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Maddhatter
Dec 25, 2008, 12:38 AM
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Chipping is great!!!
Just make sure you tell all the other climbers that use the area what you are doing, where you are doing it and what time. I'm 100% sure this will all get worked out. 
TRUST ME. 
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drunkenmaster
Dec 25, 2008, 2:43 AM
Post #302 of 323
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caughtinside is a hipocrit. and is obviously the fat weak ball-less pussy that knows nothing about cleaning loose rock from a route. if you want to talk smack to me you - do it to my face - but youd better be ready for what will come after. i admit it was "aggressive cleaning" but that is how routes get put up on less than perfect rock - he should know that - he has climbed at dtsa and auburn. those routes had things broken off all over them not just a few plates that were hollow and would have broke off after a few pulls on them but almost every hold. i think he might have even helped put up some of those routes. they are choss. just like his brain. caughtinside: you can find me on my website - send me a personal email - i will meet you sometime and school you in person. most climbers have agreed with me that chipping and drilling is over the line of what is acceptable - aggresive cleaning is not.
*merry xmas - to all.
(This post was edited by drunkenmaster on Dec 25, 2008, 4:07 AM)
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zeke_sf
Dec 25, 2008, 6:31 AM
Post #303 of 323
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Yeah, you're right that Caughtinside has put up some chossass choss lines. But what are you going to do? It's the Bay Area, home of only fat weak ball-less pussy-asses who still think it's junior high and meeting after school at the ball field to open-hand slap each other in the mudflaps is the solution to a debate. Or maybe they'll just shove each other in the chest WHILE YELLING AT EACH OTHER ON THE INTERWEBS? Either way, you two douchenozzles can guzzle some recycled holiday ale straight from my jizz dispenser. MERRY XMAS!!!
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caughtinside
Dec 25, 2008, 7:52 AM
Post #304 of 323
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Chris you are a silly illiterate wanker and I love you man!!! Keep drinking smoking and cranking in 09!!! It was a joke!!
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tombvortx
Dec 25, 2008, 11:02 PM
Post #305 of 323
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no in all three cases
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drunkenmaster
Dec 26, 2008, 2:18 AM
Post #306 of 323
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right on - i just came on here to be nice also being its xmas but you frkn beat me to it. now lets talk crap to this zeke geak - just kidding. i thought we had gotten over all that crap talking along time ago anyway - i even noticed roughster and i sort of trying to get along awhile back - that might be good. very glad you were the bigger man before i had to be. i have a hard time taking jokes from someone i dont know - or have we met? either way now when we see each other - beers are on me! i have a broken leg right now and am a little more bummed and grumpy than usual. i hope this thread dies a quick death now that we all agree chipping is lame. i shouldnt have called the thread starter ball-less since he didnt know any better. but all who said yes - please learn a lesson from the majority. anyway - MERRY FRKN XMAS TO ALL!
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saxfiend
Dec 26, 2008, 4:29 AM
Post #307 of 323
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dingus wrote: jt512 wrote: % of respondents answering "no no no": 95% % of above who should have responded: "I'm an ignorant 'noob noob noob'": 100% % of above who ignored the realistic responses posted by actual route developers: 100% % of above regularly climb on manufactured holds and are utterly oblivious to it: 100% Jay Hah! I'm above you all, VonLumpHausen. I know all too well the little ethical DimeBags yall sell to get yer fixes hahahahahahahaha! All sport routes are chipped, that's the dirty little secret. I still say, given the context of the offered choices nonono. Now feel free to qualify. DMT
What's the best shoe for climbing on chipped routes? I did a search but couldn't find the answer to this important question.
JL
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drucilla
Dec 28, 2008, 4:05 AM
Post #308 of 323
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no, no, prolly not.
but...
gotta consider proximity to developed climbing, though. a batshit-splattered cave behind somebodys garage in ohio might be a great training tool for locals- why let it go unutilized if youre deperate for realestate.
also- quarries are acceptable chipperies...
and now for the puritanical response.......
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suilenroc
Dec 28, 2008, 4:29 AM
Post #309 of 323
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No way was I going to read this entire thread. In fact, I couldn't even make it through the O.P... Where the feck is the poll?
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waltersiebert
Dec 29, 2008, 1:21 AM
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In Arco (Lake Garda, Northern Italy) is a nice 4-pitch-route, about 5.6, with 1 crux 5.10. There are many many routes 5.10, but only very few 5.6. Somebody drilled a hole and put 1 artificial handhold in. This route was now a great route 5.6. with one 5.7 crux and many people could climb it. One day the handhold was gone and from now many many parties have to retreat 3 pitches.
I think it was a good idea to put the handhold in. Hundreds of people had a great experience, now they have only 2 routes in this area which they can climb. No climbers who are able to climb 5.10 are interested in this route, it is very boring for them, and has just 1 difficult move. Chipping is just the wrong solution. Why not put in handholds?
So: 1.. No
2. yes
3. No
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Maddhatter
Dec 29, 2008, 1:33 AM
Post #311 of 323
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waltersiebert wrote: In Arco (Lake Garda, Northern Italy) is a nice 4-pitch-route, about 5.6, with 1 crux 5.10. There are many many routes 5.10, but only very few 5.6. Somebody drilled a hole and put 1 artificial handhold in. This route was now a great route 5.6. with one 5.7 crux and many people could climb it. One day the handhold was gone and from now many many parties have to retreat 3 pitches. I think it was a good idea to put the handhold in. Hundreds of people had a great experience, now they have only 2 routes in this area which they can climb. No climbers who are able to climb 5.10 are interested in this route, it is very boring for them, and has just 1 difficult move. Chipping is just the wrong solution. Why not put in handholds? So: 1.. No 2. yes 3. No
Sounds like a great easy first 5.10 to me. Shame some dick couldn't climb it so they put a hold in and ruined the line for others.
IF!!! All in the area say it's ok then fine. If not it will be chopped every time. Why not add holds to all the 5.10's I'm sure there are more people that can climb 5.7 then 5.10.
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zeke_sf
Dec 29, 2008, 7:10 AM
Post #312 of 323
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Maddhatter wrote: waltersiebert wrote: In Arco (Lake Garda, Northern Italy) is a nice 4-pitch-route, about 5.6, with 1 crux 5.10. There are many many routes 5.10, but only very few 5.6. Somebody drilled a hole and put 1 artificial handhold in. This route was now a great route 5.6. with one 5.7 crux and many people could climb it. One day the handhold was gone and from now many many parties have to retreat 3 pitches. I think it was a good idea to put the handhold in. Hundreds of people had a great experience, now they have only 2 routes in this area which they can climb. No climbers who are able to climb 5.10 are interested in this route, it is very boring for them, and has just 1 difficult move. Chipping is just the wrong solution. Why not put in handholds? So: 1.. No 2. yes 3. No Sounds like a great easy first 5.10 to me. Shame some dick couldn't climb it so they put a hold in and ruined the line for others. IF!!! All in the area say it's ok then fine. If not it will be chopped every time. Why not add holds to all the 5.10's I'm sure there are more people that can climb 5.7 then 5.10.
The hold bolted into the wall is a bit cheesy but it got me thinking about a climb like Royal Arches in Yosemite whose fixed line (for the famed pendulum) is a longstanding tradition, keeping a largely 5.7 line at that moderate grade rather than the 5.9/10 grade it would otherwise garner. I can see Walter's point that it's pretty cool to have a moderate line that is 99.99% one grade remain accessible at that grade. Then again, I think Royal Arches has the fixed line more as tradition (wasn't that how the FA put it up?) as well as safety, whereas more moderate leaders should be able to yard through a move on a bolt if they can't pull the move. The irony is the roped aid point probably remains because the climbers who would chop the tat appreciate not having to pull those moves when they solo RA.
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roghman
Dec 29, 2008, 7:28 AM
Post #313 of 323
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No to all three, p;ain and simple.
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Maddhatter
Dec 29, 2008, 7:54 AM
Post #314 of 323
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It's not about one hold for me. Yes the first guy puts in one small hold, Mr.Joe blow sees it and goes "hey that's cool let's put one over here to" and in a few years, it's huge pink buckets with flashing lights. But there climbable and every one can do them. You have to draw a line.
Don't change the rock unless you have to in order to get pro. There are a lot of lines that with one move on aid it changes the over all rating. Corkscrew comes to mind, 5.11 or aid on one bolt and it's 5.9. Classic line if ever there was. Paint your hangers!! Don't rap huge amounts of pink webbing around trees everyone can see!! And never bolt shit to the rock other then pro. Would I chop it? I have done enough road tripping to know different places different rules.
I'm just not a chopper. It does more harm then good to the rock.
(This post was edited by Maddhatter on Dec 29, 2008, 8:11 AM)
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dingus
Dec 29, 2008, 1:44 PM
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The Arco example is specific enough for me to say, sure, in that specific instance, the bolt-on hold doesn't strike me as particularly aggregious.
I'm curious about the Italiano climbing scene, perhaps you could shed some light....
here in America, so long as its public land and 'fixed pro' is allowed, ANYONE can place a bolt. Anyone at all.
And too, anyone else can remove that bolt, at will. There are very, very few regulatory authorities that are involved or are willing to get involved and many of us don't want them involved anyway. No good can come fron democratic route policing, none whatsoever.
So we have here (particularly in the American west) an old Wild West scene where the good intentions of each climber are the only real law in town. And the vigilantte ever holds the hammer in mute threat to chop the living shit out of bolts that violate an area's norms.
The one principle that still holds considerable sway here is the 'first ascent.' We don't cotton (for the most part - sport climbing is different) to subsequent parties physically altering an already established route unless there is considerable community pressure to do so. Even then, in some areas mods still would not be tolerated, no matter what. In others premission to muck with the route should be sought from the FA party.
Now it sounds from your post that Arco is similar in some respects - if a climber is free to place a bolt (or a hold) another climber is free to remove it.
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zeke_sf
Dec 29, 2008, 2:24 PM
Post #316 of 323
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Maddhatter wrote: It's not about one hold for me. Yes the first guy puts in one small hold, Mr.Joe blow sees it and goes "hey that's cool let's put one over here to" and in a few years, it's huge pink buckets with flashing lights. But there climbable and every one can do them. You have to draw a line.
That's a well-greased slope you just described. It sounds like the local ethic there is close enough to yours though. I thought it's an interesting point Walter made because I could see either side of the argument (a rarity for me). Then again, I wouldn't want to be the guy whose crag is that one with the hold bolted on...
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jt512
Dec 29, 2008, 5:09 PM
Post #317 of 323
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dingus wrote: The one principle that still holds considerable sway here is the 'first ascent.' We don't cotton (for the most part - sport climbing is different) to subsequent parties physically altering an already established route...
Sport climbing is no different. Once the route is up, it's not to be altered. An exception is when the original route was botched, then—maybe—adding or moving bolts around will be acceptable. But changing any holds on established route is thought of as vandalism by practically every climber I know.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 29, 2008, 5:14 PM)
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Alphaboth
Dec 29, 2008, 6:44 PM
Post #318 of 323
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It's interesting to analyze the climbers philosophy on the ethics of climbing. Frankly i'm more concerned about my climbing than rock conservation when I'm climbing. If you want to be environmentally concious, pick up your trash, walk or run to the crag, and buy biodegradable cams. Chipping away pieces of a rock may take away from the purity of the sport, but rarely takes away from the beauty of a place. I have no problem climbing a route that was chipped. It's climbing, that's what I like, don't care if it's made made or natural, it's there and it's real, and it's there to climb. In fact I would like to go to a place that was entirely blank rock intially and people have chipped the hell out of it to make a shitload of routes, that'd be sweet, people aren't concerned about climbing natural lines, they just want to climb, it creates a good atomosphere. Having said that there are places not to chip, and it's not cool when people do.
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jeepnphreak
Dec 29, 2008, 7:30 PM
Post #319 of 323
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1. NO if he can't climb it that don't put the rout there.
2. NO rank it at the crux, if it an 11 that rate it so. no need to bring it down to a 5.10.
3. NO on several means. 1 bats inhabit the area, you may be violating habitat of a protected species. and if there are people even the occasional hiker, respect them too. No need to be manufacturing a wall just so a few can climb it. This sound like a good way to start pissing people off and getting climbing areas close to the public. Go some were else.
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roughster
Dec 29, 2008, 7:55 PM
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This thread is what we like to call at work "Atta Boy!" Emails. You know the kind where some Department Head sends an email saying, "Blah blah we accomplished blah blah" and invariable 10-20 emails will follow ranging from "Good Job" to, "I want to feel your balls bouncing on my chin!"
Most of the replies in this thread are of the "I want to feel your balls bouncing on my chin!" variety. It's a crude analogy but, sorry to say it, spot on.
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waltersiebert
Dec 30, 2008, 12:09 AM
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Arco is a community which focuses on outdoor/recreation sports. They established mountainbike routs as well as climbing crags. You find very well bolted beginners and sports climbing areas as well as real adventure big walls (very very rarely repeated if at all).
This route with the one handhold (I think it broke, was not chopped) fits perfectly to this area with lack of multi-pitch easy routs.
There are no clear rules and no authority, I think. Its the local climbers and guides community who cares for the bolts, financed by the community of Arco.
On the Collodri (300m wall behind the campground) you find some bolts but you need a complete rack.
You have a great variety of style in Arco. This is great.
I would really appreciate if somebody builds a 5.7 climb through the collodri. 10 pitches vertical ... would be great fun for many people.
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zeke_sf
Dec 30, 2008, 4:06 PM
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roughster wrote: This thread is what we like to call at work "Atta Boy!" Emails. You know the kind where some Department Head sends an email saying, "Blah blah we accomplished blah blah" and invariable 10-20 emails will follow ranging from "Good Job" to, "I want to feel your balls bouncing on my chin!" Most of the replies in this thread are of the "I want to feel your balls bouncing on my chin!" variety. It's a crude analogy but, sorry to say it, spot on.
It's a crude analogy but you sound like the kind of guy who likes the feeling of balls bouncing off his taint.
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DownstairsB
Feb 22, 2013, 8:06 PM
Post #323 of 323
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1. No
2. Yes in some areas this might be acceptable
3. Only if they own the land. However it would still not be as fun as a natural climb.
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