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robdotcalm
Mar 29, 2009, 9:18 PM
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To me the following seems obvious. The belayer (and let’s assume this is on the first pitch) should be in stable position so that he(/she) doesn’t crash into anything if the leader falls. (Full disclosure: I have twice been in a bad position when belaying from the ground and the leader fell. Good luck helped prevent serious consequences.) When I started climbing and we belayed around the waist, the importance of being anchored was emphasized. Part of the training was catching a 75 lb. sandbag that dropped 20 ft. or so from a tower.
A few years ago, I read a thread about an accident in Potrero Chico. Two experienced climbers were putting in a new sport route. The leader fell pulling the belayer 10 ft. up and into an overhang knocking him unconscious. A Grigri was being used and all survived. But in the discussion, no one mentioned the obvious: the possibility of the belayer hitting the overhang should have been guarded against. The quotations below from a recent thread about Grigris reinforced the notion that a significant change has occurred in which the stability and security of the belayer has come to be regarded as unimportant and that the belayer crashing into the rock or falling off a pedestal are acceptable. I can think of two reasons that contribute to this attitude. Since a Grigri can hold a fall even if the belayer is incapacitated, the belayer’s safety is not considered all that important (and you can’t blame Petzl for this). In sport climbing, a soft catch is often desirable. Thus the free upward movement of the belayer takes precedence over the risk of the belayer crashing into something. Both these ideas are so wrong, I shan’t “belay-bor” the obvious in explaining why other than to point out that in the Potrero Chico accident, the belayer could have been anchored so that he could have been pulled upward, say, 5 or 6 feet, to soften the catch but not so high that he risked being injured.
Do I always anchor in? No. It’s situational. If I can safely stand close to the wall, there are no fall offs in any direction, no close overhangs to be pulled into, and am heavier or comparable in weight to the leader, I may not anchor. But that’s a considered decision and not the default choice.
What pushed me into this post was something my climbing partner and I observed a couple of weeks ago. We arrived back at the base of an easy, traditional climb, just as two women were preparing to start up. The climb starts on a broad ledge with a 20 ft. drop off on the right. The leader starts by traversing right 20 ft. under a small overhang and then heading straight up. At the back of the ledge, about 15 ft. from the start is a large tree. When we climbed the route, my partner anchored off the tree by slinging it and tying in with the rope so that she could be close to the base of the cliff but with no risk of being pulled into it. She also placed a sling with a locker around the tree. Her idea was that she would be close to the cliff when I started to avoid an upward pull on the small gear I was placing in case I fell. Then when I got further up on the route, she could move back to the tree, clip into the sling with the locker and belay from a position in which she could see me. The new belayer had ignored the tree and inserted 3 pieces and hooked them to a cordelette and was standing close to the overhang. If the leader fell, she would have slammed into the cliff. From the women talking to each other, we guessed they were new to trad leading. But we wondered, who had taught them about a cordelette, which they used competently, but not about securing yourself against banging into the rock and not about looking for natural features such as a tree to use as an anchor.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
Here’s the original thread. I have done some selective quoting, which may not always be fair to the quoted. But, heck, this is the internet.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...d;page=unread#unread
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Angry
When I was jerked forward I tumbled into that chain. BOTH hands came off the rope and I grabbed the mess to stop you.
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USNavy
belayer took her hands off the rope when I took a lead fall because the fall caused her to be pulled into the rock.
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USNavy
In the end she was thrown into the rock from the fall.
the belayer was thrown into the rock the belayer was not paying attention and I fell when he was not looking, … the belayer slipped in fell backwards well standing on a rock which pulled me off the route.
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Jt512
I've gotten slammed into the occasional wall catching a fall, gotten slammed into a falling partner many times, and even once lost my footing belaying on a scree slope,
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USNaavy
I have gotten slammed into a falling partner a few times,."
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Caliclimbergirl
I briefly thought of anchoring in to something before he started climbing, but I didn't. He took a pretty significant fall that jerked me off my feet about 4 feet into the air. Not only did I hit the rock, but my shins hit the sharp edge pretty hard and left some nasty bruises and cuts.
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Camhead
I was about three bolts (35 feet) up on a climb, trying to climb above the fourth bolt to a better clipping stance, when I peeled. The thought of coming anywhere near the ground was nowhere in my mind.
However, as a combination of the first bolt being pretty high, and the weight difference between us, I wound up pulling her right up to the first bolt, and coming within a foot of the ground.
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Sungam
The only time it went bad is when I inverted on a gear-ripping fall and when I flicked back upright (the rope wasn't behind my foot) I kicked him in the chin as he sailed towards me.
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jt512
Mar 29, 2009, 9:26 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jt512 I've gotten slammed into the occasional wall catching a fall, gotten slammed into a falling partner many times, and even once lost my footing belaying on a scree slope, ---------------------------
When the belayer is on the ground, anchoring him usually does more harm than good. Please see the last 400 times I've posted on the subject. Needless to say, I'm tired of discussing it.
Jay
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bill413
Mar 29, 2009, 10:23 PM
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rob.calm - I'm with you. There are now people who are adamant about not tying in. Even if they are outweighed by their partner by 70+ pounds. This idea of a "soft catch" - while nice for steep routes where you won't hit anything seems quite inappropriate where the leader's chance of contacting the rock on the way down is only increased by a longer fall.
I really think that this has arisen from sport routes, where people are taking repeated falls while being belayed by devices that give no cushion to stopping the fall.
(Note - I am not railing against sport climbing or Grigris or any other discipline.)
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kaizer27
Mar 30, 2009, 2:11 PM
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interesting thread and I agree there are some situations where anchoring a belayer in would be good...like you mentioned if there is a serious ledge directly overhead, etc.
I have only had one real issue, which thankfully did not lead to a serious deck. I had a decent fall, probably 20 feet and my belayer was around 75 lbs lighter than me. It took her up to the first piece of pro. She let the line slip a little when she hit the pro but was able to get it back under control before i decked out. Scary, but it is what it is.
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havard
Mar 30, 2009, 3:45 PM
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Thanks for bringing this to my attention, sometimes there really are things for us new climbers to learn on this site! I will keep it in mind when I see climbs like that.
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notapplicable
Mar 30, 2009, 6:46 PM
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I think if there was ever an issue where "it depends" was the correct answer, this is it.
I do agree though. I see a lot of people (especially while climbing on gear) who should be anchored in and are putting themselves and their climber in danger by not doing so.
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cracklover
Mar 30, 2009, 7:33 PM
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Good post.
Here's a counterpoint:
I once witnessed an accident in which the climber pulled off a fridge-sized block which slid down the slab and landed right where the belayer had been standing (the belayer ran). If the belayer had been anchored down, he'd have been crushed, for sure.
Basically, I agree, it's rarely thought about these days, and it's definitely worth keeping in mind.
GO
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cracklover
Mar 30, 2009, 7:36 PM
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There's a very nice piece on the subject written by Marc Chauvin on pages 15 - 17 of this text of his about anchors. It discusses both the importance of an upward pull piece, and of stance.
GO
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robdotcalm
Mar 30, 2009, 11:34 PM
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cracklover wrote: Good post. Here's a counterpoint: I once witnessed an accident in which the climber pulled off a fridge-sized block which slid down the slab and landed right where the belayer had been standing (the belayer ran). If the belayer had been anchored down, he'd have been crushed, for sure. Basically, I agree, it's rarely thought about these days, and it's definitely worth keeping in mind. GO
Yes, it happens. When I first started climbing, a friend and I were climbing in Poudre Canyon (W of Ft. Collins, CO). We weren't smart enough to realize how bad the rock was. I was belaying tied into a tree. Then I followed. Touched some rock and a couple of hundred pounds came crashing down wiping out the tree. If he had loosened that rock, I would have died. Left us freaked out. We never climbed in that area again.
Like so much in climbing, what one does to secure the belayer is situational.
r.c
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clausti
Mar 30, 2009, 11:40 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: Camhead I was about three bolts (35 feet) up on a climb, trying to climb above the fourth bolt to a better clipping stance, when I peeled. The thought of coming anywhere near the ground was nowhere in my mind. However, as a combination of the first bolt being pretty high, and the weight difference between us, I wound up pulling her right up to the first bolt, and coming within a foot of the ground.
yeah- if you skip bolts on routes that are 40 degrees overhanging, you're gonna come close to the fucking ground. he outweighs me by 60 fucking pounds and i kept his ass off the ground.
i'm not anchoring to belay on that route in the future, either.
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robdotcalm
Mar 30, 2009, 11:54 PM
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jt512 wrote: I've gotten slammed into the occasional wall catching a fall, gotten slammed into a falling partner many times, and even once lost my footing belaying on a scree slope, ---------------------------
It’s exactly this strident attitude that caused me to start the thread. People are getting banged into the cliff and then proudly proclaiming, “but I held on to the belay.” It’s fine that they held on to the belay, but they have ignored the fact that they made a blunder, which caused them to slam into the cliff. None of the posters in the quoted thread asked what could I have done to prevent that. Reacting well to a bad occurrence does not absolve one from analyzing the errors that caused the situation in the first place.
Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus
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bill413
Mar 31, 2009, 12:10 AM
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I'm going to chime in again...we're getting several stories of "if I'd been tied in I'd have been hurt." But, there are also stories on the other side...I recall reading in one of the mags about a climber getting a belay...he fell, the belayer was dragged toward the cliff & stuck her hands up to ward off the rock. Needless to say, he cratered (but survived quite well, apparently).
I watched a belayer get pulled up & contact their climber during a fall - sorry, but there was a look of fear in the belayer's eyes (thank goodness it was a grigri).
It's situational.
But, to go into it by saying "I won't tie in" instead of saying "Should I tie in or not" will probably do more harm than benefit.
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jt512
Mar 31, 2009, 12:10 AM
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robdotcalm wrote: jt512 wrote: I've gotten slammed into the occasional wall catching a fall, gotten slammed into a falling partner many times, and even once lost my footing belaying on a scree slope, --------------------------- It’s exactly this strident attitude that caused me to start the thread. People are getting banged into the cliff and then proudly proclaiming, “but I held on to the belay.” It’s fine that they held on to the belay, but they have ignored the fact that they made a blunder, which caused them to slam into the cliff. None of the posters in the quoted thread asked what could I have done to prevent that. Reacting well to a bad occurrence does not absolve one from analyzing the errors that caused the situation in the first place. Gratias et valete bene! RobertusPunctumPacificus
Well, for every such "mistake" I've made while not anchored, I've done 100 things correctly that I could not have done had I been anchored. For a skilled belayer on the ground, it is usually safer---for both the climber and the belayer—for the belayer not to be anchored. For those belayers whose idea of belaying is just to stand there locked off no matter what, then, yeah, you might as well tie them down, for all the good they do, anyway.
Jay
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jt512
Mar 31, 2009, 12:15 AM
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bill413 wrote: I watched a belayer get pulled up & contact their climber during a fall - sorry, but there was a look of fear in the belayer's eyes (thank goodness it was a grigri).
You "watched" that happen? You mean it's never happened to you? It happens to me all the time. It's usually unavoidable if my partner falls above the first bolt, and often the second.
Jay
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billcoe_
Mar 31, 2009, 12:25 AM
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robdotcalm wrote: A few years ago, I read a thread about an accident in Potrero Chico. Two experienced climbers were putting in a new sport route. The leader fell pulling the belayer 10 ft. up and into an overhang knocking him unconscious. A Grigri was being used and all survived. But in the discussion, no one mentioned the obvious: the possibility of the belayer hitting the overhang should have been guarded against.
Nice rant in general - however, the part above, I think a big block with a bolt that was clipped in it came off. That's a 1 in 10,000 kind of thing happening. Without knowing specifics and seeing the route, I'm not calling bullshit on those dudes (Potreo Ed and Randy?) Those guys have put up a lot of routes and are highly experienced.
There's lots more N00b things to rail against,: carry on sir!
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camhead
Mar 31, 2009, 2:24 AM
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anchoring in a belayer on a single pitch climb is not necessarily the answer to any of rob's quoted anecdotes. I can only speak about my own quoted experience, though.
When I said "came within a foot of the ground on the thirty foot fall," I meant that I fell about fifteen feet before I started pulling my belayer up. I was rapidly decelerating, and, had I gone the extra foot to "hit" the ground, it would have been a soft touch, nothing more. It was quite a bit less dramatic than the original quote implies.
Ideally, just get belayed by somebody that weighs the same as you. If I think I am going to be taking big falls, I usually do not get beayed by clausti. On steep terrain it is a pain in the ass to get back on the rock, and on ledgy terrain it is dangerous.
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Johnny_Fang
Mar 31, 2009, 4:59 AM
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jt512 wrote: When the belayer is on the ground, anchoring him usually does more harm than good. Please see the last 400 times I've posted on the subject. Needless to say, I'm tired of discussing it. Jay
i thought you were done discussing this.
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darkgift06
Apr 1, 2009, 5:44 PM
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years ago when I started climbing with my dad & his friends (me being 10 or so) I would tie in to a tree or large boulder with a sling or 2 & a locker to avoid being pulled into & up the wall. It only ever happened a hand full of times in many years but I recall being JOLTED quite harshly & not from the climber side but rather from the tie in side.
This weekend I'm going climbing with a beginner & shes quite a bit lighter than I.. I will be tieing her off, & using a Grigri for peace of mind.
Any Idea in how I could get some stretch between belay & anchor so that its not so static.
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bill413
Apr 1, 2009, 5:53 PM
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Bungie cord?
Screamer?
Clipping her belay loop to the anchor, not clipping into the back of her harness?
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darkgift06
Apr 1, 2009, 5:56 PM
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my first thought was also Bungie cord... maybe a foot or 6" just enough to give some stretch to the system.
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clausti
Apr 1, 2009, 6:48 PM
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darkgift06 wrote: This weekend I'm going climbing with a beginner & shes quite a bit lighter than I.. I will be tieing her off, & using a Grigri for peace of mind. Any Idea in how I could get some stretch between belay & anchor so that its not so static.
shoot me in the face for trying but...
1. don't use a bungee chord. what happens if your break it or the hooks come off? she's not going to be wearing freaking safety glasses, and who knows what the tolerances on a god damn bungee chord are, or if they're even consistent from one to another. a bungee chord is not safety equipment.
2. If she's a beginner and you don't trust her belay, you're presumably not going to be going out with JUST her ARE YOU?? cause that's a bad idea.
3. you're better off just having her belay, and have your 3rd person back her up so she gets used to catching people heavier than her. if she's pretty light and is going to continue climbing, with you or anyone else, she might as well get used to it.
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k.l.k
Apr 1, 2009, 6:52 PM
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darkgift06 wrote: This weekend I'm going climbing with a beginner & shes quite a bit lighter than I.. I will be tieing her off, & using a Grigri for peace of mind. Any Idea in how I could get some stretch between belay & anchor so that its not so static.
I would never, ever, take any beginner on any route that I couldn't down solo. If you have a beginner giving you a belay, you are soloing. If it is a short sport route, I'll self-lower rather than making them lower me.
Gri-gri my ass.
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darkgift06
Apr 1, 2009, 9:21 PM
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I did have my doubts about the Bungie idea.... & wasn't 100% on it.. & probably wouldn't have used that untill I had done some testing on it... (belay a friend 5' up or so & have him fall "X" amount of times) just see what kinda stretch it would take & how comfortable I felt about it..
I will be going with a small group 4 probably maybe 5. She does know some basics about belaying but we plan to go thru & teach her or re-teach her so that I'm comfortable b4 climbing with her on the belay, & we will be climbing to her level so like K.I.K. said "I would never, ever, take any beginner on any route that I couldn't down solo" I agree. we will be on a short wall 15m or so & 5.6-9 range... nothing overhanging or fun :( but it will be fun for her so then it makes it fun for me.
I don't think I agree with self lowering.. I want her to learn how to belay & want her to feel comfortable doing it & practice makes perfect. After a few demo's let some other people climb first & show her how I'm belaying them.
In the end its all on how comfortable I am with her holding that important end of rope.
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clausti
Apr 1, 2009, 10:28 PM
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darkgift06 wrote: I want her to learn how to belay & want her to feel comfortable doing it & practice makes perfect. After a few demo's let some other people climb first & show her how I'm belaying them. In the end its all on how comfortable I am with her holding that important end of rope.
have her do a lot of belaying on the trip, but have somebody back her up all day the first day. good luck, have fun.
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jt512
Apr 1, 2009, 10:51 PM
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darkgift06 wrote: In the end its all on how comfortable I am with her holding that important end of rope.
Actually your comfort level is largely irrelevant, especially given that you would apparently have been comfortable with tying her in with a bungee cord. It's her skill level that's important.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 1, 2009, 10:53 PM)
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