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boymeetsrock
Feb 19, 2009, 12:34 AM
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Very sorry to hear about the fallen climber. Hope he heals well and fast.
-Boy
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edge
Feb 19, 2009, 12:40 AM
Post #27 of 127
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Why mark the end of a rope, seriously? Take a second, move it a foot or two, and if the rope stops, it is most likely the end.
Middle marks are very convenient, but only if manufacturers and consumers are on the same page.
For the most part, a 15 foot mark tells the belayer that he has two 1/2 body lengths to find an adequate belay, tie off with whatever is left, and be safe. A good belayer will give a much more advanced warning, and a skilled leader will seldom need one.
I hope your friend heals quickly; I mean no disrespect to him in any way.
(This post was edited by edge on Feb 19, 2009, 12:41 AM)
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avalon420
Feb 19, 2009, 12:51 AM
Post #28 of 127
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kennoyce wrote: Yet another example of why rope manufacturers need to get rid of any mark that is not a middle mark. I hope your friend heals quickly.
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bennydh
Feb 19, 2009, 12:58 AM
Post #29 of 127
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Agreed, watch the effin ends guys come one!
This is so easy people. There aren't excuses for failing to find the middle, or verifying you will get down all the way, or watching below you to be sure a rope won't run through your belay device while rappelling.
I am sorry for those who have been injured or killed and my condolences to their families, but this is totally avoidable and user error.
Climbing is about as safe as we make it. Why aren't we being more safe and taking responsibility for our actions. I can't see how putting it on rope manufacturers changes anything
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notapplicable
Feb 19, 2009, 1:05 AM
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boymeetsrock wrote: notapplicable wrote: acorneau wrote: notapplicable wrote: Can anyone else think of another piece of gear or gear feature that is combining with operator error and causing accidents as frequently as those end marks? I can't. Grigri's.  Hmmm good point. Just about every climbing accident is the result of human error so thats probably not the most helpful filter to use. Perhaps a better way to look at it is from the perspective of utility vs. likelihood of being the primary contributing factor in an accident. To everyone who thinks end marks should be kept in use, please riddle me this. The justification for end marks is that they warn you that you are nearing the end of your rope. Well in every case where a person rapped off the end of their rope, they cruised right on past the "warning" mark and decked. So not only did the end mark lead them to rap on an uneven rope but it failed to fulfill its only conceivable purpose by preventing them from rapping of the end of that uneven rope. Their intended to prevent accidents but their causing them instead. Thats pretty damning if you ask me. The problem is that they didn't "cruse right past the warning mark" because that mark was at the anchor. Your going to go off the short end of the rope long before you pass any other marking, if you've put the end mark at the anchor.
Oh, damn good point! I don't know how I over looked that but it cuts the legs right out from under my argument don't it.
I'm not gonna go back and edit but I officially retract the, clearly very flawed, query.
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anykineclimb
Feb 19, 2009, 1:25 AM
Post #32 of 127
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I mistook the end mark on a Mammut rope once. All it took though is flaking the rop to throw and realized it was the end marker.
Just a little attention to detail.
its a shame your friend was in such a rush.
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sungam
Feb 19, 2009, 1:35 AM
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Newest word is he thinks he's out for the season
I was super surprised when I heard he fell. He's generally a methodical climber and usually pays attention to detail.
It looks like he may have some help covering his medical bills (he's kinda a dirtbag climber) and might actually go get an x-ray.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, but that's how it goes, right?
Had I finished work on time I would have been with him and we probably wouldn't have rapped in... meh.
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kennoyce
Feb 19, 2009, 3:35 PM
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In reply to: Yet another example of why rope USERS should watch their ends. Stupidity fault, not manufacturer. I personally love my 10 meter marks
You my friend are in the minority on this one I think. I am not saying that this is the manufacturers fault, obviously it is user error, but when there have been multiple deaths dealing with the misinterpretation of these marks, they should be taken off the market. I know that some people like the marks, but they are too easy to be mistaken especially if you are using a rope that is not your own. These marks are especially dangerous anytime that you are in a hurry, tired, trying to beat the weather, or any other extraneous circumstance.
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durangoclimber
Feb 19, 2009, 3:39 PM
Post #35 of 127
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All the best to your friend. Speedy recovery.
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robdotcalm
Feb 19, 2009, 4:09 PM
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From an old post
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ddle%20mark;#1030642
«"Knowing the location of the middle of the rope is important in rappelling. An accident in Washington state last year [2004] drove this home. Two experienced climbers were rappelling from a site they had rappelled from previously. Their rope was plenty long enough. They visually checked that both ends were on the ground. [after resting a few minutes] the first guy started rappelling and soon one end of the rope went through his belay device. He fell and died. Conclusions: a high wind had whipped their rope after they lowered it and moved one end off the ground; if they had the middle marked this would not have happened. After reading about this, I became more aware than ever about carefully marking the middle of the rope.
Two weeks ago in Eldorado Canyon (CO) my partner and I reached a tree, equipped with slings and rappel ring, to rappel down at about 3:30 PM. Another party was there setting up their rappel. I don’t know what brand rope they had. It was a light gray, almost an off white. The middle was marked by 2, maybe 4 inch wide black bands (manufactured into the rope) a couple of inches apart. As the four of us watched, they set up their rappel with the rope going through the anchor in the space between the markings. As the first guy was getting ready to rappel, my partner shouted out that the middle mark was about 30’ down the cliff. We looked and saw it; then looked back at the anchor point also saw it there.
What had happened? The sun coming through the trees had created two black shadows about 4 inches in length and a few inches apart. They looked exactly like the manufactured supplied middle markings. Even after we were aware that the shadows had created the illusion, it still looked real.
Moral of the story: if it can go wrong, it will go wrong. Taping the middle of the rope or a bi-colored rope would avoid this possible source of error. I’ve been climbing for over 30 years and this is the first time I’ve seen anything like this or heard about it. Is something so rare worth worrying about?"»
These incidents gave me the excuse I needed to finally spend the extra bucks and buy a bi-patterened rope. And I suppose a bit of tape around the middle would provide extra awareness in low light conditions of the location of the middle of the rope.
The incidents provided in this and other threads clearly indicates that ropes should no longer be manufactured with end marks (are there still any new ropes out there with end marks?)
r.c
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j_ung
Feb 19, 2009, 4:17 PM
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I don't think you can realistically call this anything but the climber's fault.
That said, occasionally there are certain aspects of climbing gear that, while well intentioned, actually play to inherent weaknesses in the human mind and in some cases can contribute to accidents. We see these things pop up when the same failure mode happens again and again, take for example people forgetting to clip into autobelays in gyms. This appears to be one of those.
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jaablink
Feb 19, 2009, 4:42 PM
Post #38 of 127
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I don’t think it is a bad idea. You always have the choice weather to buy marked or unmarked lines and you should check anything you do not mark yourself for accuracy. The manufacturers can always :Color code them, red for the ends, black or green for the center (whatever). Or my personal preference, buy rope that is not marked and do as you please with it. I just mark the center.
My buddy some lines that are end marked, when the rope reaches those marks in the ATC handling becomes very stiff , and is stop and go until you pass the markings. This was designed as a warning signal to alert you to the end of the rope by vision and the change in handling.
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bandycoot
Feb 19, 2009, 4:56 PM
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notapplicable wrote: I don't care whether it's ultimately human error or if a minority of climbers find those markings to be in some way marginally useful. End marks are fucking up more climbers than any other gear feature. Can anyone else think of another piece of gear or gear feature that is combining with operator error and causing accidents as frequently as those end marks? I can't. Standardization damn it!!!!
grigri
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acorneau
Feb 19, 2009, 5:16 PM
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Ummm... read post #15.
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erolls
Feb 19, 2009, 5:37 PM
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I'm with j_ungs first post. My ropes (bluewater) have no marks at all. I use my arm span (both arms ) to find the middle, 17.5 for me. You can do this in the dark when you forget your headlamp. Then all you have to do is watch the ends. After all, what else do really need to be looking at.
-E
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krusher4
Feb 19, 2009, 6:28 PM
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how about climbers start tying knots in the end of their ropes when rappeling?
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notapplicable
Feb 19, 2009, 6:29 PM
Post #44 of 127
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bandycoot wrote: notapplicable wrote: I don't care whether it's ultimately human error or if a minority of climbers find those markings to be in some way marginally useful. End marks are fucking up more climbers than any other gear feature. Can anyone else think of another piece of gear or gear feature that is combining with operator error and causing accidents as frequently as those end marks? I can't. Standardization damn it!!!! grigri
Agreed but the grigri is of pretty significant utility to many climbers. Some people would argue that the end marks have saved a number of people from rapping off their ropes but I don't see how that can be demonstrated. They are usually far enough from the ends that your not in any danger when you see them so I don't see how anyone can definitively say "I would have gone right off the end if it weren't for the end marks".
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bandycoot
Feb 19, 2009, 8:05 PM
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krusher4 wrote: how about climbers start tying knots in the end of their ropes when rappelling?
Because many of us choose to climb in situations where that is not an option. This can range from high wind, to featured rock prone to snags, to pure speed. Instead of choosing to tie knots, I've learned over the years from endless threads such as this, one that trumps the hell out of knots is awareness. As I clip into a rope, I'm always aware. I stay aware of the rope ends, and if they aren't equal or reaching my intended destination I have the experience, ability, and gear with me to deal with that situation. Since I feel some of the people I climb with don't have this awareness, I often offer to rappel first, or comment, "watch the rope ends!" Awareness is something that is very difficult to teach. Learn, if you're reading this thread, there is no reason for any of you to EVER rap off your rope ends.
Josh
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iknowfear
Feb 19, 2009, 9:11 PM
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All the accidents shifted my initial estimation of endmarks (similar to j_ung) from seeing the benefits as to seeing it as Yet Another Thing you can F up with.
However, I dont think endmarks should be banned; they make sense on half ropes which are generally used in a more adventurous terrain:
Longer Rappels,
Longer Pitches (readying for Simul Climbing)
Communication with leader
The big negative point mistaking the end mark for a middle mark is imho not an issue on half ropes. I Marked my Halfropes with a rope
marker (beal or sth).
So what do you think of this
-No end marks on single ropes.
-End marks on halfropes.
All the Best and a quick recovery!
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originalpmac
Feb 19, 2009, 11:56 PM
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Hey all. I am the guy that decked. My name is Pierce. Thanks to all of you for wishing well on the recovery. Get this... I am going to work in the morning and probably climbing sometime next week. I only sprained my ankle, and that wasn't even a bad sprain. So thanks for all the well wishes. It is much appreciated.
To those of you blaming the end marks on the rope; don't. It is not the factory's fault that I didn't check my ends, it was mine. I was rapping into the New Funtier to get in some solo laps after work, was in a haste, and rapped off the short end. I'll tell you, that rope whizzing through made one hell of a snapping sounds, and sudden'y I was rocketing down. I tried catching myself to no avail, my crampons caught a ledge about ten feet off the deck, momentum flipped me over backwards, fast. Thought I was about to break my neck or back. Totally thought I was dead, done for. Smacked onto the ground, scared the living shit out of some poor sap. I layed still tomake sure there was no head, neck, back injuries. It was only when found out people were talking to 911, that I stood up and waved them off. I climbed out some easy gully on toprope, then hobbled back to the park entrance where a friend of mine was coming to work turning on the taps. He hooked up a ride home to town, and that was the day. Close call, for sure, the closest I have been.
To those self described professionals , don't blame the factory markings. I still think they are great, usefull and a good idea. just don't be a dumbass, check your shit, and don't get yourself killed. Thanks again to those of you wishing me well, I really appreciate it.
Pierce
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maldaly
Feb 20, 2009, 1:05 AM
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Hey Pierce,
Glad to hear you're alright. Must have been a hell of a scare. Good job getting yourself out of there.
All that said, I think Pierce's comments are right on.
You have to pay attention all the time.
You have to know your gear.
You have to practice with your gear.
You have to be responsible.
End marks on a rope are incredibly usefull for someone who knw they are there and is paying attention.
End marks on a rope can be deadly for someone who isn't paying attention.
People rap off the ends of their ropes all the tie in Ouray. They just can't believe that a doubled 70 meter rope won't reach the bottom. I was there last weekend and was, once again, appalled how people treat the area as if they were at a sport climbing area or a gym. They climb right under you. They set up a rope 5 feet away from one that is already there and lower in. They climb right over you. They think that by simply of yelling "ICE!!!" there is a deflector shield over anyone within range of the ice bombs they knock off.
I was TRing a route in the central gorge last Sunday. There was a party next to us which had a rope on the panel around the corner to the left. Our routes were separate from each other and any ice knocked off of one wouldn't ricochet over to the other. Nice safe setup until the climber on the adjacent route decided to traverse below me to the right and climb up right underneath me. I looked down just as I was heading up the final chandeliered pillar and, there he was, 40' down and right in my line of fire. I yelled take and lowered off. As I went by him I said sternly but nicely, "Dude. You shouldn't be climbing right underneath another climber." "Sorry", he said. "No Apologies I replied, You'd be the dead one". As I lowered he continued to climb up and I had to yell at him to stop and wait so he wouldn't knock anything off on me. I got to the bottom and scrampled off to the side. His very next swing knocked off a 50 lb bomb that would have put me in the hospital.
He didn't have a clue. He was a beginner. It was his buddies who had had him climb there. At the bottom they told be I shouldn't be so harsh. "Go easy on him. He's a beginner" they said.
Whatever... Sorry for the rant. I just HATE how cavalier people are in the park.
Be careful out there.
Mal
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pylonhead
Feb 20, 2009, 1:21 AM
Post #49 of 127
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originalpmac wrote: To those self described professionals, don't blame the factory markings. I still think they are great, useful and a good idea. just don't be a dumbass, check your shit, and don't get yourself killed. Thanks again to those of you wishing me well, I really appreciate it.
In the climbing community we value personal responsibility. So I think most of the posters you are responding to would agree with you that accidents of this sort are caused by preventable mistakes on the part of the climber.
That being said, we should acknowledge that you would not have decked if it weren't for the end marks. If you were a exceptional case then we could write this off as a fluke. But we've seen a number of accidents and near misses from people making exactly the same mistake you did.
So even if we don't blame the end marks for causing the accidents, we can look at your story and the other stories and ask the question, "Do end marked ropes increase the chance that climbers using them will make a potentially fatal mistake?"
If so, maybe they just aren't the best choice for climbing.
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donald949
Feb 20, 2009, 1:29 AM
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Pierce, glad to hear you're better, not too badly hurt. That flip sounds scary as hell, could have been very bad.
Thanks again for the post and the reminder this is a serious business we are in, and care should always be taken. Hopefully we will all take your write up to heart.
Now Mals' story is another piece of work. I don't know what to say, except live and learn.
Be safe people.
Don
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