Feb 4, 2008, 8:01 PM
Post #27 of 67
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
Not if you were in some big wall or doing sport vs trad vs TR or using this or that belay device but in general;what is belayer’s first priority during leader fall ?
I am sorry, majid, I usually have patience with you. But...this is a rediculous poll. Your question does not match your poll choices. Your poll choices are entirely situational. The #1 priority in a fall is to make sure your climber doesn't hit anything, whether that means the ground or a ledge or a tree. SO in other words, catch the damn fall. Sometimes this means taking up slack quickly, which in turn could harden the fall. You know what's worse than not getting a soft catch? Hitting the ground!
The way you belay depends on the situation. It's dictated by the angle of the climb, how much rope is out/how high the climber is, whether there are any obstacles in the way, whether you are able to move as a belayer, whether you are using an atc or autolocking device, the weight of the climber, and many other factors. NOt to mention, although i have no proof of this, the alignment of the moon in relation the all the planets.
This poll is bogus! No offense.
Josh
A belay device is not rope manament device like an ABS on a car that is skidding on ICE. You guys are taking a simple question and adding attachment to it. A belay device is designed to stop a falling climber. If this statement is correct and people (climbers) agree on it , then a belayer’s first priority is to arrest the falling leader at any cost.
Feb 4, 2008, 10:14 PM
Post #32 of 67
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Re: [kriso9tails] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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The answer (to the poll options) is...
It depends.
(As usual.)
One of the factors involved in the "it depends" answer shows up as an erroneous part of the second poll question. In that option, letting out slack is equated with reducing the load. For most of the falls one encounters (leader does not fall past the belayer), introducing additional slack before the fall impact is felt by the belayer will increase the load to protection and the falling leader, not reduce it.
On overhanging rock, extra slack is sometimes introduced anyway in order to create a longer pendulum arm and so reduce the impact at the end of the pendulum, but this reduced impact to the leader's ankles comes at the expense of a higher load to the protection, and is usually of no use on less than vertical rock
Feb 4, 2008, 10:28 PM
Post #33 of 67
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Re: [majid_sabet] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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majid_sabet wrote:
A belay device is not rope manament device like an ABS on a car that is skidding on ICE. You guys are taking a simple question and adding attachment to it. A belay device is designed to stop a falling climber. If this statement is correct and people (climbers) agree on it , then a belayer’s first priority is to arrest the falling leader at any cost.
Feb 4, 2008, 11:13 PM
Post #35 of 67
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Re: [kriso9tails] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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kriso9tails wrote:
j_ung wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
In general.... it depends on the context. Climbing is about assessing the situation and responding appropriately, not about making grand generalizations.
I'm having trouble imagining a context in which the appropriate response doesn't including catching the fall.
(Okay, maybe I can imagine one.)
My, aren't you going to look silly out deep water soloing.
Feb 4, 2008, 11:58 PM
Post #37 of 67
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Re: [shockabuku] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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shockabuku wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
j_ung wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
In general.... [how you catch a fall] depends on the context. Climbing is about assessing the situation and responding appropriately, not about making grand generalizations.
I'm having trouble imagining a context in which the appropriate response doesn't including catching the fall.
(Okay, maybe I can imagine one.)
My, aren't you going to look silly out deep water soloing.
What?
That's not how the game is played: you're supposed to take what was said out of context.
Feb 5, 2008, 12:00 AM
Post #38 of 67
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Re: [kriso9tails] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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kriso9tails wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
j_ung wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
In general.... [how you catch a fall] depends on the context. Climbing is about assessing the situation and responding appropriately, not about making grand generalizations.
I'm having trouble imagining a context in which the appropriate response doesn't including catching the fall.
(Okay, maybe I can imagine one.)
My, aren't you going to look silly out deep water soloing.
What?
That's not how the game is played: you're supposed to take what was said out of context.
Feb 5, 2008, 12:02 AM
Post #39 of 67
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Re: [dingus] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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dingus wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
j_ung wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
In general.... [how you catch a fall] depends on the context. Climbing is about assessing the situation and responding appropriately, not about making grand generalizations.
I'm having trouble imagining a context in which the appropriate response doesn't including catching the fall.
(Okay, maybe I can imagine one.)
My, aren't you going to look silly out deep water soloing.
What?
That's not how the game is played: you're supposed to take what was said out of context.
Feb 5, 2008, 12:05 AM
Post #40 of 67
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Re: [kriso9tails] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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kriso9tails wrote:
dingus wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
j_ung wrote:
kriso9tails wrote:
In general.... [how you catch a fall] depends on the context. Climbing is about assessing the situation and responding appropriately, not about making grand generalizations.
I'm having trouble imagining a context in which the appropriate response doesn't including catching the fall.
(Okay, maybe I can imagine one.)
My, aren't you going to look silly out deep water soloing.
What?
That's not how the game is played: you're supposed to take what was said out of context.
Feb 5, 2008, 2:24 AM
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Re: [rgold] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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rgold wrote:
The answer (to the poll options) is...
It depends.
(As usual.)
One of the factors involved in the "it depends" answer shows up as an erroneous part of the second poll question. In that option, letting out slack is equated with reducing the load. For most of the falls one encounters (leader does not fall past the belayer), introducing additional slack before the fall impact is felt by the belayer will increase the load to protection and the falling leader, not reduce it.
On overhanging rock, extra slack is sometimes introduced anyway in order to create a longer pendulum arm and so reduce the impact at the end of the pendulum, but this reduced impact to the leader's ankles comes at the expense of a higher load to the protection, and is usually of no use on less than vertical rock
Richard I disagreed with you on this. Letting rope out to reduce shock or whatever condition you are applying these methods on is consider as damage control or rope management and such skills comes with great deal experience. You walk in to any climbing institution (guide, gyms etc) to learn how to belay, they primarily teach you to lock the rope.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 5, 2008, 2:25 AM)
Feb 5, 2008, 2:56 AM
Post #42 of 67
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Re: [majid_sabet] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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I think the disagreement comes from the different interpretation of "letting some rope out" as either letting out slack, which, as rgold correctly pointed out, increases the fall factor in most cases* or letting some rope to controllably run through the belay device before locking it , which provides a more dynamic and softer fall arrest. That said, I completely agree with what rgold has written.
Feb 5, 2008, 4:40 AM
Post #43 of 67
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Re: [yokese] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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yokese wrote:
I think the disagreement comes from the different interpretation of "letting some rope out" as either letting out slack, which, as rgold correctly pointed out, increases the fall factor in most cases* or letting some rope to controllably run through the belay device before locking it , which provides a more dynamic and softer fall arrest. That said, I completely agree with what rgold has written.
I do not see any problem with letting the slack of the system assuming; this is a left over slack above the belay device but letting rope out below the belay on purpose to reduce shock should only be done by experienced climbers.
Feb 5, 2008, 4:46 AM
Post #44 of 67
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Re: [majid_sabet] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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if there was a simple rule that worked in every case, belaying wouldn't be so hard. everyone would learn that rule and nobody would hit the wall or deck. unfortunately that's not the case and every fall situation requires some judgment. Your first priority as a belayer is your climber's safety, sometimes that means paying out, sometimes it means locking off right away.
Feb 5, 2008, 5:20 AM
Post #46 of 67
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Re: [majid_sabet] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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majid_sabet wrote:
You walk in to any climbing institution (guide, gyms etc) to learn how to belay, they primarily teach you to lock the rope.
I doubt they will teach anyone how to belay a leader if they are there to learn how to belay. Besides, when one of the option is to manage amount of slack it is only a natural assumption that there is no slack in the system. And if you belay with any device wouldn't you give some rope out anyway, before it locks? Thus realistically options in your poll are: to lock or to reduce shock and lock.
Feb 5, 2008, 5:51 AM
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Re: [rgold] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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rgold wrote:
One of the factors involved in the "it depends" answer shows up as an erroneous part of the second poll question. In that option, letting out slack is equated with reducing the load. For most of the falls one encounters (leader does not fall past the belayer), introducing additional slack before the fall impact is felt by the belayer will increase the load to protection and the falling leader, not reduce it.
Feb 5, 2008, 5:55 AM
Post #49 of 67
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Re: [AeroXan] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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AeroXan wrote:
if there was a simple rule that worked in every case, belaying wouldn't be so hard. everyone would learn that rule and nobody would hit the wall or deck. unfortunately that's not the case and every fall situation requires some judgment. Your first priority as a belayer is your climber's safety, sometimes that means paying out, sometimes it means locking off right away.
85% of you guys(whoever ) are willing to go with # 1 and you prefer to lock the rope .Then we got few old schooler (below 15%) who are willing to take their chances and go with #2.
Now, I have hard evidence from climbers decking, falling, hitting, getting injured and been killed while their belayer was doing #2, so there has to some serious reasons why most experienced climbers are choosing numero dos .
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 5, 2008, 6:20 AM)
Feb 5, 2008, 6:07 AM
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Re: [tradrenn] What is belayer’s first priority during leader fall
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tradrenn wrote:
rgold wrote:
One of the factors involved in the "it depends" answer shows up as an erroneous part of the second poll question. In that option, letting out slack is equated with reducing the load. For most of the falls one encounters (leader does not fall past the belayer), introducing additional slack before the fall impact is felt by the belayer will increase the load to protection and the falling leader, not reduce it.
Can you explain how you got this ? Thanks.
when there is alot of rope out on a fall (assume leader is far from belayer and total fall is not huge), the FF will be low. paying out would negligibly reduce the fall factor but may increase the total distance the leader falls significantly. If your FF is already low, reducing the maximum speed of the fall would reduce impact.