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howitzer
Nov 11, 2002, 7:58 PM
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I saw this phrase on a bumper sticker of some church-going soccermom the other day and it really irked me. If not for only the reason that more people have died in disputes over God and Jesus Christ than any other issue in the history of the human race.
There is no peace when it comes to the topic of religion and God and Jesus Christ -just ask anyone living in the middle east, or northern Ireland for that matter. The people in these parts of the world all clam to 'know Jesus' but do they know peace? No because they are in constant conflict over God and Jesus.
I am sure it's referring to the metaphorical "inner peace" but it doesn't say that. So if the world 'knows Jesus' we'll finally see peace here on Earth? Doubtful if you ask me.
Just some thoughts. ;)
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thomasribiere
Nov 11, 2002, 8:25 PM
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I believed you believed it. But I see that you don't.
If there was one god for me, I think it would be the nature and I would deeply respect it. But I hope I wouldn't fight to death the ones who don't respect it. Wow, even this god can become dangerous...
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catga86
Nov 11, 2002, 8:28 PM
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If I truely understand Jesus, and God, then I would know what would happen to me in the afterlife. There would be no need to be afraid. You would be happy.
I can see where you are coming from. The fighting and defending your religion, can break your faith. I don't understand why as the people fight for their religon they break their religon by killing. That is the one thing I don't understand. If they truely followed their faith then they would try to find peace.... Right? Or is this just my thought...
-Cat
PS Sorry if this sounds weird, I am trying to put my thoughts together during English class.
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howitzer
Nov 11, 2002, 8:34 PM
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no, it's good stuff you guys! I'm interested in if others see this the same way I do as a contradiction in terms, or if they see it a different way. There are no right or wrong answers
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wildtrail
Nov 11, 2002, 8:52 PM
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Well, you all know my standpoint and views. I'm with Abi. It's all a crock.
Religion is a dead end road to mind controlling, governmental, political bullshit that everyone fights over.
Stupid. Just stupid.
There may be a "god", but she would want it to be this way.
Steve
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wv5ten
Nov 11, 2002, 8:55 PM
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The thing is, Most "religious" wars have used Religion as an excuse, or was started by the Roman Catholic Church. As a christian, there is nothing I find more peace in than God and Jesus. I find solace in nature, which i look to as a creation of the Lord. in knowing jesus i do know peace. just as when i was an athiest, I thought i knew peace, but inside there was nothing but self hatred.
Also, in my faith there is the coming of the kingdom of peace for 1000 years (revelations) which if you are saved you will exist in. but that is putting it into a physical sense.
Hope I didn't sound to preachy, but this is my views on it. I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone, I merely just put in my .02 cents
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rockwomyn
Nov 11, 2002, 9:36 PM
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Whoa.....Abi..when i read the title i thought we lost you to the other side.
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howitzer
Nov 11, 2002, 9:41 PM
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I'm still witcha Eryn! Don't you worry!
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joel_gibbel
Nov 11, 2002, 9:49 PM
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I saw the same bumper sticker, but there was more to it. It said "No Jesus, no peace. Know Jesus, know peace." Probably still seems contradictory Abi, and you make a very good point.
It is very interesting and disturbing at the same time how religion has been corupted and perverted over the years by killing in the name of it. And in doing so, breaking the very message they are trying to spread through their faith. Catga has the right idea. However, I believe that Jesus does indeed bring inner peace (as explaind by wv), as well as showing the way to physical peace (the opposite of violence and war).
A central theme of Jesus' teaching was the instruction to love one's neighbor and to love one's enemy. If every follower of Jesus actually abided by this commandment, then we could have much more peace in the world.
It's a shame that the higher church and governments throughout history have sought to spread their religion by use of force rather than by sharing it through love. I contend that if everyone in the world actually loved their neighbors and their enemies (which is possible, it just takes effort and a great deal of unselfishness and humility), then peace could prevail.
Finally, I think that people would still find things to fight about if they weren't fighting about religion (territory, politics, oil, etc.). The only way to stop it is to stop not caring about others and actually love them as if everyone in the world was family. That is the Jesus way, and really the only way to truly have peace in the world. Pretty unrealistic for that to actually happen, but it's true that it is the only way. Comments? This is good stuff.
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coach
Nov 11, 2002, 10:09 PM
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Joel,
Some really good points. I think that the you are correct in that "knowing Jesus" and his teaching should lead to peace but unfortunately (as stated) man has corrupted it to serve his own purposes too often and done so in the name of God or Jesus.
If we all truly knew and practiced what Jesus taught the world would be a better place whether or not we believed in a divine being. Love for our fellow man, forgiveness for others, etc. Can't all be bad!
Climb On
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hugepedro
Nov 11, 2002, 10:26 PM
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I usually try to stay away from religous discussions, but you sucked me in.
Religion hasn't been corrupted or perverted by killing in its name. Religion has CAUSED most killing because it provides moral justification for murder. This is because religion doesn't come from some devine being (God). Religion is an invention of man's. Man has always needed a way to assuage his guilt (over his evil acts) and his fear (of the unknown, like death). Man kills, and man needs a means to rationalize the righteousness of his killing. If you believe the Old Testament, God himself killed all mankind but for Noah and his family. That story is a fine example of justification of extreme, irrational, bloodlust on grounds of moral principle. There are plenty of other examples throughout the Bible of the violence of God. The human concept of God, in its many religious manifestations, is merely a reflection of man.
I am not an atheist, in case you're wondering.
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jarhead118
Nov 11, 2002, 10:28 PM
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I think it is a matter of practicing what you preach and remember there are two forces at work in the world and I don't mean REP and DEM either.
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dynamic
Nov 12, 2002, 12:06 AM
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Do you really believe that religion has somehow caused any genocide or war that surpassed other causes?
Have you ever tallied up the number of deaths and wars that came about as a result of GODLESSNESS? The motives for killing people have generally been more political. Communist regimes in Asia a few years back... the Nazis... tons of European squabbles were political... Idi Amin and Obote just after him in Uganda... I highly disagree with you that religion causes disputes, especially Christianity.
[ This Message was edited by: dynamic on 2002-11-11 16:07 ]
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winkwinklambonini
Nov 12, 2002, 12:09 AM
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I've seen that sticker too, and I took it as a belittlement of the muslim religion, exactly the mentallity that leads to war.
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dynamic
Nov 12, 2002, 2:36 AM
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Ummm hobbs, I don't mean to drive home the obvious, but the Crusades were under a "Christian" banner but I don't think that you can legitimately place them truly under Christian motive, let alone Christian ethos.
As for the inquisitions, same theory applies. However, there is a different and very interesting struggle here in which case the value of the soul is placed above the value of the flesh. The analogy could be made to that present conflict we have about Jehovah Witnesses and their refusal of blood transfusions. This religious conviction doesn't make them right, but they justify it in their minds. The Spaniards bought into a perverted teaching that had more to do with flexing their muscles than it had to do with the teachings of scriptures.
Basically without God there are no reigns on the conscience and psychos can do what they want (and they have time after time after time).
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climbchick
Nov 12, 2002, 2:50 AM
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Northern Ireland, Israel, the entire Middle East, as far as I can tell. Religion=war. It didn't stop with the Crusades and the Inquisition.
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jayims
Nov 12, 2002, 3:48 AM
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Exodus 20:13-"You shall not murder"-make sense? I would hope so! I dont know what books you guys been reading but you should check this one out and you might learn something before making judgements!
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camhead
Nov 12, 2002, 6:09 AM
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Dynamic's Quote:
"The Spaniards bought into a perverted teaching that had more to do with flexing their muscles than it had to do with the teachings of scriptures."
I am about to seriously rant, buddy. Watch out.
Still buying into the Leyenda Negra? That is so nineteenth century! I truly resent your f---ing Anglocentric view that Spain was somehow UNUSUALLY EVIL!!!!
Quit making broad generalizations please. If you want to talk pure altruistic religious devotion, unrivalled by any of their contemporaries, one has to look no further than Spanish Franciscan Monasticism.
While the Puritans were busy poisaning natives, and the French busy just buying furs from them at cut rate prices, the Spaniards, WITH the support of the crown, were going among the natives relatively peacefully.
No, they were not without fault, but I think that the f---ed up Protestant ethics (the same ethics that I am sure you devoutly follow) of northern Europe were more detrimental to natives in the New World than those of Spain, so quit making biased and unfounded statements until you can actually back up your facts, buddy.
Case in point: in Spanish speaking countries, the natives assimilated, in English speaking countries, 90% of them were eradicated. Note that the USA has no inherrent mestizo population.
Spanish Christianity unusually perverted? Name me an English equivalent to Frays Las Casas, Garces, Kino, Escalante, Benevides, De Niza, Salvatierra, Dominguez, the list goes on. Every one of these men proseletized SPANISH CATHOLICISM upon native Americans, with NO military violence, NO bloodshed, and true humility. They were closer to true Christianity, I would argue, than anyone else of that era.
cheers,
Paul
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dynamic
Nov 12, 2002, 6:44 AM
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Are you serious? "Spain" was no more "unusually evil" than anyone else I mentioned! I guess I thought it would be clear that I was following the flow of the conversation (which was, I believe, the justification of murder by religious 'devotion') I intended my referencing Spain to be an example, which most people associate (as you illustrated in attacking such generalizations) with the grand Inquisitions (which aren't limited to Spain). People often recognize Spain as a country who relinquished papal discretion to the government and allowed inquisitions to become political instead.
I don't think that your aggression is necessary or even validated by my post. I think that you have a pretty clear agenda against my "f---ing Anglocentric view." Whatever dude, I agree with more of Catholocism than you think. Obviously there are certain flaws one can come to in any avenue of thought, and we all know those of both Protestant and Catholic views.
Get off the 'roids and then ask me to fairly criticize "Anglocentricism" and I'll do a better job than you would. The problem is that it works but as was once wisely said- "Festina Lente." SOME of these Spanish Catholics were great examples of this while just as you can rightfully accuse the other side, some didn't.
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wildtrail
Nov 12, 2002, 7:46 AM
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dynamic,
hobbs and camhead have it.
There is nothing more true than this statement:
More people have been killed in the NAME of and FOR god. Period.
Religion has been the ULTIMATE evil throughout it's existence. The Catholic church has tried to control the world more than once, puritans, crusades, inquisitions, people burned at the stake, etc.
End of TRUE statement.
I feel religion is full of shit. It's just a mind controlling form of government. PERIOD!
Read the Gospel of Thomas and SEE the way it was supposed to be. No church, no rules, no bull shit. If you are a christian.
I am not. I have renounced it based on the fact it is full of shit. Anything NOT promoting FREE THOUGHT, has no room in my life, or those I bring into it.
Steve
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howitzer
Nov 12, 2002, 3:12 PM
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Amen my brother Steve
A few questions here...
Quote:Crusades were under a "Christian" banner but I don't think that you can legitimately place them truly under Christian motive, let alone Christian ethos
Why not? give some logic to this statement so that I can understand why the crusades just SEEMED to be a Christian thing, but weren't really deep down... or whatever that statement means. Sorry that statement is not so OBVIOUS to me, either!
Quote:The motives for killing people have generally been more political
In some cases, sure - but could one not argue that many of these political movements (such as the nazis) were deeply seeded by religion? Hitler was in fact quite religious - and his MISUNDERSTANDINGS of religion are one of the main reasons he didn't like Jewish people. He did not believe Jesus was a Jew, and he thought the Jews murdered Jesus.
So politics, it seems to me, has a deep rooting in religion. That is not to say that all killings and wars etc. are due to religion - but I think it's fairly easy for most to see that religion is a large part of global conflict and killing in HIS name (who ever he or she may be).
And most 'psychos' who go around killing people at random will be found to be either deeply religious and delusional in some way, or part of a cult that 'made' them kill(cults are not far off from a religion if you ask me).
Joel had some good points, and I think if I didn't see religion as so corrupt and contradictory I would have an easier time accepting it into my life.
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jarhead118
Nov 12, 2002, 3:20 PM
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I am sure satan loves you non believers. And when you have to resort to belittling and cussing to be the backbone of your arguement then no one of intelligence is impressed. I appreciated the good discussion you offered Dynamic. I feel sorry and pity ...well you can probably guess who I mean.
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howitzer
Nov 12, 2002, 3:25 PM
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Give it a rest. If you're not gonna provide any insight to the discussion then leave it alone.
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thomasribiere
Nov 12, 2002, 7:41 PM
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About the Crusades :
"Faith rapidly ceased to be the inspiration for the Crusades. Other reasons took over : taste for adventure, territorial or mercantile worries."
First Crusade (1096-1099) : in order to free the Holy Land.
Fifth Crusade (1217-1221) : preceded by the Crusade of the Children where thausends of young German and French pilgrims died of exhaustion on teh way to the Holy Land .
Sixth Crusade (1229) inspired by Emperor Friedrich II who negociated with the Sultan of Egypt the cities of Jerusalem, Bethleem, Nazareth and the access roads.
Free but close translation from "LE PETIT ROBERT", french serious dictionnary.
Well, I learned a lotta things by reading it.
About God and Gods : in the hellenistic and latin religions, Gods were serial killers, as a mirror of the society.
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lilred
Nov 12, 2002, 7:59 PM
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i've struggled with chrisian beliefes for the last few years...
i was raised catholic and went to a lutheran school...
now i'm leaning more toward my own "religion"...meghanism...(i'm still partial to the norman religon too)
i don't even know if i can call myself a christian anymore due to all the s--- that goes on (most recently, the whole harry potter book burning thing)...it seems like christians are hypocrits...
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