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socaliforniaclimber
Nov 12, 2002, 5:59 AM
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jhwnewengland - I still think that you would be spending too much time taking too many precausions. Sounds like a major pain in the ass and messy too, clipping all those loops into your belt. For future reference I will knot my rope as I climb every 10-20 ft. to "play it safe" on the more challenging climbs.
And the "you will most likely die" comment is a bit melodramic don't you think? I can't imagine what you would say to people who solo without a rope?
[ This Message was edited by: socaliforniaclimber on 2002-11-11 22:01 ]
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passthepitonspete
Nov 12, 2002, 8:21 AM
Post #27 of 67
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Uh, Mike?
Hel-LOW-hoe?
MIKE!
Pay frickin' attention here, or you will surely end up dead.
The Tibloc is designed for emergency use only. Before you start re-inventing the wheel and offering advice that is absolutely and emphatically unsafe, why don't you start by reading the manufacturer's catalogue?
The reason the Tibloc is unsafe in this situation is that it will shred your sheath and possibly cut your rope! That little bugger has sharper teeth than the rats that chewed through Warren Harding's ropes on The Nose.
Should you choose to use a toothed ascender for toprope belaying, which is not recommended by Dr. Piton, you should do so with fear and trembling. Much better to use something like a Gibbs ascender
A prusik [or better, a klemheist] will not hold a fall - if you drop any distance onto it, it will slide down the rope and melt
It is a well-known fact that the Soloist does not hold upside-down falls. The guy who died in the helicopter gurney that crashed into the trees in Yosemite this May ended up in that gurney because he first fell upside-down onto a Soloist
A sliding clove hitch and backup knots may be almost completely impracticable for toprope free climbing, but at least you will stay alive
Ditto for a Grigri and backup
Though I've never personally used one, I believe a Silent Partner would work well here, but I am unable to advise that because I have not read the manufacturer's catalogue [HINT]
Voice of Don Cherry:
"Now I want you kids to pay attention here...."
This is one of the most useful teaching posts you will ever read, so LISTEN UP and you may live to tell the tale.
The advice you have read here about using the Tibloc as a self-belay device on toprope is WRONG. What Mike has done is something incredibly stupid - he has invented a climbing system that could well kill him.
But even more frightening is Mike's REACTION to what others have written. Herein lies the lesson.
Noshoesnoshirt wrote,
Quote:"I've shredded the sheaths on a static 11 mil and a dynamic 10.5, both with the Tibloc, both while using it as a back-up ascender on rope solos. No dynamic loading, I just stepped on the sucker and it ripped a big burr in my sheath. Very stimulating when you're a ways off the ground."
Now when you have no name like noshoes [check his profile] around here it also means you have no credibility, for only with identity can you have credibility. However he [she?] just happens to be correct.
Now, kids, here you have read a personal experience describing how using this very setup will cut the sheath on your rope.
What was Mike's reaction?
Mike wrote,
Quote:"Well, that's some good advice and great input but I did do some research and spoke with a couple of guys that used Tiblocs regularly and didn't seem to experience many rope chewing problems."
Oh really? This is an interesting way to do research when your life depends on it. Who are these guys? What level of expertise do they have? Obviously not much if they are using this device in this manner. "Many" rope chewing problems?? Having any rope chewing problems should be your first clue.
Now, here is the part that really burned my ass!
Jan Wellford [a man with a name and hence some credibility in my eye] points out that tying backup knots is not hoakey [sic] - it's fricking FUNDAMENTAL, and how does Mike reply?
Quote:"jhwnewengland - I still think that you would be spending too much time taking too many precausions. [sic] Sounds like a major pain in the ass and messy too, clipping all those loops into your belt. For future reference I will knot my rope as I climb every 10-20 ft. to "play it safe" on the more challenging climbs. And the "you will most likely die" comment is a bit melodramic don't you think?
[emphasis]
Kids, you must always ALWAYS tie a backup knot when you solo! Failure to do so can and will cost you your life!
There is no such thing as taking too many precautions when your life is on the line.
Now, what is the problem here?
The problem is twofold - first of all, Mike has invented an unsafe system, but secondly and potentially disasterously, he has failed to heed the advice of others who actually do know what they are talking about!
Kids, before you accept advice from anyone, especially here on the frickin' internet which is rife with climbing theorists of all kinds,
CHECK THEIR CREDENTIALS.
Too many people purport to know stuff that they really don't know. Be extremely careful who you accept climbing advice from!
Please note that I have never said that Mike was or is stupid.
But there is a very real possibility that Mike IS indeed stupid, however that will be determined by what Mike does next.
For instance, if Mike ever again topropes using a Tibloc and does not tie a backup knot, I would have no other choice to conclude that he is quite stupid indeed.
But I hope not to make that conclusion.
Mike, as you read this, I hope you are twisting and writhing in pain. I hope your face turns blue and blood pours out of your ears. Because this will give you some indication of the state in which we might well have found your body at the base of the crag after your Tibloc cut through your rope.
I am still steaming over that bit about being overly melodramatic!
So rather than having the final word, I will leave it to a chap by the name of Joe Ivy.
Joe was a lot like Mike, in fact when you read the story that I am about to link you to, you too may be as amazed as I am at just how much Mike really is like Joe!
The similarities are startling and uncanny.
Just like Mike, Joe invented his own climbing system.
Just like Mike, Joe used a toothed ascender to belay himself.
And most significantly, Joe either did not receive or did not listen to the advice of climbers more in the know than him.
Just like Mike.
The reason I spend hours writing this stuff is to keep you alive.
If you want to stay alive, then please click here to read about what happened to Joe Ivy.
I am Dr. Piton,
and beneath this crusty exterior is a heart that really does care, and is trying to teach you stuff so you DO NOT DIE.
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apollodorus
Nov 12, 2002, 8:57 AM
Post #28 of 67
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There is alot of information about roped soloing here at RC.COM.
Using a toothed ascender, especially when there is a risk of long falls, is not safe.
It's more like:
"How To Turn C1 into A5 Death"
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fishypete
Nov 12, 2002, 9:08 AM
Post #29 of 67
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My hands are in a cold sweat.
I CANNOT believe that this thread nearly reached two pages before the TOTAL AND UTTER STUPIDITY of this system was exposed in a brutal fashion.
Backup knots are "too many precausions"????
Backup knots sound "Hoakey"????
You GOTTA BE JOKING!! They are essential!
Soft warnings about how this "is not the best system" just dont cut it in this situation.
Trusting your life to a single Tibloc (or anything for that matter) is pure INSANITY!!!
Especially when the device is as temperamental as a tibloc (yes they do have one of the highest rates of rope shredding!)
The Good Dr. has already hinted that the next post by socaliforniaclimber will say a lot about him. I agree.
And I would go one step further. I would say that his next response must include an amendment to the first post of this thread.
PLEASE add a disclaimner saying that this system has now been evaluated and found to be a DEATH TRAP.
BUT! Please leave the thread as it stands. It holds great value as a way of highlighting many of the dangerous issues associated with rope soloing.
And always remember - internet info must always be thoroughly evaluated before you put it into practise, especially when the price for getting it wrong is DEATH.
Play it safe. Do your research.
Cheers
Fishy.
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socaliforniaclimber
Nov 12, 2002, 10:00 AM
Post #30 of 67
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Ok, this is where i got my first opinion of using a tibloc as an ascender: gearreview.com In it, it states the following comments:
"My first reaction to the pins was that they would cause some hideous wear on the rope. However, the guys at Petzl assured me that the Tibloc actually causes less wear than their other ascenders.
Although micro ascenders are recommended for emergency use, they are getting used for almost every purpose that a full size ascender would be used. Climbers are even using them on big walls."
From Petzl:
"You can use it as an ascender, as part of an anti-return hauling system, as part of a simple pulley system, or to climb a rope."
It is true that, in doing more research I found comments regarding "emergency use only, however you can use it as an ascender...".
Also, that comment made regarding a situation of flipping upsidedown and the ascender not functioning does not apply to a toothed ascender although I do beleive it is great advice for devices for which that would apply.
Even though some of the replies were bitter, it was bitter sweet. In a brief time I heard some very valueable constructive critisism and I would reccomend that anyone using a tibloc ascender read through the whole section and construct an opinion of their own.
Even though I am convinced that there are risks involved I believe the risks are very resonable.
1) I dont think that my rope will shred being that I am using a thicker carabiner applying a sufficent amount of force on the rope to prevent play...which is what causes shred, not the device in itself.
2) I dont believe that the device will break or fail if I take a fall, even if I fall upside-down.
3) I am not reinventing the wheel. This device is called the Tibloc ASCENDER! Get it.
I believe that this system prevents rope shredding so what could else could go wrong? Besides rope shred, I don't beleive anyone has offered examples of what could go wrong using a tibloc. That is the beauty of an ascender with simplicity. It is so simple there are literally no parts to fail. This logic has made me feel much more safer using an ascender at all.
The only risk Ive read here is rope shred . Without rope shred what else can go wrong? Any examples, besides rope shredding, of things going wrong?
Please let me know.
[ This Message was edited by: socaliforniaclimber on 2002-11-12 02:04 ]
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cass
Nov 12, 2002, 11:16 AM
Post #31 of 67
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this thread is sooo stupid for want of a better word
as fishypete said “Backup knots They are essential!” – even I knew that - duh.
socaliforniaclimber said backup knots “Sounds like a major pain in the ass..." – well you will get a pain in your ass and much more besides.
I hope people take note of what passthepitonspete said – this is the internet afterall.
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twrock
Nov 12, 2002, 11:33 AM
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Mike, it only takes one thing to go wrong and you will die! If your rope shreds and subsequently breaks, you will die!
Why? Because your system has no backup.
Maybe we've convinced you to tie a backup, no? Where did you tie it? In the rope your Tibloc is attached to, below the Tibloc? Then you still will die because your rope can shred through before you reach your backup knot!
Please go back and review the manual that came with your Tibloc. If we have the same manual, you will notice that unlike the Basic, Ascension and Shunt, Petzl does not show a climber "climbing" rock while using the Tibloc as a belay device. You have stated correctly that it is an ASCENDER. That means that you use it on the rope to ascend. Unless the manufacturer indicates that it can be used as a solo belay device, you need to be 100% sure you know what you are doing if you use it for other than its intended purpose. Look at diagrams 2, 4 & 5 in the manual. Have you noticed that the manufacturer wants you to apply direct pressure on the Tibloc with your hand in order to set it onto the rope? You can not do this in the event of a fall. The likelihood of your rope shredding is increased because you are not using it as the manufacturer recommends.
Mike, your system is fatally flawed, at least up to this point in the conversation.
Here's hoping you will listen and live to climb many more days.
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timpanogos
Nov 12, 2002, 12:21 PM
Post #33 of 67
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Mike as I mentioned in your other thread:
umm, it's my understanding that the preferred method of backing up an EMERGENCY ascent (i.e. your tibloc) is not to try knots in your rope that trail behind you as you climb, but would be to tie a figure 8 in a bite every 15 or so and clip it to a locking biner attached to a load bearing harness tie-in point. In your system, if your ascender was to disconnect from the rope for whatever reason bombproof is more like bombs away.
Be very careful here
I also found this petzl page very interesting
The hidden danger in via ferratas
(BWT pete, is via ferratas French for standing tall in the saddle?)
The point here is that you can generate incredible forces in a very short fall. And realize that in an ascending situation, the closer you get to the top anchor the higher the fall factor becomes.
P.S. socaliforniaclimber - did you even read Pete's link to the Joe Ivy death report? WAKE-UP
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2002-11-12 05:26 ]
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2002-11-12 08:21 ]
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fishypete
Nov 12, 2002, 12:25 PM
Post #34 of 67
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Mike, you now have 2 separate threads in which people are telling you this is a bad idea.
The Tibloc is an ascender. Correct.
It is not suitable for self belay. Even on a top-rope, or even with a big carabiner, this is not the right use.
Free-climbing is not the same as ascending, you are not concentrating on the device at all times. It is easy to miss that the tibloc hasn't fed properly, and you are now looking at a much longer than expected fall.
Petzl do not descibe this application in the manual.
However they do say that a proper ascender (for example the Basic) is suitable for use in a top-rop self-belay system
There are 2 reasons for this difference.
1)The Tibloc must be used on a rope that is under tension so it feeds properly (this is descibed in the manual), and
2)it should also be used where you slide it up and hold the bottom against the rope with your thumb for each placement (as is also shown in the manual, and menionted by twrock above).
The Tibloc does not feed as reliably as a proper ascender. It requires constant checking at every move. It is prone to only grab with a few teeth when weight is applied and its orientation isn't perfect.
This is the reason petzl amended the instructions that come with the device, adding that it is necessary to clamp the Tibloc with your thumb at the base as you apply weight.
You also need to re-read the quotes you posted. At no time do they advocate the use you have suggested.
Gear-review says it causes less wear - maybe so. However that is completely different from its ability to grab reliably with all its teeth. As stated above, this is the reason Petzl doesn't list top-rope self belay in the accepted uses section of the manual for the Tibloc.
Please step back and survey the two threads you have going. Realise that there are many people here, some of which have many thousands more hours of experience ascending rope than you do, suggesting to you that your system is flawed. Fatally flawed.
These people are not trying to argue just for the sake of it. These are accepted truths they are telling you.
Please take it on board. Your system will eventually fail, and you will end up dead.
We dont want that.
Cheers
Fishy.
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socaliforniaclimber
Nov 12, 2002, 1:25 PM
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Well, I can say that using a 10.5mm rope and a snug biner, the rope self feeds for the most part and grabs well. To be completely honest it performed incredibly...far beyond my expectation. With the appropriate tension applied there was no way only only a few teeth were grabbing. By the way it looked, they all were grabbing.
I will reitterate that using the device without the proper biner to rope tension could tear up the rope. For instance, I have one biner that is nearly half the thickness as the one im using on my petzl. The rope would get so damn torn up using that thing. Also, if someone had a thin rope like a 9mm, that would reduce rope tension as well.
Im not trying to be argumentative. But I still pose the question. If there is proper force applied, as in my case, what could go wrong? If I have the right tension setting that neither chews the rope upon fall while at the same time feeding itself through what is the problem?
I will say this though. I will pick up a petzl basic and test that device. If it works as well as my petzl I will switch over to that more traditional ascender. However, ascending a device with movable, wearable parts is a little sketchy on a solo-ascent. Especially when there are inner working parts you cant see. However, the basic looks...well pretty basic.
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timpanogos
Nov 12, 2002, 1:31 PM
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Mike,
If you get a true ascender notice that the manual will warn you that the rope can pop out of the ascender Also notice that with the backup system that you used, if this were to happen you will fall to the deck you must tie your backup knots to your harness, not just let them hang on the rope.
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freudian
Nov 12, 2002, 1:44 PM
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I haven't read all the posts.. but...
The Silent Partner
^^ its about 250$, but it's probably one of the better soloing devices out there, if you use it properly.
Do your reasearch, learn about it, and then make your own decision on wheather to use it or not.
FREUDIAN
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joel_gibbel
Nov 12, 2002, 1:45 PM
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I like the Petzl Shunt for toprope soloing. It can be used on a doubled rope, and it has no teeth that could damage the rope. It glides smoothly up the rope, and is also useful for backing up rappels. The instructions warn against using it on overhangs, but besides that it rocks.
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aelita
Nov 12, 2002, 4:00 PM
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The Ushba has been mentioned here but here is the link to the product itself - Ushba. Yes it is russian made, yes its titanium and its a damn good piece of equipment that I have had a chance to trust my life to. granted I am russian myself so i might be a little biased
climb safe
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valygrl
Nov 12, 2002, 4:52 PM
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Hey Mike,
I think the bit you are missing is that in a top-rope solo fall you will SHOCK LOAD the 'belay' device (the tibloc, in your case). Ascenders are not meant to be shock loaded, they are for body weight. It's not about catching a few teeth, or setting the device on the rope, or slippage, or the ability to concentrate on the device and set it properly, etc. It's about the FORCE of the FALL - you don't FALL on an ascender.
In any case we could (and I'm sure will) debate this all day, but why don't you just pay attention to what the manufacturer says this thing is for - ascending, not belaying.
Get a partner. Get a proper solo device, intended for that use by the manufacturer.
Or you could be the winner in the Darwin Awards.
Read the Joe Ivy link. Think. We are trying to keep you from dying.
Anna
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passthepitonspete
Nov 12, 2002, 5:50 PM
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The purpose of this post is not merely to talk about the technical aspects of using a Tibloc in an unsafe application - it is even more to do with attitude in situations such as these.
Your attitude can be the difference between life and death when you are bringing it to the hostility of the crag. "This ain't no weinie roast!" If you would like to roast weinies, go climb in a gym.
The parallels between what Mike says, and what Joe Ivy says, are both striking and frightening! You won't frickin' believe it! It's like Joe's words are returning from the grave!
If everyone reading this post, especially Mike, has not yet read about The Death of Joe Ivy, then PLEASE DO SO NOW!
Joe died by inventing a climbing system that did not work. While Mike's system is not as horrendously bad as Joe's, Mike's system is still unsafe.
The reason I want you do read about Joe's death is because it was caused in part by an attitude very similar to Mike's. And it is attitudes like Joe's that get you killed in the hills.
Please read it - I don't sit up til 4 a.m. writing these things for nothin', eh?
As for the Tibloc, how unsafe is "unsafe"?
Let's check the Tibloc technical bulletin produced by Petzl. [Why the hell is it always me who has to dig these things out?! Why the hell would someone purport to devise a system without direct reference to the manufacturer's specs?!]
You can click here to download the Petzl Tibloc technical bulletin. It's an eight-page post that you read in Acrobat.
Let's take a look at the highlights copied below. Please note that the bold highlights are mine. Dr. Piton hallmark.]
"The TIBLOC is for use on single rope of diameter between 8 and 11 mm, and of kernmantel construction (dynamic, semi-static or static) in conformance with the EN and UIAA standards. For security, whenever the risk of a fall exists, rope of a minimum diameter of 10 mm must be used."
This is incorrect. What they mean to say is, "where the risk of a fall exists, dynamic rope ... must be used."
But so far, so good. If you look at the specs on rope damage, it looks OK for large diameter dynamic ropes in fall factor situations of one or less.
"Precautions
The TIBLOC is an emergency rope clamp/grab for occasional use. Always check that the device jams immediately. The rope must always be under tension."
[Hel-LOW-hoe? -Ed.]
"This device is not designed to stop severe falls. Absorption: remember that the energy of a fall is absorbed by the rope. As you approach the anchor point, the capacity of the rope to absorb impact lessens, and eventually reaches zero."
Sounds like you'd better not fall near the top!
Now, take a look at the data showing when the rope can be damaged and when the rope can break.
According to their stats, fall factors of one or less on thick dynamic rope shouldn't damage the rope.
Shouldn't.
Uh-oh! Am I shooting myself in the foot here? Is it possible that the Tibloc may actually work in this situation?
Perhaps you, like Ibsen, believe that "the majority is always wrong." [It usually is, but this is not one of those times.]
Now, before you answer that question, there is another question that you need to ask yourself first.
Do you have the knowledge, experience, wisdom, technical expertise and balls to write about about a system [here in front of your peers] whose application is not specifically mentioned in the manufacturer's specs? Furthermore, are you prepared to say that a manufacturer's published data may in fact be wrong?
Do you know what the difference is between knowledge and wisdom? In Mike's case, for example, it might be the difference between having five years' experience, and having one year's experience five times over. You will see by reading about Joe Ivy that in his case, he was among the latter.
The purpose of Dr. Piton's posts is to get you to THINK, dammit! It is not intended to be a personal attack on anyone [I have learned my lesson]. I select my words very carefully, and am frequently purposely inflammatory in order to better attract your attention.
For instance, never once have I actually said I think Mike's behaviour is stupid. I have merely suggested that this may be the case. And I have asked you to draw comparisons between Mike and Joe. And Joe really was stupid.
Also, please note the distinction between my attack on behaviour - which I believe to be legit - compared to an attack on one's character [sic] which I believe to be deciptfull [sic] and underhanded. It appears that Mike "gets this" as he accepts our criticism as bittersweet, valuable and constructive. Mike's accepting our comments is "knowledge" - but wisdom is the application of knowledge. [HINT]
There is another thing I want you to do.
Here is your Dr. Piton Homework Assignment
I want you to read about how Joe Ivy died, and right here in this very post I want people to write down ONE thing that hits you about how Mike is doing precisely the same sort of thing that Joe did. As I have remarked, the parallels are striking and scary, and in a sick sort of way - amusing. You should sub-categorize your comment into either an attitude error or a technical error. If you think that Mike is being incredibly stupid for instance, and this may or may not be the case, here is your opportunity to state your opinion.
Now, the bottom line here [besides]extraordinarily valuable lesson concerning attitude] is,
"is the Tibloc safe and a good idea to use in the application Mike has described? Is it in fact the Better Way? Did Petzl actually forget to mention this particular application, one which they did indeed mention in their other technical bulletins?"
I draw your attention to the technical bulletins for the Petzl B54 Microcender [which is not recommended on icy or muddy ropes], and the Petzl B17 Ascension and B18 Basic, whose technical bulletin specifically shows this application. You should also have a look at the technical bulletin for the Petzl B03 Shunt, which may well be the Device of Choice in this particular application. I suspect it is, but reserve judgement until I actually get my hands on one of the things. The Shunt is highly recommended for rappel backup.
You can click here for the index to Petzl technical bulletins that I have been using. You should bookmark this page, as it is ETS!
So here is my summation. I - Dr. Piton - believe that Mike's application is emphatically UNSAFE and should be avoided at all costs, just like you should avoid doses of clap, working, climbing before noon, and marriage. [Further exposition in these areas may be found in the index of Dr. Piton RANTS, which is fundamental reading for Dr. Piton aficionados, or anyone else with a lot of time to waste and nothing better to do]
In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb even further - I'm going to suggest to you that Petzl is WRONG.
To suggest such a thing, like big wall solo climbing, requires either great sagacity or great stupidity, or most likely some of each, which you will begin to understand should you happen to find yourself alone on the side of a big wall.
See, it's one thing to replicate an experiment in the lab to test to see if falling on a Tibloc will shred your rope or not. In their controlled environment, evidently it did not.
However the crag is not the lab, and a number of people have described how the Tibloc has shredded their rope.
I'm going to tell you that something like this should be added to the Tibloc technical bulletin:
"The Petzl Tibloc is not recommended for toprope self-belay because it has very sharp teeth, and may well damage the sheath on your rope, and possibly even cut it.
We at Petzl made a mistake by not specifically mentioning this in the Tibloc technical bulletin, but as you know, the Tibloc is new and we haven't figured the thing out competely yet. It usually takes us a few years before we actually get it right. Because as you well know, we at Petzl have been wrong before, and not just once either. In several instances we have published information that was dangerous and wrong, and later had to issue warnings of correction.
This is one of those times.
If you are stupid enough to use this thing in the application of solo toprope self belay, then you are probably stupid enough not to know that you should always tie a backup knot, which in this case might not matter anyway if you happen to cut your own rope.
You can click here if you would like to see an example of where we at Petzl have been wrong before.
If this is insufficient, you can click here to see another example of where we at Petzl have been wrong again.
Further examples of stupid things we have said, written and invented are available, and if you want to find them, you should Ask Dr. Piton."
I am Dr. Piton,
and I just suggested to the world's leading manufacturer of climbing and caving gear that they are wrong
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tradaddict
Nov 12, 2002, 5:50 PM
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Guys, i'd say you were wasting your time on this, I mean, come on, this guy actually said "I don't see what else could go wrong", but i've actually learned some interesting things from the thread.
Deirdre
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gumbobob
Nov 12, 2002, 6:01 PM
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i use a gibbs ascender and a thick static rope. the weight of the rope will push itself through the ascender if you have it setup correctly and the climb is not that overhanging. I use it on a 13a way out in the desert because my partner is hurt. Carry a figure eight on you because the static rope will be too thick for an atc.
note of caution (learned from experience):
Do NOT use your regular rope--9mm is way to small and you will go on huge falls before the device engages
do NOT grab the rope when you go on these big falls-you cannot stop yourself, the device will not engage, and you will get painful rope burn.
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lox
Nov 12, 2002, 6:10 PM
Post #44 of 67
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Registered: Oct 2, 2002
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Once, I took my crashpad to teh cliff by myself.
I climbed and climbed, for hours and hours.
I wasted not one second dicking about with a rope, setting an anchor, tying a knot or double checking all those things again.
Crux after crux, I tested the very limit of my physical ability.
I couldn't even tell you how many feet and feet of rock I climbed that day, but I do know this about that day:
NOT ONE PERSON IN THIS FORUM COULD POSSIBLY TELL ME I WAS DOING ANYTHING WRONG.
Throw pad down, climb. Repeat until exhaustion.
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mugnyte
Nov 12, 2002, 6:22 PM
Post #45 of 67
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I spent a few weeks with the dog and a local crag (Rocky Butte, Silver Bullet wall) soling this summer. It was fun. A clove hitch and some knots was enough to get me started on trad leads by myself. Balls or not, it works.
BUT REALLY, if I had known, I'd be on here talking up some partners. Once I got some calls from local folks to meet up whenever I could, I had much more fun.
To post in such a busy site the art of soloing is a bit of a paradox. Why not just post a Partner ad?
I'm not against soloing, but its been done so many ways, you could find people who just tied knots and clipped 'em all the way up without any devices. Who cares - do as you like, but climbing with a person is more than double the fun.
Now if that only worked for sprained ankles! Anyone got an extra foot?
mug
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wlderdude
Nov 12, 2002, 7:34 PM
Post #46 of 67
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I wrote big elaborate post, but it got lost somehow. Oh, well, this post is too long anyways.
For Petzl's instructions on how to self belay go here. Click on Belaying, then self belaying in the menus on the left.
http://petzl.com/petzl/publicActiv?id=ESC
Note that the grigri is used only as a rappel device and the ascender is the belay device.
Also note how the ascender is clipped in. The biner goes through the big holes at the top, with the rope passing through the biner. There is no way for the ascender to come off of the rope without removing the biner! It also ensures that the rope feeds in straight. No matter how you pull on the rope, it will feed into the camming mechanism straight! This is important if you fall upside down, but it is still a problem if the slack end keeps the cam from working. Don't climb overhanging routes!
Chest ascenders (Croll), Tiblocs, and shunts do not provide this security and I would never use them for self belaying. Okay, maybe in an emergency, but it would take more of an emergency than a pretty day without a climbing patner.
As for the teeth damaging the rope, yeah, it can happen! But consider this.
Teeth should not hold the weight, the camming mechanism does. If the camming mechanism does not work for some reason (invered fall for instance), the teeth will grab the sheath, arrest the fall and damage the sheath. Only a severe lead fall could produce forces capable of cutting the core of the rope (as that caver Joe showed us when he lead climbed on a static rope with a Croll).
Now lets consider toothless ascenders. If the camming mechanism fails to arrest the fall, there is no back up, but you are riding a pulley.
Ropes are expensive, but so is climbing. Risk to the rope is insignificant in comparison with risk of bodily harm. If you love your super fancy rope, just buy an inexpensive dymanic rope for use on your ascenders. Get over your fear of the teeth. Don't spend $70 on a grigri when the tool of choice is only $40.
Some people think that using toothed tools is more dangerous than defying manufacturer's explicit limitations. I hope that most people are wise enough to see through the foolishness of such thinking.
Use that grigri to rappel down, then belay yourself with a Basic or Ascention (or DMM equivalents).
[ This Message was edited by: wlderdude on 2002-11-12 11:38 ]
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flamer
Nov 12, 2002, 9:03 PM
Post #47 of 67
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Registered: Oct 22, 2002
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I would like to point out that If you use this tibloc death system tying backup knots behind you as you climb WILL NOT SAVE YOU!The danger being if you shockload this device it very likely will cut the rope! If you are anchored to the top of the cliff and you cut the rope above your backup knots they will still be tyed to your crumpled body at the base! Moral of the story: Do not "invent" new methods without proper research and or know how! Think your Whole system through- Even backups sometimes need backups!
Don't die!
Josh
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dembrunjs
Nov 12, 2002, 9:49 PM
Post #48 of 67
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Registered: Aug 7, 2002
Posts: 109
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Can we split Socal's gear after he plummets?
Peace
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stevematthys
Nov 12, 2002, 9:51 PM
Post #49 of 67
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Registered: Sep 13, 2000
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yea, i call his tibloc....
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tradclimber2
Nov 12, 2002, 9:56 PM
Post #50 of 67
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Registered: Jan 9, 2001
Posts: 132
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Just another item you might want to look at, (I mentioned it before but no comments noted), is the Ushba ascender. Here is the web site for it. http://www.ushba.com/catalog/access.html
It does not have teeth like the tibloc (I agree, btw, that the tibloc should be used for emergency only) and works similar to the gri gri, but better for TR solo. One of my partners uses it and it works REALLY GOOD for TR solo. I was amazed when I saw it the first time. Anyone else use this?
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