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burritofiend
Jan 14, 2009, 6:42 PM
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If SLCD's are set in a splitter to hold a downward force, what keeps them from pulling out to the side under the tension of the rope when not fallen on directly?
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shockabuku
Jan 14, 2009, 6:57 PM
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Sling length(s). Multi-directional first piece.
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Johnny_Fang
Jan 14, 2009, 7:06 PM
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fair question.
slings help to keep them from walking, but aren't necessarily needed to keep them from pulling out. there are several reasons, but one of the biggest is that they are "spring loaded" (hence, "SL"CD), which puts an outward force on the rock even without downward pressure.
so, while they won't pull out from the side from one continuous pull, they might "walk" in or out as the rope friction shuffles against it.
i'm bad at explaining things, though, so your best bet is to get one, put in in a crack, and try to pull it out sideways and see what happens.
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kennoyce
Jan 14, 2009, 7:27 PM
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The biggest thing that keeps this from happening is the fact that the cam will rotate to whatever the direction of the pull is. Another key factor is that as soon as there is some force in the intended direction of pull, it dramatically increases the friction between the cam and the rock in any direction.
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burritofiend
Jan 15, 2009, 1:00 AM
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I was just wondering because when reading books I found they tell you to make sure the stem is pointed down or in the direction of the anticipated force. When another piece has been placed above the last placement, the direction of the anticipated force will change.
Thanks for the answers guys.
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camhead
Jan 15, 2009, 1:56 AM
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if it is a true splitter, then the cam should be reasonably multidirectional in the first place; it will hold a downward fall, and it should also hold outward and even sideways pulling. After all, that's why we use cams for this sort of thing rather than a hex.
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vegastradguy
Jan 15, 2009, 2:33 AM
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burritofiend wrote: I was just wondering because when reading books I found they tell you to make sure the stem is pointed down or in the direction of the anticipated force. When another piece has been placed above the last placement, the direction of the anticipated force will change. Thanks for the answers guys.
true, but it will also dramatically reduce the force the piece sees if a fall occurs- basically just rope tension.
that said, the reason you put the stem downward is so that you keep the cam from rotating and thus possibly compromising the placement or having weird forces occur (assuming a non-splitter crack- which is true most of the time if you dont live in the desert). but, if a cam rotates, that outward force will do the same thing to the cam lobes a downward force will- pull the stem away from the lobes, engaging them and keeping the unit in the rock.
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burritofiend
Jan 15, 2009, 2:34 AM
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camhead wrote: After all, that's why we use cams for this sort of thing rather than a hex.
I thought a cam is used in place of a hex because cams can be placed quicker and a hex is hard, if possible at all, to place in a parallel crack.
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moose_droppings
Jan 15, 2009, 4:07 AM
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Yep, a cam is usually quicker. Its hard to get a hex to stay in a smooth sided parallel. Maybe not as warm and fuzzy as a cam, but generally you can get one to work. Another way is to stack nuts, also not quite as quick.
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billl7
Jan 15, 2009, 4:34 AM
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shockabuku wrote: Sling length(s). Multi-directional first piece.
For other circumstances, the leader needs an awareness of the route and where falls are likely for her and her second ... placing multi-directional pro and slinging short/long where and when needed.
Bill L
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coach_kyle
Jan 15, 2009, 5:42 AM
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Fizix.
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camhead
Jan 15, 2009, 3:01 PM
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burritofiend wrote: camhead wrote: After all, that's why we use cams for this sort of thing rather than a hex. I thought a cam is used in place of a hex because cams can be placed quicker and a hex is hard, if possible at all, to place in a parallel crack.
uhhh... there can be more than one reason t do things. But yes, that is true.
The bottom line is that it is MUCH easier to make a cam mulitdirectional than a hex, stopper, or even tricam. This is why many recomment placing a cam for your first piece.
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burritofiend
Jan 16, 2009, 2:30 AM
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Thanks for helping me better understand SLCD placements.
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tomtom
Jan 16, 2009, 7:05 PM
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camhead wrote: burritofiend wrote: camhead wrote: After all, that's why we use cams for this sort of thing rather than a hex. I thought a cam is used in place of a hex because cams can be placed quicker and a hex is hard, if possible at all, to place in a parallel crack. The bottom line is that it is MUCH easier to make a cam mulitdirectional than a hex, stopper, or even tricam. This is why many recomment placing a cam for your first piece.
Actually, not always true. It depends on the placement. I know a few climbs where dropping in a hex in an inward flared slot is bomber in almost any direction. Trad climbing is about knowing your different tools and using them as appropriate.
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camhead
Jan 16, 2009, 8:23 PM
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tomtom wrote: camhead wrote: burritofiend wrote: camhead wrote: After all, that's why we use cams for this sort of thing rather than a hex. I thought a cam is used in place of a hex because cams can be placed quicker and a hex is hard, if possible at all, to place in a parallel crack. The bottom line is that it is MUCH easier to make a cam mulitdirectional than a hex, stopper, or even tricam. This is why many recomment placing a cam for your first piece. Actually, not always true. It depends on the placement. I know a few climbs where dropping in a hex in an inward flared slot is bomber in almost any direction. Trad climbing is about knowing your different tools and using them as appropriate.
you may notice that I didn't say "you can ALWAYS make a cam multidirectional more than a hex or stopper." I simply said that it is much easier to do so.
Your anomalous anecdotal evidence from "a few climbs" does not change or invalidate anything I said. Cams work better, more often as multidirectional pieces than passive pro. The original poster was talking about parallel-sided splitters, too, which would by definition ALWAYS need a cam to be mulitdirectional, and not a hex.
duh.
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