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Touchstone death...Zion National Park
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socalclimber


Oct 22, 2008, 12:05 AM
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Re: [flamer] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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No problems, just making a point for clarity.


majid_sabet


Oct 22, 2008, 3:07 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
flamer wrote:
toofreakinsexy1 wrote:
but what we can learn from these mistakes is important, as long as it's done respectfully.

I agree completely....however read what Majid wrote and how it was said. Sure's seems like a scolding of the victim.

josh

Actually, what Majid wrote wasn't scolding of the victim, it was flat out wrong.

and you would explain why?

right !!!


socalclimber


Oct 22, 2008, 3:42 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
flamer wrote:
toofreakinsexy1 wrote:
but what we can learn from these mistakes is important, as long as it's done respectfully.

I agree completely....however read what Majid wrote and how it was said. Sure's seems like a scolding of the victim.

josh

Actually, what Majid wrote wasn't scolding of the victim, it was flat out wrong.

and you would explain why?

right !!!

Sure, if one of your ascenders cuts the rope, then all the back ties to the harness are worthless. Your ascenders are not going to be BELOW your harness loop tie in point. Now, if you had a prussik above your top ascender, this would solve THAT problem. MAYBE. But, now you have a new problem, how do you pass a knot, or deal with cleaning gear? Ok fine, there are ways around this as well. Here's the real question. How long do you want to spend cleaning a pitch?

Something is very wrong here with the vague explanation that his ascenders became partially disengaged from the rope allowing him to slide for twenty plus feet down the rope, then one of them grabbing and cutting the rope.

I'm not buying it.


socalclimber


Oct 23, 2008, 1:04 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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I just found this over at the taco stand and thought I'd post it, I also included the link to the thread.

http://www.supertopo.com/..._id=701629&tn=40

In reply to:
Here's basically what happened:

The team was climbing as 3. They climbed pitches 3 and 4 separately but decided to link the hauls in one shot. Matt was at the top of pitch 4, James and Perry were at the top of 3, and the bags were hanging on the haul line near the top of pitch 2. Matt had finished pitch 4 and fixed the haul line onto a pro traxion and backed it up. James was to jug the haul line while perry cleaned pitch 4 because the rope was in reach of the 3rd belay, albeit weighted already with the bags. I'm pretty sure they were using James' 9.5mm 70 m static line -- the same one we used on the Salathe a week before with no issues.

James somehow malfunctioned the attachment of his jumars to the taught haul line, but after he had released his daisy chains from the anchor. He began sliding down the haul line until one of his jumars finally engaged some 30 feet later or so. There was a sheath piling found on the scene, so we know he broke the sheath first, initiated a sheath fall, and finally the core broke after the sheath fall ended and shock-loaded the system. He and the bags fell 300 feet to the base. Other details are not known yet. We do not know how James failed to attach the ascenders properly, but we do know that he is used to using the new BD ascenders and for just that pitch he used the petzl jumars.

Please folks, understand that jumaring taught haul lines is not safe and should always be avoided. I had a close call on the Nose in 2003 when my partner jumared a taght haul line and we broke a pro-traxion in half during the lower out. It cut the sheath, and the backup knot I tied saved his life. I only use pro-traxions these days with a full strength swivel and a big locker in the bottom hole.

When climbing as 3, the second should always jumar the slacked haul line first so he can be backed up with knots or a gri gri, then the bags can be lowered out. In their case, it was not possible because they linked the hauls. If you link hauls like that, the second should clean the upper pitch first, then the third should jumar the lead line after it's been cleaned rather than grabbing the taught haul line and comitting to it. Plus, linking hauls like that is usually not possible anwyay because the haul line hardly ever hangs within reach of the intermediate belay. And also, saving time by linking those hauls is counterproductive when you consider that to get the other two up safely, you'd need to wait until the upper pitch is cleaned before the third can come up.

If a taught haul line is going over a lip, you cannot pass it with 2 jumars and because you cannot be backed up with a gri gri or knots, you are only on one jumar during the maneuver. It's also too much strain for the hauling device and is more likely to chop ropes going over sharp edges. It doesn't save time to do it this way either. Just avoid it no matter what. I've climbed many walls with 3 people and always jug an unweighted haul line. The one time we did otherwise (on the Nose) my partner almost died.

--Pete

This makes more sense to me. But I still am not sure how he would not have noticed that the ascenders were not properly engaged. I think I'm going to go in my backyard play with this a bit.

I do want to put an emphasis on the point that jugging a fully load line is a really bad idea. What you should do is jug the line before the bags are loose.

Wow! Sad story.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Oct 23, 2008, 1:45 PM)


morlebeke


Oct 23, 2008, 1:41 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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another point to consider, I use adjustable daisies on aid pitches, and my partner took a lead fall on aid, falling maybe 4-5 feet from the top daisy to the second daisy, and he was up far enough on the pitch that the lead line slack hadn't caught. A very short fall to shock load that daisy created a tear in the daisy just below the handle in the webbing. I was surprised such a short fall nearly tore through the daisy. When I jug a haul line I jug a slack line and back up with a grigri, or at minimum I'll use the biner to make sure the ascender doesn't come off the rope and be tied into the end of the rope.

the point being, if you jug with no backup and use a daisy from the ascender to your harness, the bottom daisy is at risk of a shock load and tearing. You can't consider 2 ascenders with daisies redundant enough to be safe.


socalclimber


Oct 23, 2008, 5:03 PM
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Re: [morlebeke] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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I may have a very plausible explanation for what happened. I'm still having a hard time believing that the ascenders didn't lock onto the rope properly.

I spoke at length with a friend of mine who is A VERY, VERY, EXPERIENCED WALL CLIMBER. I described the accident as it was related from the post on the taco. He immediately said, "There's a very good chance that the sheath of the rope had a weak spot in it, and when James weighted his ascenders with the rope already under tension from the load of the bags, the sheath seperated and he started sliding down."

He flat out stated, he has had a sheath seperate on him during jugging and said it was terrifying, especialy since he had to jug up just the core.

Without getting any info from someone who inspected the rope after the fall, it's hard to tell. But I believe this a very likely scenario and cause.

Again, really sad.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Oct 23, 2008, 5:30 PM)


socalclimber


Oct 25, 2008, 1:52 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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Interesting how nobody seems interested in discussing this.


Partner robdotcalm


Oct 25, 2008, 3:37 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
Interesting how nobody seems interested in discussing this.

It simply may be that you've come up with a plausible scenario which none of us (fortunately) have had any experience.

r.c


socalclimber


Oct 25, 2008, 8:57 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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That well may be the case. It has happened to me, but not jugging. It happened lowering a friend on top rope while he 60 feet off the ground. The bad portion of the rope is now hanging in Nomads with a sign dangling from that sez "Need a new rope?"


majid_sabet


Oct 25, 2008, 10:15 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
I may have a very plausible explanation for what happened. I'm still having a hard time believing that the ascenders didn't lock onto the rope properly.

I spoke at length with a friend of mine who is A VERY, VERY, EXPERIENCED WALL CLIMBER. I described the accident as it was related from the post on the taco. He immediately said, "There's a very good chance that the sheath of the rope had a weak spot in it, and when James weighted his ascenders with the rope already under tension from the load of the bags, the sheath seperated and he started sliding down."

He flat out stated, he has had a sheath seperate on him during jugging and said it was terrifying, especialy since he had to jug up just the core.

Without getting any info from someone who inspected the rope after the fall, it's hard to tell. But I believe this a very likely scenario and cause.

Again, really sad.

there is a SAR related link that shows how on few occasions petzl jumar failed to lock.


socalclimber


Oct 25, 2008, 11:35 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
I may have a very plausible explanation for what happened. I'm still having a hard time believing that the ascenders didn't lock onto the rope properly.

I spoke at length with a friend of mine who is A VERY, VERY, EXPERIENCED WALL CLIMBER. I described the accident as it was related from the post on the taco. He immediately said, "There's a very good chance that the sheath of the rope had a weak spot in it, and when James weighted his ascenders with the rope already under tension from the load of the bags, the sheath seperated and he started sliding down."

He flat out stated, he has had a sheath seperate on him during jugging and said it was terrifying, especialy since he had to jug up just the core.

Without getting any info from someone who inspected the rope after the fall, it's hard to tell. But I believe this a very likely scenario and cause.

Again, really sad.

there is a SAR related link that shows how on few occasions petzl jumar failed to lock.

If you got it, post it up. I would really like to see it.


majid_sabet


Oct 26, 2008, 2:10 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
I may have a very plausible explanation for what happened. I'm still having a hard time believing that the ascenders didn't lock onto the rope properly.

I spoke at length with a friend of mine who is A VERY, VERY, EXPERIENCED WALL CLIMBER. I described the accident as it was related from the post on the taco. He immediately said, "There's a very good chance that the sheath of the rope had a weak spot in it, and when James weighted his ascenders with the rope already under tension from the load of the bags, the sheath seperated and he started sliding down."

He flat out stated, he has had a sheath seperate on him during jugging and said it was terrifying, especialy since he had to jug up just the core.

Without getting any info from someone who inspected the rope after the fall, it's hard to tell. But I believe this a very likely scenario and cause.

Again, really sad.

there is a SAR related link that shows how on few occasions petzl jumar failed to lock.

If you got it, post it up. I would really like to see it.

http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/


socalclimber


Oct 26, 2008, 2:24 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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Very interesting. Thanks for that. One point here that his bottom ascender kept him from going anywhere. If you re-read the post I made above, they clearly saw the sheath all bunched up. I have hunch my explanation is what happened. It seems to be the most plausible.

A taut static rope, with that much load on it, and a possible weak sheath would be all it takes. I'm not even convinced he made any mistakes with his ascenders. His biggest mistake was jugging on the loaded side of the haul line.

Sad indeed. Again, thanks for the link. Sounds like Petzl had a bit of a design flaw there.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Oct 26, 2008, 2:25 AM)


moondog


Oct 27, 2008, 4:56 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
there is a SAR related link that shows how on few occasions petzl jumar failed to lock. http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/

The focus of the linked article is an incident in which an ascender inadvertently became disconnected from the rope.

A discussion about the incident on a caver forum from a few years back:

http://tinyurl.com/6pnpr3


(This post was edited by moondog on Oct 27, 2008, 4:57 PM)


trenchdigger


Oct 27, 2008, 5:40 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
I may have a very plausible explanation for what happened. I'm still having a hard time believing that the ascenders didn't lock onto the rope properly.

I spoke at length with a friend of mine who is A VERY, VERY, EXPERIENCED WALL CLIMBER. I described the accident as it was related from the post on the taco. He immediately said, "There's a very good chance that the sheath of the rope had a weak spot in it, and when James weighted his ascenders with the rope already under tension from the load of the bags, the sheath seperated and he started sliding down."

He flat out stated, he has had a sheath seperate on him during jugging and said it was terrifying, especialy since he had to jug up just the core.

Without getting any info from someone who inspected the rope after the fall, it's hard to tell. But I believe this a very likely scenario and cause.

Again, really sad.

there is a SAR related link that shows how on few occasions petzl jumar failed to lock.

If you got it, post it up. I would really like to see it.

http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/

It's relevant to note that this link describes an incident where an ascender accidentally detaches from a rope. It does NOT describe the failure implicated in this accident where the ascender stays on the rope but fails to grip.

I'm curious whether a certain, unusual grip on the new BD ascenders could hold them open and cause them not to grip.


kennoyce


Oct 27, 2008, 6:14 PM
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Re: [trenchdigger] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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just want to let you know that he was using petzl ascenders, not BD. the article stated that he normally used the new BD, but on this particular pitch he used petzl. I think that socilaclimber hit the nail on the head. Sorry to hear about the accident, and my condolences go out to the family and friends.


socalclimber


Nov 2, 2008, 12:59 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] Touchstone death [In reply to]
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Thanks for the clarification on the ascenders. I just don't see how he could have had both ascenders loose on the rope, then unclip from the anchor unless he could defy gravity. You have to have at least one ascender/daisy taut to take your weight before you can unclip from the anchor.

Weak spots on the sheath are not always obvious either.

Bummer.

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