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austin.timm
May 2, 2008, 2:07 PM
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Just wondering if anyone out there has taken a fall in excess of 50 feet or approaching factor 2 on the Wren Solo Aid. I am considering a solo climb that will result in a considerable fall factor and a lot of hang time if I peel near the top so I would like to hear your props/gripes on the device during such scenarios. Thanks, -Austin
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altelis
May 2, 2008, 2:18 PM
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doesn't a fall from near the top (unless its a terribly short climb) NEGATE the possibility of a high fall factor? fall factor is, essentially, (fall distance)/(amount of rope out) so unless you are soloing the WHOLE pitch and fall the whole way down to the anchor you won't get a factor two. even on a terribly protected aid climb it seems like you should only be closer to a factor 1.... this is mainly from an intuitive understanding and assuming you aren't climbing an A6+++++++ (oh yes, it does exist....) route....
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wonderwoman
May 2, 2008, 3:02 PM
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Sorry that I have no response, but wanted to recommend that you might get a better response in the aid climbing forum section of this website. Have you tried going there for an answer?
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Mike_Blutarski
May 2, 2008, 8:45 PM
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Or gearheads.
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austin.timm
May 2, 2008, 10:44 PM
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altelis wrote: doesn't a fall from near the top (unless its a terribly short climb) NEGATE the possibility of a high fall factor? fall factor is, essentially, (fall distance)/(amount of rope out) so unless you are soloing the WHOLE pitch and fall the whole way down to the anchor you won't get a factor two. even on a terribly protected aid climb it seems like you should only be closer to a factor 1.... this is mainly from an intuitive understanding and assuming you aren't climbing an A6+++++++ (oh yes, it does exist....) route.... Hooking on a 20m pitch off the belay with no pro causes a fall factor two. If you can provide evidence otherwise please do. Furthermore I asked people to respond if they have used the device and taken such a fall. The other two people at least suggested that I try a different forum.
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tolman_paul
May 2, 2008, 11:32 PM
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I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone that has taken a high fall factor solo aid fall. I'm sure somebody has done that, but it's not like sport climbing where people are falling all over the place. Hard aid climbing is usually more along the lines of having a nervous breakdown and melting vs. popping off and zippering. Dual pearabiners with clove hitches are a pretty slick way of aid soloing.
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guanoboy
May 2, 2008, 11:59 PM
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Tolman- i've taken several 30 footers while soloing, but always on a clove. Blind placements, rotten rock, it happens.
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anthonypmason
May 3, 2008, 12:08 AM
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don't blow you're money on a solo aid buy a silent partner, its more $$$ however it works like a lucky charm. As far as your fall factor a fifty footer should equate to a fall factor of 1.2578 not 2.0 but that is my math. Anthony
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knieveltech
May 3, 2008, 12:40 AM
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anthonypmason wrote: don't blow you're money on a solo aid buy a silent partner, its more $$$ however it works like a lucky charm. As far as your fall factor a fifty footer should equate to a fall factor of 1.2578 not 2.0 but that is my math. Anthony The OP mentioned something about there not being pro on the pitch. Ergo a fall from anywhere on the pitch is by definition going to be a factor 2, regardless of the length of the fall.
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healyje
May 3, 2008, 12:42 AM
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Silent Partner, Eddy, or grigri - skip the SoloAid. Competent people also use the Soloist on some hard roped solos, but be aware it will not hold inverted falls or even falls where you simply get horizontal to the ground.
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austin.timm
May 3, 2008, 8:19 AM
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tolman_paul wrote: Dual pearabiners with clove hitches are a pretty slick way of aid soloing. Been there done that. It works, time for something new.
guanoboy wrote: Tolman- i've taken several 30 footers while soloing, but always on a clove. Blind placements, rotten rock, it happens. I've taken a 35 and 25 footer with clove hitches. I got a solo aid for $40 and I am impressed with it, so I will be using it. I merely was curious if anyone has taken a big one while using a solo aid not a clove hitch.
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dan2see
May 4, 2008, 1:33 AM
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I think some of the writers here are confusing "Wren Solo Aid" gadget, wiith "solo aid" climbing. The Wren Solo Aid has nothing to do with aid climbing. It's the brand name. Just like "Gator Aid" doesn't help 'gators. The "Solo Aid" gadget has a cam that jams against your rope when you fall. Also it won't feed the rope through until you un-jam the cam, with your fingers. And it works on top-rope or on regular lead. You can belay yourself and climb a sport route, a trad route, or an aid route. But still the name "Solo Aid" does not mean "aid climbing"
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mingleefu
May 4, 2008, 5:35 AM
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dan2see wrote: The Wren Solo Aid has nothing to do with aid climbing. It's the brand name. Just like "Gator Aid" doesn't help 'gators. Wrong. It was designed specifically for Gators.
http://gatorade.com/history/born_in_the_lab/ wrote: The researchers then took their findings into the lab, and scientifically formulated a new, precisely balanced carbohydrate-electrolyte beverage that would adequately replace the key components lost by [University of Florida] Gator players through sweating and exercise. They called their concoction ‘Gatorade’.
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austin.timm
May 4, 2008, 7:21 AM
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angry wrote: Here's what I'd probably do on this pitch. I'd attach three screamers in parallel to two screamers in parallel to one screamer. To the end of the pyramid, I'd tie the rope... So no belay device, no belay. You're trailing a rope up this sucker knowing full well you're going to factor 2 the shit out of your anchor. I would be a lot less concerned about the distance of the fall and more about minimizing the factor 2 impact so you don't break your rope/body. Here's a majid picture. And I'm serious. There is no reason to belay yourself if you can't get in gear. This should reduce your chance of having your guts fly out your ass or break your rope or anchor in a fall and you can concentrate fully on the climbing, no need to futz with the belay device. It would be proud. And don't fall!!! Ok, I was definitely thinking about stacking screamers anyway, so I'm glad we're on the same page there. I was initially going to use a belay device though so at least I don't take a long fall right after leaving the belay. But I like what you had to say about eliminating clutter, that's always a bonus. Plus it would be pretty proud. Ha Ha. Thanks, -Austin
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mheyman
May 4, 2008, 8:12 PM
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If the pitch does not start on the ground there is another option that might be less costly if you fall. Stay anchored to the previous pitch or build anchor some distance blow the normal anchor. Clip the normal anchor for the protectionless pitch. You won’t pull that anchor and the rope below will prevent the fall factor from approaching 2 withou ripping a slew of Screamers or Zippers.
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pmyche
May 5, 2008, 1:43 AM
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austin.timm
May 5, 2008, 3:05 AM
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pmyche wrote: The device works fine for catching long and hard falls, Austin. Don't be bothered if you see the rope not aligning perfectly with the cam--it will still lock up fine in this position IME. It's not a great device for free climbing but works well for aid. Thank you, That's what I was waiting to hear.
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oldsalt
May 5, 2008, 3:56 AM
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"angry wrote: Here's what I'd probably do on this pitch. I'd attach three screamers in parallel to two screamers in parallel to one screamer. To the end of the pyramid, I'd tie the rope. Tie in to the other end, 20m away (I'm going off your 20m pitch estimation). I'd have an extra rope at slack "backing up" the whole contraption. So no belay device, no belay. You're trailing a rope up this sucker knowing full well you're going to factor 2 the shit out of your anchor. I would be a lot less concerned about the distance of the fall and more about minimizing the factor 2 impact so you don't break your rope/body. Here's a majid picture. And I'm serious. There is no reason to belay yourself if you can't get in gear. This should reduce your chance of having your guts fly out your ass or break your rope or anchor in a fall and you can concentrate fully on the climbing, no need to futz with the belay device. And don't fall!!! Angry is no fool, so I am puzzled... at what point do you clip to anything? Is this a gear lead? The only way this picture could turn into a factor 2 fall is if you start 20' off the deck and climb 20' up, meaning 40' off the deck. Then you will have 20' of rope out while falling 40' - 40/20 = factor 2. This fall would place you on the deck at a velocity of 36 mph, by my estimation. Why bother with a rope?
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angry
May 5, 2008, 4:01 AM
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It's multipitch and I'm assuming it's not the first pitch. He's got lots of air below him. There is no pro on this pitch. A fall would be a factor 2.
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austin.timm
May 5, 2008, 1:35 PM
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oldsalt wrote: Angry is no fool, so I am puzzled... at what point do you clip to anything? Is this a gear lead? The only way this picture could turn into a factor 2 fall is if you start 20' off the deck and climb 20' up, meaning 40' off the deck. Then you will have 20' of rope out while falling 40' - 40/20 = factor 2. This fall would place you on the deck at a velocity of 36 mph, by my estimation. Why bother with a rope?
angry wrote: It's multipitch and I'm assuming it's not the first pitch. He's got lots of air below him. There is no pro on this pitch. A fall would be a factor 2. About 600 feet of air to be exact...
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dan2see
May 5, 2008, 2:32 PM
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You have another option on this route, and I don't think anybody has said so. Don't do it. Pick another route. Or you can take the extreme option, which is to go home, and come back when you figure out how to do this safely. I think the core or this thread (long fall on solo aid) is not so much how the gear works, but on whether you gotta do it. You've heard that word "gotta" before? It means you ignore the options and commit yourself to "stupid". In John Long's "Anchor" book, he describes how to use the "Jesus Nut". And why. And what happens when you don't. Also in this thread, Angry writes "And don't fall!!! " Well that always grabs me. So why the hell is Austin using a rope and harness?
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austin.timm
May 5, 2008, 4:59 PM
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dan2see wrote: You have another option on this route, and I don't think anybody has said so. Don't do it. Pick another route. Or you can take the extreme option, which is to go home, and come back when you figure out how to do this safely. I think the core or this thread (long fall on solo aid) is not so much how the gear works, but on whether you gotta do it. You've heard that word "gotta" before? It means you ignore the options and commit yourself to "stupid". In John Long's "Anchor" book, he describes how to use the "Jesus Nut". And why. And what happens when you don't. Also in this thread, Angry writes "And don't fall!!! " Well that always grabs me. So why the hell is Austin using a rope and harness? Whatever man, you're a tool.
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joeforte
May 5, 2008, 5:28 PM
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[quote "austin.timm Ok, I was definitely thinking about stacking screamers anyway, so I'm glad we're on the same page there. I was initially going to use a belay device though so at least I don't take a long fall right after leaving the belay. The extra rope leftover if you don't use a belay device will eliminate the risk of a factor 2 if you fall early, because there will be more rope out to catch the fall. The fall will be much longer, but the fall factor will be smaller. For example: Climber falls 20 feet out, no pro. 1. Using a belay device, the fall will be 40 feet, with a fall factor of 2 (40foot fall/20 feet of rope out) 2. Just tying in the end (50 ft. required to finish the pitch), the fall will be 70 feet, but the fall factor will be 1.4 (70 foot fall with 50 feet of rope out. Plus, when using Angry's method, you can use one of those KONG energy absorbers clipped in to your harness with a few feet of slack to reduce the impact even more (maybe FF 1ish?). Much less insane than FF2ing your anchor, and still proud.
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