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timpanogos
Nov 20, 2002, 5:53 AM
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I’ve been searching the aid forum and I’m just not finding the low down on how exactly to do this. I must have brain freeze because I’m just not getting it. Using the Frog system for ascending and cleaning aid (with the GriGri backup) makes perfect sense – as well as the cool Continuous Solo Tag System. Will somebody please give me a blow by blow from the following start:
I’m at the anchor at the beginning of a pitch and I setup the solo tag rack system With the lead rope all flaked into the bag, please explain to me what is happening at the climbers side of things with this lead rope. How is it attached to the frog system? How am I belaying myself off of this rope? I know that PTPP has mentioned giving your GriGri a squeeze as you step up in your aiders to the newly placed piece, and you then clip your lead rope into the peace that you just stepped off of and retie your backup knot if needed.
However, you have one end of the rope tied to your harness and the other end is tied to your tag Retrieval system. So – Sorry dumb question follows – what in the heck am I tied into. And when I get to the top of my pitch do I need a second rope to rap and clean, or am I only climbing a half a rope, and raping on my own TR as-it-were?
I recently read the thread on the guy who pitched at Yosemite zippered his gear, factor 2 it, broke his locker on his grigri and bent up the grigri. There was talk in this thread about “back-cleaning” and how he had gone a bit far with this.
What am I missing here?
Thanks
Chad
Edit spelling fix
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2002-11-19 21:57 ]
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2002-11-21 12:02 ]
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passthepitonspete
Nov 20, 2002, 6:32 AM
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What are you missing? Holy frig. Most everything fundamental.
[Man, I've really got to get that Continuous Loop post written...]
Sheesh.
Sung: "Where do I begin....."
Lawsy lawsy lawsy...
[Dr. Piton shakes head and purses lips]
OK, first of all, the Frog system is not a method of climbing or belaying, it is rather a method of ascending a fixed rope via "jugging."
Next, when you are solo aid climbing, the end of the rope is not tied to your harness. Never. Not ever. This is one of the things that makes soloing trickier and scarier than climbing with a partner.
You are not tied to your lead rope! You are attached to it via your Grigri belay device, and backed up with a backup knot.
The end of the lead rope is attached to your lower anchor.
This is the beginning of the Continuous Loop - your lower belay station.
If you have a pig, then the pig becomes your "belayer" by providing weight pulling downwards in case you fall. If you do not have a pig, you will have to construct and anchor to take both a downward and an upward pull. This is not as easy as it might seem.
The end of the lead rope begins at your lower anchor. The lead rope does not move. It is stationary.
The lead rope goes up the pitch through your pro. YOU are on your top piece of pro. As you aid up, you run the rope through your pro. As you place a piece and move up, you have to squeeze the Grigri to provide slack in your system to allow you to move up.
The rope continues from the free end of your Grigri down into a ten-foot or so loop, then up to an overhand knot tied in your designated wide gate autolocker backup crab, which hangs from a short sewn sling on your doughnut.
Next, the rope runs back down to a slippery overhand knot through a good piece of gear beneath you, as explained in the Solo Tag Rack post. The bag of rope is attached to the Solo Tag Rack. The whole kit and kaboodle sits on a fifi hook.
When you need more gear, you put the lead rope through the compound pulley that you have riding with you, and you pull all the rope out of the rope bag, and then you pull up the whole tag rack. You hang it on its hook on a good piece, tie a slippery overhand on another, disconnect your compound pulley, and take what you need.
This takes a lot of practice! LOTS. It is NOT easy, but beats the heck out of wearing it all on your rack.
When you begin, your tag rack will be sitting on a hook on the lower anchor. Perhaps two or three times per pitch you will pull it up to you.
Traditional solo technique would have you wear your second rope [yes, you do need two!] on your ass, and this is your haul line. You would have to climb with its weight hanging from your harness.
Instead, you attach the top of the haul line to the Solo Tag Rack with a locker, as it's a critical link. Each time you pull up the tag rack, up comes the top of the haul line.
When you get to the upper station, you anchor the lead line for jugging and cleaning, and you rappel on the haul line. You must have a separate haul line to rappel. It is too difficult to rappel an overhanging and traversing pitch.
So back to you, the Continuous Loop runs with the lead rope from your backup knot on your harness down to the slippery overhand knot to the rope bag to the tag rack. Note how your lead rope actually becomes your "tag rope" between you and your tag rack.
The top of the haul line attaches to the bottom of the tag rack. The Continuous Loop goes down the haul line, to the haul line bag which is attached to the lower anchor, and then the lower end of the haul line is itself attached to the lower anchor, thus completing the Continuous Loop.
It is important to remember to tie the end of the haul line to the lower anchor - if the pitch traverses or overhangs a lot, you will end up rappelling down the haul line to hang in space, then will have to "jug in" on the haul line to reach your lower anchor.
Remember, using a Solo Tag Rack means that you may have thirty to fifty pounds of gear hanging on a fifi hook in the middle of your pitch [but at least backed up with a slippery overhand knot - a Dr. Piton invention, incidentally]
The potential to come to grief and end up dead is HUGE!
If you take a big whipper and knock your tag rack off its fifi, you and all that gear on your solo tag rack will go hurtling earthward in a frightening clatter of jingling steel and tearing flesh!
This is a technique that, at least in the big wall arena, is for Experts Only.
However, that being said, you have to start somewhere, right? And that "somewhere" is on a nice safe A1 pitch until you get your systems dialled.
Finding yourself out of rope eight hook moves into a ten-move hook traverse is not the time to figure out how and when to tag!
Figure it out where it's safe, as dying is emphatically not cool.
Now, you may think that Chad doesn't "get" the Continuous Loop.
You may also think he has little or no idea what he's talking about.
You'd be right on both accounts.
However, Chad has something more important than immediate understanding - Chad has the desire, and Chad has the passion.
It drips through his PM's to me and permeates his profile.
He is hooked, and it is his desire to solo a big wall one day.
I believe he will.
Besides, he's an Old Bull, and he will figure this stuff out.
I've seen enough people to discern the winners from the wankers, and I don't waste my time replying to wankers.
To answer Eddie's questions below:
1. Yes. For convenience.
2. Correct. With a 200' rope on a 200' pitch, you are obliged to tag at or before the 100' point. If you have 200' pitches and only a 200' rope, you will need about a thirty foot hunk of extra rope in the bag which is your solo tag extension - so you won't have to do progressively shorter tags as you approach your upper belay.
[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2002-11-19 22:39 ]
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eclarke98
Nov 20, 2002, 6:33 AM
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Ok, I actually get the whole Continuous Loop thing now, I've been waiting a while for this post. But I have two pretty simple questions.
1. Why do you use a short sling attached to your belay loop to attach your locking biner for the backup knot? Is this just so it doesn't get in the way?
2. After you make it halfway up a pitch and lets say you haven't pulled up the tag rack to use it yet, would you have to at that point, pull it up and tie it off so you weren't dragging the thing up the wall?
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timpanogos
Nov 20, 2002, 7:18 AM
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I can not get this song out of my head
"Wooo Who gotta get me some, gotta get me some - Wooo Who gotta get me some!"
Zion, Prodigal Son V 5.8 C1 next season!
Wow, thanks for the endorsement of such a Gumby Pete (I think, is that a good thing????)
The circled speck on the wall (climbers about 1/2 way up)is going to be me!
http://www.kurth.org/...mbing/zion/zwall.jpg
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2002-11-19 23:22 ]
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timpanogos
Nov 20, 2002, 2:13 PM
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Holy Crap bat man no figure 8 harness tie in on lead line! No wonder I keep scratching my head. Straps doubled back, nice figure 8, ready to climb, Fundamental (as Pete would put it). Im a bit slow, but the big picture now a little clearer.
Is the following correct?
1. I hit top of pitch, build a bomber, factor 2 anchor (say with a cord-a-let).
2. I pull up my tag rack and hook it to the power-point (PP) of my anchor.
3. I tie my lead line to the PP.
4. I tie my haul line into the PP.
5. I rap down my haul line, possibly well below my lower PP, jugging back up the end tied to the lower PP as needed.
6. I tie my haul line back to my pig and transfer the pig to the haul line.
7. I setup my frog ascend on the lead line and clean the pitch.
8. I setup a hauling ratchet above my PP.
9. Haul the pig and tie it to the PP with the appropriate load release knots and backup.
10. Untie haul line from the pig and retie it to the PP.
11. Attach haul line bag to the PP and flake haul line into it starting at the PP end.
12. Tie the haul line to the tag rack.
13. Tie your lead rope to the load-bearing locker on your pig.
14. re-enforce your anchor for anti-zipper and upward pull and a pig (belay) tie-down anchor if pig to you weight ratio is bad.
15. Reset your tag rack system.
16. Climb on.
Questions:
1. If your tag rack got hung up, you would have to lower down on your grigri, free the rack and ascend back up your lead line to your top piece, right?
2. Does my haul line have to be substantially longer than my lead line incase I have to rap well below the lower anchor to get to it? Say for a full 60-meter traversing pitch.
3. if my pig gets hopelessly caught while hauling, I would setup and rap down my lead line with a sling tied to the haul line so I could get to the pig, right?
4. I gathered that back cleaning dealt somewhat with speeding up a solo ascent, along with the potential need of re-gathering key pieces of pro. Please tell me more about back cleaning.
Thanks
Chad
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valygrl
Nov 20, 2002, 4:37 PM
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I'm not getting the part about the slippery overhand knot.
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wigglestick
Nov 20, 2002, 5:11 PM
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I am not sure that I understand the slippery overhand knot as well. Tell me if this is right:
-You have a thin cord running through the little hole on your fifi. You attach the end of the lead line to this via a locking biner.
-Then you take a short loop of rope above the knot and tie a "slippery overhand knot" in it and attach that to the same piece of gear that the fifi is hanging from?
-You stuff the rest of the rope in the rope bag.
-Then when you want to bring up the tag rack you, from above, pull all the rope out of the ropebag. Give the rope a little tug, so that the "slippery overhand knot" unties kind of like untying your shoelace and then you lift the fifi off of the piece, and then haul the tag rack up to your high point. Is this right?
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wigglestick
Nov 20, 2002, 5:17 PM
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Timpanogos-
Quote:
3. I tie my lead line to the PP.
4. I tie my haul line into the PP.
5. I rap down my haul line, possibly well below my lower PP, jugging back up the end tied to the lower PP as needed.
6. I tie my haul line back to my pig and transfer the pig to the haul line.
7. I setup my frog ascend on the lead line and clean the pitch.
8. I setup a hauling ratchet above my PP.
I just noticed a huge flaw in your system.
You should fix the lead line so that you can jug it while cleaning. But your don't tie the haul line off. You place the haul line through your compound pulley. Then you rap the haulline. Yes, your weight is 100% on the compound pulley but that is the business.
If you did things your way how would you get the haulline setup in your hauling apparatus if the pig was dangling in space?
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timpanogos
Nov 20, 2002, 11:45 PM
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“You should fix the lead line so that you can jug it while cleaning”
That is what step 3 does – tie lead line to PP.
“how would you get the haulline setup in your hauling apparatus if the pig was dangling in space?”
One of Pete’s threads on hauling systems – he mentions about how much safer it is to rap on the knot, and that you can use this order. I assume this is because to setup a 2:1 or 3:1 ratchet system, it will require me to setup some pro above the anchor for the various Z-pulley aspects of the ratchet system. I would then presik off of the Z-pulley pro to unload enough slack to load the pulley.
Or better yet, go ahead and setup the ratchet system, loading the pulley with enough rope left hanging to allow you to pull (anywhere from 2 hands worth, to body weight assisted, need to tie in length, depending on pig size). Anyway, now on the load side of the pulley tie a figure 8 in a bite at the PP level. Now connect the figure 8 to the PP and rap on down. When you get back, girth hitch a presik loop to a sling, tie the presik to the loaded side of the figure 8, get on your ratchet and unload the figure 8 from the PP. Take the sling side of your presik combo and tie a mariner knot in a biner attached to the ratchet system (like the pro holding the pulley). Now lower the load until the mariner takes the weight. Untie the figure 8 and pull all the slack thought the pulley and take the weight with the ratchet or release the mariner to load the ratchet as needed.
Now I have not thought this all the way through, nor have I ever actually set any of this up and tried it – just trying to get a starting point for in the gym and local crag practice/experimentation. In fact I only halve heartedly read the various hauling system posts, cause I don’t even know how to setup my aiders yet.
I’m wondering if that haul line wants to be a fair bit longer than your lead line? Not only for the above type of stuff, but the rap/re-ascent on way overhung or traversing pitches?
All beta much appreciated –
Pete must have the better way.
Chad
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krustyklimber
Nov 21, 2002, 12:13 AM
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It is all much easier to do than it is to write or talk about...
get out your gear and TRY IT!!!
Jeff
P.S. Hi Pete!
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passthepitonspete
Nov 21, 2002, 8:50 PM
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Everyone:
Open two windows side by side so you can line these things up to understand.
Pay attention. This is complex. Failure to do it right can cost you more than your pride.
[You should leave your pride on the ground when soloing big walls. Prepare to be humbled.]
Chad:
2. Clip in the tag rack for now.
3. and 4. Use dedicated transient lockers on your PP for attachment.
5. Make sure you pull all the haul line out of the haul line bag first! Especially if you are pulling yourself in horizontally, and especially in the dark! If you want to know why, please click here to read a horrifying episode where I buggered this up! Highly recommended to aspirant wall soloists who wish to live to tell the tale.
6. Yes, tie in the haul line as short as possible with an alpine butterfly. If you are soloing, you should be using a Far End Hauler which has an adjustable suspension point with the inverted ascender. Make sure the haul line is tight, though - any excess slack in the haul line you will later have to haul!
7. You ascend with a jug and Grigri, not Frog. You need your aiders if it's traversing. I need to complete the Index so everyone can find this stuff. You can click here to read the Better Way to clean an aid pitch. You should know these steps in your sleep.
12. Dedicated locker.
13. Dedicated transient locker.
Questions:
1. It sucks. Yes, unless the pitch traverses! Then you will have to down aid traverse! DFU!
2. No. Haul line can be a bit shorter. It travels straight, lead line zigs and zags through pro. Recommended 65m lead, 60m haul, 10m solo tag extension in end of lead rope bag
3. You're totally screwed unless you have set up a Far End Hauler ahead of time
4. Don't back clean key pieces that will keep you alive when you fall! Chris Van Leuven backcleaned some Aliens on a speed solo attempt of The Prow, fell on some old pitons [no] and broke the eye, fell a long way, put a nasty cut on his face. Live and learn.
Anna:
The slippery overhand knot is tied IN THE LEAD ROPE directly above the tag rack every time you tag. This is so if you fall and knock the tag rack off its fifi, it doesn't take the big plunge with you!
This is why tagging is dangerous! Learn properly on A1. Find yourself a Wall Doctor.
Hottie.
Matt:
- "thin" cord on your fifi is 5mm. Correct. Actually, it's not the "end" of the lead line - it is just ahead of the end. You use an alpine butterfly and locker. You can tie it shorter, but this may oblige you to tag when you don't want to! I would rather pull out extra lead rope and have to restack it after tagging, than to be forced to tag too soon because I shortened up on the knot.
- I tie the slippery overhand knot in the lead rope in a different piece of pro than what the fifi is suspended from. The next piece up. On hard aid, I vertically-equalize pieces - three or more! Then I equalize everything beneath and hang the fifi from that. Then I put a screamer higher up to hopefully prevent me from ripping the whole thing off if I fall on it. Then I pray. Prayer never hurts on hard aid. You should also make sure that your will is both valid and current.
- Yes, on top of your solo tag extension rope.
- Perfectly explained. [Pay attention, everyone!] Use your compound pulley to pull it up, cuz it'll be heavy!
Before you place your haul line through your compound pulley and trust your life to it, make sure it is rated to do so! Wall Haulers are not the best for this!
It is for this reason I use the Kong Block Roll.
Putting your haul line through your compound pulley and rapping on it is a shortcut to the Better Way.
The Better Way is as Chad describes - rap from a knotted haul line, and then use your 2:1 Hauling Ratchet to lift the load after you arrive at the top to haul it.
Chad's next post:
Sheesh. I'm not even going to try to read all that BWT.
He was doing better before. Too much clutter.
1. Arrive at top station
2. Attach Hauling Ratchet zed-cord and inverted ascender to haul line
3. Jug on the zed-cord. It is for this reason you have a zed-cord at least 3m long that is at least 6mm if not 7mm in diameter, so you can jug it
4. This puts slack in the haul line so you can put it through the holding ratchet which is your compound pulley
5. The Hauling Ratchet hangs ONLY from the PP. You do not need anything above it.
Mike:
Send a scan of your hook.
Please put it in a separate post, not here.
Sheesh.
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timpanogos
Jan 1, 2003, 12:02 PM
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Pete,
You mentioned in your above answer that a 30' tag extension rope was in order.
What is your suggestion for this rope - is a 30' 5mm cord ok here?
Chad
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climbhigher
Jan 2, 2003, 6:47 PM
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Holy $#!&!!! If you cant figure out rope soloing on you own you should not being doing it!!!! The simplist way to rope solo is with two clove hitchs and two locking biners. When i say simplist, i mean using the less gear possible. And the least complicated gear. I am a minimalist what can i say!!! But i do use a silent partner when free climbing solo. But it is good BETA LOL!!! When i start climbing A4 or A5 which probably will neverhappen i will start putting my .1 cents worth in.
[ This Message was edited by: climbhigher on 2003-01-03 00:36 ]
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passthepitonspete
Jan 2, 2003, 8:41 PM
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No, 5mm is not OK!
It needs to be a leadable piece of rope that you can use to extend your lead rope and link pitches.
Read the PM I sent you, and please explain the error of your ways beneath. I cannot be certain of staying on line long enough to do it.
Duh.
[Dr. Piton throws hands up in frustration!]
P.S. I believe that Chad will get it. I wouldn't keep helping if I thought he didn't.
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mojorisin
Jan 3, 2003, 2:52 AM
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For what its worth,,,as Pete said you should get your *&#! together on a nice a-1 pitch and figure out the systems. And you can also find a one pitch climb and set yourself up a bomber top rope and keep clove hitching up as well as using the gri gri on your lead rope. It may seem foolish but if you screw up you wont bottom out. Just my humble opinion.
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timpanogos
Jan 3, 2003, 8:04 AM
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Ok, here is a number example:
In this example, you have this beautiful 200 crack you are looking up at. You will be able to place solid tag pro at any position on this crack. The topo shows a hanging belay at the 100 mark as well as at the 200 mark - so you decide to run your tags out to the maximum distance each time and skip the middle belay.
0 initial tag rack position
115 second tag ( of 200 lead + of 30 ext.)
172.5 third tag ((200 115) / 2 + of 30 ext.)
201.25 forth tag ((200 172.5) / 2 + of 30 ext.)
Crap, you wondered too much or the topo was a bit off
215.63 damn, getting real nervous here
222.82 you hook your tag rack to your body here and pray like no ones business.
230 - If the anchor is now in reach, praise the Lord, else bummer!
If I understand Petes brief message to me, the above reflects the theory of one reason he suggests a 9mm dynamic, leadable rope (with 200 out, plenty of dynamics for a safe 9mm fall) Another concern is a tough 30 of haul on a skinny code at each tag.
I was thinking a skinny static line because you would never lead on the extension, but would be able to get the full 200 lead.
Pete, Im still not Getting this however. Ease of hauling on a thicker rope makes good sense, but isnt your 60 meter haul line going to be stopping you way short of that 230 mark anyway (as far as needing leadable dynamic rope)?
Thanks
Chad
P.S.
Ed, I did setup a TR last time out.
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2003-01-03 00:06 ]
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timpanogos
Jan 4, 2003, 6:53 AM
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Ok Pete, Im going down hill here. Im sitting here, after making up my solo tag rack exactly as shown. Looking closely at how Im going to attach this to my lead line Im back to more questions about this darn solo tag extension. In reviewing this thread, we are going to have 3 knots in the end of our lead line:
1. slippery overhand
2. alpine butterfly (fifi locker)
3. figure 8 (to tag extension)
Just to use some even numbers, Lets say the last two knots eat up 4 of your lead line, leaving you 196 of lead rope before the fifi biner. The above reference drawing verifies all but the slippery overhand. So:
At 196 / 2 = 98 slippery knot loss (you tug the overhand loose)
At 98 you start pulling the fifi off its initial pro.
As per the drawing, the end of the tag extension line is tied to the rope bucket and the rope bucket is attached to your tag rack via the Mexican locker.
At 99 you are lifting tag rack. Lead rope bucket and 30 of useless tag extension.
Shouldnt this be setup as follows?
1. End of tag extension tied to fifi locker.
2. 1 piece of pro above fifi tie slippery overhand in tag extension.
3. figure 8 lead rope into to the other end of the tag extension.
This would allow you to get to the 115 mark show in the previous post, before unloading the fifi.
Whats up?? Did I really miss the boat here?
Chad
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twrock
Jan 4, 2003, 1:16 PM
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Pete so patiently attempted to explain the concept of the "slippery overhand knot" by saying: Quote:The slippery overhand knot is tied IN THE LEAD ROPE directly above the tag rack every time you tag. This is so if you fall and knock the tag rack off its fifi, it doesn't take the big plunge with you!
- I tie the slippery overhand knot in the lead rope in a different piece of pro than what the fifi is suspended from. The next piece up. On hard aid, I vertically-equalize pieces - three or more! Then I equalize everything beneath and hang the fifi from that. Then I put a screamer higher up to hopefully prevent me from ripping the whole thing off if I fall on it.
Why do I still not get this?!!! How is it that this knot keeps the tag rack from falling but still allows you to pull it up? I just can't seem to "picture" this one. Even if it as wigglestick said Quote:Then you take a short loop of rope above the knot and tie a "slippery overhand knot" in it and attach that to the ... [next] piece of gear...., I don't see how any kind of knot will hold the rack in the event of you falling on it, but release from the piece you tie it to when you want to pull it up. What is my problem tonight? Obviously it does work and some people "get it." I just don't get it!!!!! Pete, I looked at your drawing of the solo tag rack system and I didn't see it there either. Is there anywhere that this setup appears in a picture for those of us who are "imagination impaired"?
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timpanogos
Jan 4, 2003, 3:39 PM
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Twrock,
To start with, try doing a slippery overhand knot at the very end of a rope to get a feel for it. Start tying a regular overhand knot about 2 from the end. Do this by:
1. pinch the rope between thumb and index fingers of both hands, with about 1 of rope between your hands.
2. take your right hand, and twist the rope clockwise into a loop your thumbs are now together with the right hand side of the rope crossed under the left hand side of the rope.
3. Now, INSTEAD OF grabbing the very end of the rope, and threading it around and through the loop
4. pinch both crossed ropes with your right hand and clip a binner to the loop.
5. Slide your left hand 3 to the left of the cross and tuck the rope at this left hand point, around back and through the loop. You now have a loop sticking through the loop.
6. grap this last loop with your left hand, and grab the free end of the rope with your right hand and pull the knot tight on the binner.
7. grab the biner with your left hand and pull like crazy on the loose end of the rope with your right hand.
8. now grab the biner with your right hand and give the non-free end of the rope a tug with the left hand.
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elcapbuzz
Jan 4, 2003, 5:44 PM
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In my opinion.... I think the Doc over-complicates EVERYTHING. I'm not trying to discredit Pete, at all. He is a GREAT wall climber.
There is a lot of ways to solo walls. Some are the "better way".... but some are just a "different way".
For example: I've heard of the slippery overhand knot and know how to use it.... but NEVER had to use it on a wall.
I "TRY" to read Pete's posts.... but get confused, myself. I can't imagine what the novice wall climber is going through.
Cheers, Ammon
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twrock
Jan 4, 2003, 9:22 PM
Post #21 of 37
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Registered: Aug 8, 2002
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Chad, thanks for the "instructions." I'll try to work it out when I'm really awake. This is just one of those times when a picture would definitely be worth a thousand words.
And Ammon, I'm with you on this one. But not because I have extensive experience using something else. I don't know if I'll ever use this "system" either. But I was too curious about the "slippery overhand knot" and I wanted to figure it out.
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timpanogos
Jan 5, 2003, 3:29 AM
Post #22 of 37
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Registered: May 17, 2002
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Hey everyone, how ironical - Im not kidding, I just posted How many ropes do you carry while rope soloing a wall??? about this very topic before reading the last two responses. Yes this topic is not very clear but Im sure glad I spent the time to try and work out the details of the slippery. I was very tempted to skip the complex, overkill slippery knot stuff myself but sure glad I did not that darn slippery overhand knot saved my tag rack from a 20 meter fall to the deck today.
BTW, I put on a Black Diamond fifi on my tag rack the top-lifting hole will only take 3-4 mm cord, and the whole fifi seems a little small is there a better fifi for this purpose? This one sure seemed to kick off pretty easily by my gumby feet.
Pete, please help me understand the subtleties of the tag extension system - I did not set one up today, as the pitch is only about 45 meters - and it is becoming more clear to me that these complexities have not been arbitrarily added and are well with the gumbies full attention! I will not be able to discover the subtleties of the tag in my single pitch practice sessions, as they are too short.
Chad
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2003-01-04 19:32 ]
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twrock
Jan 5, 2003, 12:57 PM
Post #23 of 37
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Ok, I tried to follow your instructions Chad. I think something went wrong at #4 'cause when I was done pulling the knot loose, the rope was still through the biner. This EWNW (emphatically will not work) since there is no way I'm going to be able to pull my two #10 Trango Cams through a biner!
But, undeterred, I just started experimenting with tying some kind of knot to a biner that would hold in a downward pull but release in an upward pull, and I got one to work nicely. I haven't a clue if it is the slippery overhand knot, but it works just fine. I would describe the tying of it very differently than you did, so it probably is not the SO.
Regarding the fifi you are using, I think I was using an Edelrid Fifi on my haul bag for a solo attempt some years back. It also didn't have a huge hole in the top, but I rigged it somewhat like the picture of Krusty's fifi as shown in his photo here: http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=7647&forum=19&12 (scroll down to his post). However, I used spectra cord instead of the webbing and I made it so that the spectra cord and the 4 mm cord/fifi combination ended up almost exactly the same length, but with the 4 mm cord being ever so slightly longer (as opposed to Krusty's in which the black webbing is loose). Then I zip-tied them all together (but I think duct tape will work better). The weight of the pig was held by the spectra cord and the fifi was simply held in-line by the thinner cord.
If you click on Pete's link to the photo of his tag rack you will see that he uses a Cassin fifi. It looks like it has a fairly pronounced hook which might help with your foot problem. There may be another fifi with a bigger hole at the top, or you might just go ahead and drill the one you have out a bit (to 5.5 mil), but you could just do it like Krusty shows or I described. Yet another "alternate way."
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timpanogos
Jan 5, 2003, 6:23 PM
Post #24 of 37
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Hey Pete,
Sure enough, as Ron points out, I would have been screwed on a second tag. I only tagged from the ground to about 20 meters.
Chad
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2003-01-05 10:26 ]
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johnhenry
Jan 5, 2003, 10:37 PM
Post #25 of 37
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Registered: Feb 28, 2002
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I am with Ammon on this one!!!
I follow Pete on most of his techniques but this one is:
1.) By his own admission, potentially dangerous
2.) Exceedingly complicated (I still am scratching my head)
3.)Slow. Your gonna be tagging, stuffing and restuffing the rope multiple times
If your soloing A4 plus routes like Pete and doing just a couple pitches a day then this system may have some real merit.
Frankly, if my tag rack hung up one time ( and I know this has happened to Pete), I think I would start balling like a little kid.
In climbing, nothing is more complicated than solo aid climbing. This system makes solo aid climbing twice as complicated.
For now I will take just what the topo says I need and spend an extra 15-20 minutes a week cranking pull ups at the gym.
To each his own...
john
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