Absolutely I care where a particular piece of gear is made. All sorts of factors go into that consideraton.
For example, I don't mind buyiuung gear made in France, Italy or UK. I don't mind buying US or in a lot of cases Mexican made gear. I (gasp!!!) don't even mind buying CANADIAN (I know.... I know.... ) so long as it isn't made of gold like apparently that stuff from the dead bird company is.
I avoid China made gear but for softgoods that's bloody hard to do. Ditto India.
But I wouldn't knowingly buy hard goods from either of those countries, nor would I knowingly do business with a US firm that oursources formerly US provided labor to either country or anything similar.
For example if I found out BD or Omega Pacific, just to pick two random examples, had outsourced cam production to Bangladesh I'd pretty much stop doing business with them; entirely.
DMT
You do know that C4's are made in China right?
You do know I don't own any C4s right? You do know I haven't bought BD anything for quite some time right?
DMT
Let me guess, you don't by OP either too?
I do but they were given to me. I preferred their prison-made products frankly. At least the prisoners had the prospect of end-of-sentence.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Jul 10, 2008, 6:10 PM)
you need more workers? obviously you have to then pay more.
Sorry Capt Obvious, but that's wrong. Here's the key sentence:
The workers who make these clothes, Asian immigrant women, are finding more attractive occupations and are leaving behind their sewing jobs.
Look, no offense, but there AREN'T enough people in North America who are willing to do this work for pretty much ANY price who CAN do it...Garment shops here in NYC pay around $25 an hour plus benefits and they can't find enough workers -- that's about $50k a year. The Garment Workers Union is dying out. Even if you could afford to pay $50 an hour, you couldn't find enough skilled workers...maybe if we had free immigration but not otherwise.
Nobody who works behind a sewing machine wants their kids to do it. It's hard, monotonous work where a slight distraction or loss of concentration results in damaged goods. It takes five to six years of work to become decent. Every single machine operator I've ever talked to wanted their kids to go to school for those five to six years and get a "better" job. This includes folks I know here in NYC making over $100k a year sewing ...
Do you realize that only about 1/10 of the cost of any climbing / outdoor sports stuff is labor? The real costs and environmental impacts are from the manufacture of the raw materials. Do you care or even know where the material inputs are from in your climbing gear? Would you rather have something made from materials manufactured in the USA and sewn together (for example... ) in Turkey or something made from raw materials manufactured in the PRC and sewn together in the USA?
...
And the reason there is nobody who can sew in N.America is.........................
Oh, funny. Those jobs have all been shipped away.
Honestly, I'd rather (and will) pay a few bucks more for something made in the US or Canada.
Nope. You're wrong. Sorry, but that's how it is.
Those jobs weren't "shipped away". In the sewn products industry, it was natural attrition and competition. Assuming that the Japanese, the Chinese and the Vietnamese and Koreans and Guatemalans and Colombians and ... don't think or act for themselves strikes me as ridiculous. Garments being made in China wasn't something started by white men from VF corporation, it was started by some Chinese guy who saw an opportunity and bid on a production run, and made the delivery.
Sewn products are manufactured by companies that could compete better. It's not price -- anybody who's been in business for more than a year will tell you that -- it's on time and on budget delivery of what you ordered. Almost nobody in North America or the EU wants to work as a production sewer. When factories lose workers due to attrition or similar, they miss deliveries or screw stuff up.
And btw, it's not a "few bucks more" for something sewn in the USA or Canada. It could be the same cost, it could be 1/4 to 2x or more. But there's no way it would be a "few bucks"...just no way.
For example, a classic batch manufacturing production line doing US Military Pants in North Carolina costs about $10 of labor a pair with immense capital costs that aren't included in that figure. The same pants made in the Dominican Republic, Guatemala or Columbia cost $5 to sew and there aren't the capital costs for the machinery. You're ready to spend $70 instead of $40 for those pants? I'm sorry, and I wish I could, but I just don't believe there are many folks who do. And I manufacture frigging backpacks, here in Brooklyn NY, for a living...
An interesting analogy / point: all the men in my family are laborers. They are lobstermen, electricians, and carpenters. All of them enjoy their work and have always been happy to pass on their skills to me. However, none of them wanted me to grow up in their shoes. I wanted to become a carpenter when I was younger because I enjoyed pounding nails, etc. I was very likely influenced by watching the men in my family get up and go to work. There was something admirable in what they were doing, and thus I wanted to be like them. My father, upon hearing this, set out to convince me that there were better opportunities in life. His argumetn was that their lives wre good lives, but also hard ones that they'd rather their children not be required to take on.
John Adams measured progress in much the same way: I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music.
Economic progress goes as such: agriculture to industry to service to management to investment to competition, with competition being the point where the quality of life is relatively the same everywhere regardless of nationality. What John Adams was saying is that he does the hard work so that future generations can become more enlightened. Enlightenment leads to better lives.
It is my opinion that better lives deserve to be lived everywhere. We may not be in a position to happily state that work conditions are the same in the developing world as they are in the developed world today, but we are in a position to state that work conditions are better in the developing world today than they were yesterday, and will continue to improve en masse over the years as we generally improve our lives overall. This is less about current comparability (though it certainly adds and improves the debate), but more about progress instead.
Uhggg. You just convinced me that at least one of my children should be a soldier, as much as I don't really want that.
In America, you can get any job done if you pay the right price. My job is hard and repetitive, and if it was poorly paid, nobody in America would want to do it either. Irregardless, we still find plenty of actuaries, garbage man, and janitors. You just have to pay the right price.
Just out of curiosity, have you passed all 8 exams in property and casualty or the 8 for pensions? If you have, I'll match your salary & benefits as an actuary if you can do the sewing half as well as our slowest and worst employee. We're located in Red Hook, Brooklyn. We're an equal opportunity employer. You'll be making a bit more than than our highest paid sewer, but not a lot more.
In my opinion, your quote rebutting the other is that of somebody who's never tried to hire somebody to do a crappy job well. It's not as simple as offering a ton of money, or the US would not be dependent on H1Bs and other short term work permits...
An interesting analogy / point: all the men in my family are laborers. They are lobstermen, electricians, and carpenters. All of them enjoy their work and have always been happy to pass on their skills to me. However, none of them wanted me to grow up in their shoes. I wanted to become a carpenter when I was younger because I enjoyed pounding nails, etc. I was very likely influenced by watching the men in my family get up and go to work. There was something admirable in what they were doing, and thus I wanted to be like them. My father, upon hearing this, set out to convince me that there were better opportunities in life. His argumetn was that their lives wre good lives, but also hard ones that they'd rather their children not be required to take on.
John Adams measured progress in much the same way: I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music.
Economic progress goes as such: agriculture to industry to service to management to investment to competition, with competition being the point where the quality of life is relatively the same everywhere regardless of nationality. What John Adams was saying is that he does the hard work so that future generations can become more enlightened. Enlightenment leads to better lives.
It is my opinion that better lives deserve to be lived everywhere. We may not be in a position to happily state that work conditions are the same in the developing world as they are in the developed world today, but we are in a position to state that work conditions are better in the developing world today than they were yesterday, and will continue to improve en masse over the years as we generally improve our lives overall. This is less about current comparability (though it certainly adds and improves the debate), but more about progress instead.
Uhggg. You just convinced me that at least one of my children should be a soldier, as much as I don't really want that.
Wow, what do you do? I support our soliders (not the war, there is a difference), but I wouldn't want to be one.
I do talk intelligent but not on this site plus, while these guys are keep talking about how they should support local MFGs, they forget that the American flag is been made in China. The problem is too fuc*king deep for an average climber to figure out if they do not give jack global politics .
Big Companies do not give a sh*t about what you think or where the product is been made and as long as the product meets the requirement and it been made cheap, it will do the job. What they care is the big # at the end of each quarter and to keep the stock holders happy, that is it. So, for Petzl to be competitor with BD or anyone else, they look at cost vs profit and not just in Europe but all over the world. In today’s economy, you either have to be the pimp daddy or a bitch. I am sure, most of the climbing Mfgs like to be the daddy and not the bitch.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jul 10, 2008, 6:44 PM)
i'm sorry but this is the only discussion in this thread i am interested in. i think it proves that quality can slip even in things made by good old fashioned lazy-ass americans. you don't have to outsource something to have it suck. you just have to lower your standards and not care about whether it sucks or not.
While I won't intentionally use the word, I think the 'ir' adds a phonetic value that is worth consideration.
And it is so damn easy to irritate the shit out of people with it.
i'm sorry but this is the only discussion in this thread i am interested in. i think it proves that quality can slip even in things made by good old fashioned lazy-ass americans. you don't have to outsource something to have it suck. you just have to lower your standards and not care about whether it sucks or not.
While I won't intentionally use the word, I think the 'ir' adds a phonetic value that is worth consideration.
And it is so damn easy to irritate the shit out of people with it.
Machiavellian! Most of my mistakes are untinentional asswell.
Just out of curiosity, have you passed all 8 exams in property and casualty or the 8 for pensions? If you have, I'll match your salary & benefits as an actuary if you can do the sewing half as well as our slowest and worst employee.
I passed my exams in Life and Health, and I would love to sew for a living instead of squint at meaningless numbers trying to increase our stock price. Can you limit me to 8 hours a day? I won't have someone yelling at me all day to lower reserves will I? I am not a great sewer, but I have sewn some torn fleece in the backcountry and I made myself a Dracula cape last Halloween.
i'm sorry but this is the only discussion in this thread i am interested in. i think it proves that quality can slip even in things made by good old fashioned lazy-ass americans. you don't have to outsource something to have it suck. you just have to lower your standards and not care about whether it sucks or not.
While I won't intentionally use the word, I think the 'ir' adds a phonetic value that is worth consideration.
And it is so damn easy to irritate the shit out of people with it.
heh. well yeah, we all have our buttons right? it's like saying "WARSH" or spelling night "NITE" or calling snow "THE WHITE STUFF". pretty much makes me want to put a chinese made boot in somebody's ass.
...now stay tuned for several more pages of high school level economics.
I do talk intelligent but not on this site plus, while these guys are keep talking about how they should support local MFGs, they forget that the American flag is been made in China. The problem is too fuc*king deep for an average climber to figure out if they do not give jack global politics .
Big Companies do not give a sh*t about what you think or where the product is been made and as long as the product meets the requirement and it been made cheap, it will do the job. What they care is the big # at the end of each quarter and to keep the stock holders happy, that is it. So, for Petzl to be competitor with BD or anyone else, they look at cost vs profit and not just in Europe but all over the world. In today’s economy, you either have to be the pimp daddy or a bitch. I am sure, most of the climbing Mfgs like to be the daddy and not the bitch.
Okay, that was mildly inteligent.
My point is climbing manufacturers really aren't all that big. Yvon Chouinard said something along the line of "If you want to change the corporations, you have to change the consumers" that's you and me.
Recently, only a few km form out house, they closed the last fruit cannery in Canada. Several hundred people lost their jobs. Hundreds of local farmers had to tear our thousands of fruit trees and had to come up with some other product to grow. In the past few years you would hear nothing about it. The local grocery stores were selling canned fruit from S.Africa rather than the stuff that could have been grown and canned right down the street. Now it is to late. It can't be brought back. Good thing the Walmart Supercenter is hiring.
A lot of gear is still made in the States, but that is quickly changing. Not everyone can make 6 figures pushing pencils. Really, how many of those jobs will be left when there is no industry left here?
BTW, MN passed a law that all US flags sold must be made in the USA. I'd bet there are other States that have done the same.
I drive a Subaru, not a VW. Fantasy Football starts soon so you won't have to deal with me much longer.
First I learn that there are elements of Canadia that aren't completely bassakwards, now I learn that Fantasy Football actually fulfills a small purpose in life? What a day!
How many days left? I want to make one of those paper-ring chains where you remove a ring each day in anticipation of a major event.
An interesting analogy / point: all the men in my family are laborers. They are lobstermen, electricians, and carpenters. All of them enjoy their work and have always been happy to pass on their skills to me. However, none of them wanted me to grow up in their shoes. I wanted to become a carpenter when I was younger because I enjoyed pounding nails, etc. I was very likely influenced by watching the men in my family get up and go to work. There was something admirable in what they were doing, and thus I wanted to be like them. My father, upon hearing this, set out to convince me that there were better opportunities in life. His argumetn was that their lives wre good lives, but also hard ones that they'd rather their children not be required to take on.
John Adams measured progress in much the same way: I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music.
Economic progress goes as such: agriculture to industry to service to management to investment to competition, with competition being the point where the quality of life is relatively the same everywhere regardless of nationality. What John Adams was saying is that he does the hard work so that future generations can become more enlightened. Enlightenment leads to better lives.
It is my opinion that better lives deserve to be lived everywhere. We may not be in a position to happily state that work conditions are the same in the developing world as they are in the developed world today, but we are in a position to state that work conditions are better in the developing world today than they were yesterday, and will continue to improve en masse over the years as we generally improve our lives overall. This is less about current comparability (though it certainly adds and improves the debate), but more about progress instead.
Uhggg. You just convinced me that at least one of my children should be a soldier, as much as I don't really want that.
Wow, what do you do?
I'm a soldier.
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I support our soliders (not the war, there is a difference)
Maybe not as big a difference as you think.
Gmburns2000 wrote:
, but I wouldn't want to be one.
That's exactly the problem we're discussing isn't it?
An interesting analogy / point: all the men in my family are laborers. They are lobstermen, electricians, and carpenters. All of them enjoy their work and have always been happy to pass on their skills to me. However, none of them wanted me to grow up in their shoes. I wanted to become a carpenter when I was younger because I enjoyed pounding nails, etc. I was very likely influenced by watching the men in my family get up and go to work. There was something admirable in what they were doing, and thus I wanted to be like them. My father, upon hearing this, set out to convince me that there were better opportunities in life. His argumetn was that their lives wre good lives, but also hard ones that they'd rather their children not be required to take on.
John Adams measured progress in much the same way: I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music.
Economic progress goes as such: agriculture to industry to service to management to investment to competition, with competition being the point where the quality of life is relatively the same everywhere regardless of nationality. What John Adams was saying is that he does the hard work so that future generations can become more enlightened. Enlightenment leads to better lives.
It is my opinion that better lives deserve to be lived everywhere. We may not be in a position to happily state that work conditions are the same in the developing world as they are in the developed world today, but we are in a position to state that work conditions are better in the developing world today than they were yesterday, and will continue to improve en masse over the years as we generally improve our lives overall. This is less about current comparability (though it certainly adds and improves the debate), but more about progress instead.
Uhggg. You just convinced me that at least one of my children should be a soldier, as much as I don't really want that.
Wow, what do you do?
I'm a soldier.
Gmburns2000 wrote:
I support our soliders (not the war, there is a difference)
Maybe not as big a difference as you think.
Gmburns2000 wrote:
, but I wouldn't want to be one.
That's exactly the problem we're discussing isn't it?
I guess I'm a little confused why you'd want your son to be a soldier based on my argument. My argument states that, regardless of what it is that you do, you want your kids to be in a better position than you. Or, you work hard and make sacrifices so he doesn't have to.
As for the war vs soldier comment, I think there is a difference. It would be a bad thing if our military decided on going to war as opposed to our politicians. The soldiers have no choice (beyond enlisting), and that's a good thing. I can disagree with the politics and hope for the best for the men and women charged with following orders.
I do talk intelligent but not on this site plus, while these guys are keep talking about how they should support local MFGs, they forget that the American flag is been made in China. The problem is too fuc*king deep for an average climber to figure out if they do not give jack global politics .
Big Companies do not give a sh*t about what you think or where the product is been made and as long as the product meets the requirement and it been made cheap, it will do the job. What they care is the big # at the end of each quarter and to keep the stock holders happy, that is it. So, for Petzl to be competitor with BD or anyone else, they look at cost vs profit and not just in Europe but all over the world. In today’s economy, you either have to be the pimp daddy or a bitch. I am sure, most of the climbing Mfgs like to be the daddy and not the bitch.
Okay, that was mildly inteligent.
My point is climbing manufacturers really aren't all that big. Yvon Chouinard said something along the line of "If you want to change the corporations, you have to change the consumers" that's you and me.
Recently, only a few km form out house, they closed the last fruit cannery in Canada. Several hundred people lost their jobs. Hundreds of local farmers had to tear our thousands of fruit trees and had to come up with some other product to grow. In the past few years you would hear nothing about it. The local grocery stores were selling canned fruit from S.Africa rather than the stuff that could have been grown and canned right down the street. Now it is to late. It can't be brought back. Good thing the Walmart Supercenter is hiring.
A lot of gear is still made in the States, but that is quickly changing. Not everyone can make 6 figures pushing pencils. Really, how many of those jobs will be left when there is no industry left here?
BTW, MN passed a law that all US flags sold must be made in the USA. I'd bet there are other States that have done the same.
I never told you this but I am totally anti big corporate structure which cut down on job killing towns left and right not in this country and all over the world. Hello and welcome to capitalism to its maximum effectiveness.
When I tell you that the American flag is made in China is not to give an example of products are been made and where but to say that, a nation’s only symbol is been made by another nation. That is fuc*ed up .Every day people are loosing their jobs and town just because some as*hole in the air-conditioning room is making discussion on where to make money and where to cut to save. Is this going to happen to climbing Mfgs ? sure they will
If Mfg named A in USA does not compete with European Mfg named B over the $ 1.99 biner, they will loose their clients and eventually close and shut down for good. That is not a possibility but a fact in such a tight market. US companies have to compete and climbing Mfgs are no different than GM or DOW.
I know climbers want the best gear and I personally, rather have one top US made gear than 20 half ass made Chinese gear but the realility is shown that a lot top made US gear Mfgs are going to China so my suggestion is this
HOLD ON TO YOUR US MADE STUFF CAUSE YOU MAY NOT SEE ANYTHING LIKE IT AGAIN.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jul 10, 2008, 10:03 PM)
47 /
57%
) in Turkey or something made from raw materials manufactured in the PRC and sewn together in the USA? 
