber? is it multidirectional? how will it respond to outward force? i think having lots of communication with the leader about the quality of their placements as they climb is very helpful while belaying.
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JohnCook
Feb 1, 2008, 2:35 AM
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Did all that clarify anything?
I'm sure some people on this site post up a load of bollocks just to start an argument,and all they end up doing is confusing people who ask a genuine question.
I'm getting bored with the petty back-biting and personal infighting. If these people want this kind of forum they should do some research and find a different place.
In the meantime, climb with some trad leaders who will be putting their lives in your hands after they have told you what to do. Thats commitment! I volunteer! See ya soon!
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erick
Feb 1, 2008, 2:39 AM
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coastal_climber wrote: Just a comment/question, but how far do you think you can run once the climber starts to fall? 5, 10, 15ft? You don't exactly have a lot of time to move, it happens so quick, one second they are climbing, the next they are hanging at the end of the rope. >Cam
i saw a video of a dude come within a couple feet to decking, and the only reason he didn't is because the belayer (who you could see in the video) BOLTED away as soon as the climber started falling. he probably got about 6-10 feet of slack pulled in. saved the guy from becoming a mangled mess.
also, you often know when your climber is about to fall, so it can be anticipated and reaction time reduced.
What if you were belaying from a 5-10 foot high ledge. would you jump back off the ledge to prevent your climber from decking?
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stymingersfink
Feb 1, 2008, 2:44 AM
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erick wrote: like reg said, nuts in opposition, or a cam for a first piece would probably be a very good idea whenever possible.
not every cam placement is multi-directional, so don't place a cam and feel that everything's gonna be o.k..... k?
nuts in opposition would probably be the most bomber choice when relying on protection. Even better would be to follow the old-school mantra "The Leader Does Not Fall"
...not always possible, but when you get on a line that you're consciously aware of the probability of violating this "guidline", it's always a good idea to make sure the deck is stacked in your favor.
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majid_sabet
Feb 1, 2008, 4:02 AM
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[URL=http://imageshack.us]
[URL=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=502&i=screenhunter2nr2.png]
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bigfatrock
Feb 1, 2008, 4:23 AM
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JohnCook wrote: Did all that clarify anything? I'm sure some people on this site post up a load of bollocks just to start an argument,and all they end up doing is confusing people who ask a genuine question. I'm getting bored with the petty back-biting and personal infighting. If these people want this kind of forum they should do some research and find a different place. In the meantime, climb with some trad leaders who will be putting their lives in your hands after they have told you what to do. Thats commitment! I volunteer! See ya soon!
Ahh, clear as mud man. I had no idea such a simple question would have so many answers.
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billl7
Feb 1, 2008, 4:42 AM
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bigfatrock wrote: JohnCook wrote: Did all that clarify anything? I'm sure some people on this site post up a load of bollocks just to start an argument,and all they end up doing is confusing people who ask a genuine question. I'm getting bored with the petty back-biting and personal infighting. If these people want this kind of forum they should do some research and find a different place. In the meantime, climb with some trad leaders who will be putting their lives in your hands after they have told you what to do. Thats commitment! I volunteer! See ya soon! Ahh, clear as mud man. I had no idea such a simple question would have so many answers. 
Bill L
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chilli
Feb 1, 2008, 12:18 PM
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caughtinside wrote: csproul wrote: chilli wrote: i don't know why, but i'm getting kind of frustrated by everyone continuing to say that it's a sin to run backwards when belaying to catch a fall on a sport route. there ARE SOME conditions under which (stone mountain example) Many people don't really consider Stone Mtn to be sport climbing. Just because it is bolted doesn't make it sport. Bingo. A 150' pitch with 4 or 5 bolts is not, and never has been, a sport climb.
as i said earlier, i don't consider it "sport" either, but being bolted doesn't that technically take it out of the realm of trad (for those routes for which you're using bolts)? waitaminute. i'm just nit-picking/playing around with words at this point...
perhaps it's better if i just say that there are useful applications for running belays in bolted climbs, but not in what we would consider "true sport climbing."
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mturner
Feb 1, 2008, 3:26 PM
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So what about just standing further away? Does the outward angle placed on the rope increase the fall factor at all?
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climbingaggie03
Feb 1, 2008, 3:37 PM
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IMO if it was bolted by hand on lead, then it's trad. We have a crag in TX that has some run out slabs that were bolted on lead with a hand drill. It's definitely not sport, and it was put up when there was no sport climbing, so I think it's fine to call it trad.
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trenchdigger
Feb 1, 2008, 4:08 PM
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yokese wrote: Tdigger.... arguing with him?... you know better than that.
yokese wrote: Anyways, in regard to: In reply to: By running, you reduce the numerator and do not change the denominator (neglecting friction through the redirect, of course). Even considering friction, the impact force is still reduced over a stationary belayer. You reduce the fall factor, but possibly not the impact force because the rope has to absorb not only the energy to decelerate the climber but also to decelerate the belayer who is running in opposite direction.... now, that's a tricky calculation for me.
As you and many others have pointed out, there are plenty of flaws with this idea. Do you think you could actually re-position quickly enough, then give a dynamic belay to your leader while they're falling? Maybe at Stone Mountain where it's a slow, cheese-grater slide down a low-angle slab, but not on a sport route. And when was the last time you saw a crag where the ground was nice and flat and free of hazards at the base? How happy will your leader be if you start running when he falls, trip, and lose control of the belay? The list goes on...
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markc
Feb 1, 2008, 4:15 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: Just a comment/question, but how far do you think you can run once the climber starts to fall? 5, 10, 15ft? You don't exactly have a lot of time to move, it happens so quick, one second they are climbing, the next they are hanging at the end of the rope.
It depends on circumstances, but I've almost exclusively heard of running to take up rope in slab climbing situations. You can be looking at very long slides where you're generating a lot of friction. That will take a while, and chew you up in the process. If I'm ever in that situation, I'll be grateful for any distance (and skin) saved.
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