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ptlong
Feb 13, 2009, 5:23 PM
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His autoblock is too long. If he lifts his leg a little bit it will disengage. There was a fatality a couple of years ago caused by this. You're better off without a poorly constructed backup.
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majid_sabet
Feb 13, 2009, 5:25 PM
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ptlong wrote: His autoblock is too long. If he lifts his leg a little bit it will disengage. There was a fatality a couple of years ago caused by this. You're better off without a poorly constructed backup. [img]http://www.onthesharpend.com/wp-content/gallery/rappelling-backup/IMG_5623.jpg[/img]
where and how ?
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Tipton
Feb 13, 2009, 5:27 PM
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I like how he hides his hatred of New England Ropes so well. I read the link about his NE rope getting trashed after it drug across a sharp overhang for ten minutes while he was swinging around. That could never be his own fault could it? Maybe the UIAA should test ropes by scraping them across a knife blade while weighted for ten minutes.
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chadnsc
Feb 13, 2009, 5:33 PM
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So midget how's the thumb? It appears you can type with it now. 
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angry
Feb 13, 2009, 5:40 PM
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I don't approve piss poor writing.
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ptlong
Feb 13, 2009, 5:57 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: where and how ?
Wyoming. There's a long write up with analysis in the 2006 ANAC. Nobody witnessed the accident but it was inferred that he most likely was hanging from his autoblock while trying to work his way over to a ledge. Lifting his leg to gain the ledge disengaged his autoblock.
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rgold
Feb 13, 2009, 6:32 PM
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Some issues connected to this account:
In reply to: ...if you have ever read Accidents in North American Mountaineering you know that it seems like there are more rappelling accidents than any other type.
According to Table III in the 2008 ANAM, Immediate Cause of Accidents, it says that that through 2007, there were 3812 accidents caused by a "fall or slip on rock" and 338 accidents caused by "rappel failure/error."
In reply to: ...This is crucially important so I’ll repeat it, the autoblock will not work if it jams your device...The current “approved” standard is to use an autoblock around your leg loop and extend your device using another cordolette which completely prevents your device from being jammed by the autoblock. I find having the device extended a bit cumbersome but I need to mention it.
The pictures show an autoblock that will jam the device if the right leg is raised.
Edit: Picture with tolerances shown added below:
This is way too close for comfort in my book. The extension does not have to be nearly as long as the other site referenced to become safe---just a few more inches away from the autoblock knot.
In reply to: Just the other day I was rappelling down a slightly overhanging face and found the rope was tangled up into a big ball of nastiness. I guess I could have done the “wrap the rope around your leg three times” trick but instead I engaged the autoblock, worked on the tangle and then finished the rappel
If the autoblock is going to be used in order to let go of the rappel for simple tasks, it is probably then a good idea to always use an autoblock. If the autoblock is only used in some situations, there is danger of developing a habit of releasing the brake hand, which would be catastrophic if done when there is no autoblock installed.
(This post was edited by rgold on Feb 13, 2009, 9:37 PM)
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drector
Feb 13, 2009, 6:45 PM
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Approved for what? Oh, for belaying. It's important because if you let go of the rope while belaying, your partner might get killed. Yes. It's important to back up your belay because you could get hit on the head and knocked out. Then what?
I've heard that you might even protect yourself from lowering someone off the end of the rope if you use a backup knot with your belay.
Yes, I know it's all about the rappel but why back up a rappel but not a belay? Why does no one ever address that question?! The risk of being knocked out is probably higher if you are belaying and there is no other benefit to a backup knot, beyond resting and taking photos, beyond that one danger. It will not protect you from rapping off the end of the rope so what's the point?
Maybe I should go read those linked posts but this topic pretty much sucks due to the number of rabid evangelists preaching their religion too much to discuss the issue rationally.
Standards? You climbers are such rebels.
Dave
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happiegrrrl
Feb 13, 2009, 6:55 PM
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rgold wrote: If the autoblock is going to be used in order to let go of the rappel for simple tasks, it is probably then a good idea to always use an autoblock. If the autoblock is only used in some situations, there is danger of developing a habit of releasing the brake hand, which would be catastrophic if done when there is no autoblock installed.
That is precisely the reason I always do an autoblock on rappel. Once in a great while I won't use it, on a short single pitch, but then I need to remind myself to stay cognizant I have no backup. It's easier just to do the autoblock.
Besides, I have told myself that this is one of my "sacrifices" made to appease the climbing gods, just as I always use two lockers on a TR powerpoint(it is amazing to me how many people use just one, or two non-lockers, although these are nearly always people doing so on bolted anchors...). I can hear my climbing gods whispering in my ear every time..."But YOU wouldn't cheat us out of a gear sacrifice like that, now WOULD you, Terrie......
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clemsonscooby
Feb 13, 2009, 7:33 PM
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ptlong wrote: His autoblock is too long. If he lifts his leg a little bit it will disengage. There was a fatality a couple of years ago caused by this. You're better off without a poorly constructed backup. [img]http://www.onthesharpend.com/wp-content/gallery/rappelling-backup/IMG_5623.jpg[/img]
I would say that his ATC should be extended further with a 4' sling. Tie a knot in the middle of the sling, clip the ATC between the knot, and then clip the remaining tail back into the belay loop. In that picture won't the autoblock just get stuck in the ATC and that arrest the rappeler.
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kennoyce
Feb 13, 2009, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: In that picture won't the autoblock just get stuck in the ATC and that arrest the rappeler.
No, most likely, the edge of the atc will just push the top of the autoblock which will release it, and the rope will just slide on through. Because of the thickness of the cord used in an autoblock it is nearly impossible to get sucked into the atc.
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theguy
Feb 13, 2009, 7:46 PM
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This thread is so 2004
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scottek67
Feb 13, 2009, 7:53 PM
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in that second link ... that chick was cute but I disagree with her use of a daisy-chain. any one else? or was it approved by angry? (he was probably looking at her tits the whole time!)
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kachoong
Feb 13, 2009, 8:05 PM
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scottek67 wrote: in that second link ... that chick was cute but I disagree with her use of a daisy-chain. any one else? or was it approved by angry? (he was probably looking at her tits the whole time!)
I don't like the way the end of the daisy is just clipped to her gear loop. And why is it necessary to extend the device so much so that it's out of reach? What purpose does that serve?
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k.l.k
Feb 13, 2009, 8:12 PM
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rgold wrote: If the autoblock is going to be used in order to let go of the rappel for simple tasks, it is probably then a good idea to always use an autoblock. If the autoblock is only used in some situations, there is danger of developing a habit of releasing the brake hand, which would be catastrophic if done when there is no autoblock installed.
Yeah, and I can see that accident report coming.
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sungam
Feb 13, 2009, 8:26 PM
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scottek67 wrote: in that second link ... that chick was cute but I disagree with her use of a daisy-chain. any one else? or was it approved by angry? (he was probably looking at her tits the whole time!)
The daisy chain thing I don't like, nor do I like that the only prussik back-up the show is the less safe of the 2 main methods.
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theguy
Feb 13, 2009, 8:29 PM
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scottek67 wrote: I disagree with her use of a daisy-chain...was it approved by angry?
That's as it may be.
Her use of the rope between her legs is pretty good though. I think it's related to Angry's kegel thread.
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everyday.explorer
Feb 13, 2009, 8:39 PM
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You are correct in saying that if the autoblock touches the device it will disengage. What you are incorrect about is my personal autoblock. I took the time an energy to tie - test - shorten - retie- test -shorten until I had a cordolette that will not jam my device no matter how much I squirm.
Thank you for the observation. I will make a note of this in the post.
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sungam
Feb 13, 2009, 8:43 PM
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Hey everydday.
U r rong. By autoblock I assume you mean the prussik backup. Backing up off the legloop will always run the risk of disengaging, no matter how much you fuck with it, wether it be by inversion or whatever. The safest way, though I do it off the legloop, is to extend the device and back up either off the legloop or off the tie in points/belay loop.
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curt
Feb 13, 2009, 9:14 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: rgold wrote: If the autoblock is going to be used in order to let go of the rappel for simple tasks, it is probably then a good idea to always use an autoblock. If the autoblock is only used in some situations, there is danger of developing a habit of releasing the brake hand, which would be catastrophic if done when there is no autoblock installed. That is precisely the reason I always do an autoblock on rappel. Once in a great while I won't use it, on a short single pitch, but then I need to remind myself to stay cognizant I have no backup. It's easier just to do the autoblock.
Or never use one--which happens to be my solution to the same problem.
happiegrrrl wrote: Besides, I have told myself that this is one of my "sacrifices" made to appease the climbing gods, just as I always use two lockers on a TR powerpoint(it is amazing to me how many people use just one, or two non-lockers, although these are nearly always people doing so on bolted anchors...). I can hear my climbing gods whispering in my ear every time..."But YOU wouldn't cheat us out of a gear sacrifice like that, now WOULD you, Terrie......
Using two adamantly opposed non-locking carabiners is also perfectly fine.
Curt
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jeepnphreak
Feb 13, 2009, 9:14 PM
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Call me old fashioned but I still like the prussk or shunt above the rappel divice.
My thing is I think the atc raps like shit, its not very smooth, I think this is b/c I use a 10.5mm rope and not somthing thinner. I perfer an 8 to rap on
(This post was edited by jeepnphreak on Feb 13, 2009, 9:16 PM)
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sungam
Feb 13, 2009, 9:23 PM
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I don't dig the prussik above, since it can get loaded pretty hard, and prussiks acan and do slide. Underneath the device, however, it isn't holding your weight, it's just locking the device, and the device is holding your weight.
Do you use an atc-xp or guide?
I find the atc raps smooth and fine, even on 10.5s.
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ptlong
Feb 13, 2009, 9:32 PM
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everyday.explorer wrote: You are correct in saying that if the autoblock touches the device it will disengage. What you are incorrect about is my personal autoblock. I took the time an energy to tie - test - shorten - retie- test -shorten until I had a cordolette that will not jam my device no matter how much I squirm.
Maybe so, but it's clear from the photo that you're cutting it awfully close (unnecessarily). Are you sure you tested every possible way it could reach the device? What about one less wrap? Or undressing the friction knot?
everyday.explorer wrote: Anything that is dyneema or dynex will not only slip but it will also melt and weaken to the point of failure.
This isn't true.
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chadnsc
Feb 13, 2009, 10:17 PM
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sungam wrote: Hey everydday. U r rong. By autoblock I assume you mean the prussik backup. Backing up off the legloop will always run the risk of disengaging, no matter how much you fuck with it, wether it be by inversion or whatever. The safest way, though I do it off the legloop, is to extend the device and back up either off the legloop or off the tie in points/belay loop.
This is not always true there sungam. I use a prussic loop around 14" in diameter tied to my leg loop. I do not extend my atc off my harness.
The prussic loop is short enough and I am tall / big enough that it's incredibly unlikely that the prussic would lock up in my atc. Hell I would have to contort my body into fetal position and simultaneously lose 35 pounds for the prussic to lock up my atc.
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