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Durin
Apr 19, 2009, 10:11 PM
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I currently don't have an autolocking belay device.
I'm under the assumption that grigris are quite versatile devices and can be used for everything from sport climbing to short fixing and TR soloing.
The Cinch is a cheaper and lighter alternative(and should take my 9.4mm rope better), but I'm curious if it's as effective with certain activities like short fixing and TR soloing.
Basically, if I were just to use it for sport climbing, I'd get a Cinch... but if it isn't as versatile I'd rather just get a grigri. Faders SUM and the Eddy are too heavy for my liking.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
EDIT: I'm also under the assumption that the newest version of the Cinch performs better on rappels than previous versions.
Also, can the cinch be used as a hands-free top belay device like the ATC Guide? If so, does the rope slide through the device relatively easily?
If short fixing is possible with the Cinch, does it need modifications like the grigri?
(This post was edited by Durin on Apr 19, 2009, 10:15 PM)
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Myxomatosis
Apr 20, 2009, 12:27 AM
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Ive only used the older verson (small handle) for a few pitchs of belaying.
Its alot better for leading with than the grigri, hands down and about on par for top roping on (but lowering is a bit of pain with the small handle). I also consider it a bit safer than the grigri.
As for rope solo'ing... Id say its probably not the best choice. It sure does lock up sometimes when its loaded/rope is weighted by a climber resting. And the handle is a PITA when that happens as its tiny and can't really pull on it.
Still... Id get one over a grigri just coz its a bit nicer for leading on.
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ahimsa
Apr 20, 2009, 12:40 AM
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Durin wrote: I currently don't have an autolocking belay device. Also, can the cinch be used as a hands-free top belay device like the ATC Guide? If so, does the rope slide through the device relatively easily? If short fixing is possible with the Cinch, does it need modifications like the grigri?[/quote The cinch is incredible for hands free top belays. Pulls through like a pulley and locks up easily. Pulling a handle back to lower is also a lot easier then finagling a nut tool into the atc slot and leveraging. Better than that it's light and compact enough to justify bringing on a multi-pitch route, and it hangs well for the job from an anchor.
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Carnage
Apr 20, 2009, 3:42 AM
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you're just a noob if you have trouble rapping on a cinch. Just practice it a few time and you'll get the hang of it.
I do it all the time when setting routes in the gym. if you get going too fast just let go of the lever... no big deal (note: i dont have one of the tiny handle ones)
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irregularpanda
Apr 20, 2009, 5:26 AM
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Durin wrote: Any input would be greatly appreciated.
No problem. In my experience, the grigri AND the cinch are most useful as paperweights.
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sspssp
Apr 20, 2009, 6:05 PM
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Myxomatosis wrote: Ive only used the older verson (small handle)...(but lowering is a bit of pain with the small handle)
Lowering is the main thing that got "fixed" between the original and the revamped version. The new one is way better. Yea, it takes a little getting used to (most belay devices do), but I can lower with it as smoothly as a grigri.
I do notice that if I get picked up off the ground after catching a sport fall, it is a little harder to release the rope than a grigri. But part of the reason for this is that grigris don't grab the rope as well in the first place. On the other hand, if the rope is fatter than about 10.2, I would rather use a grigri.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 20, 2009, 6:19 PM)
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sspssp
Apr 20, 2009, 6:16 PM
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Durin wrote: I'm under the assumption that grigris are quite versatile devices and can be used for everything from sport climbing to short fixing and TR soloing. The Cinch is a cheaper and lighter alternative(and should take my 9.4mm rope better), but I'm curious if it's as effective with certain activities like short fixing and TR soloing. Basically, if I were just to use it for sport climbing, I'd get a Cinch... but if it isn't as versatile I'd rather just get a grigri. Faders SUM and the Eddy are too heavy for my liking. If short fixing is possible with the Cinch, does it need modifications like the grigri?
I've short-fixed with the grigri but saying the grigri is a versatile device that is appropriate for this is a bit of a stretch.
I've not tried short-fixing or solo-topropping with the cinch. The device grabs even skinny ropes very securely, but with the device cocked open, the rope feeds so easily, I don't think I would feel secure about trying it (at least, not without some extensive practice with some sort of backup). When jugging skinny ropes, I have put the cinch on below the jugs (as a backup, for what it is worth) and I didn't have problems with the rope feeding.
However, I wouldn't short fix with a grigri and a 9.4mm. With that skinny of a rope, I would take the cinch hands down (regardless of the comments above). Grigris just weren't designed for that skinny of ropes (grigri have been around for what, 15+ years?, back when a 10.5 was a skinny)
I find the cinch light enough that I take it on multi-pitch. Having a device that is so forgiving (in ability to lock up the rope) makes it easier to do things like adjust clothing, rope management, eat a snack bar, etc.
But I haven't found the cinch to be a replacement for a big wall environment (but I'm not climbing on a 9.4 in that environment either).
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james481
Apr 20, 2009, 6:59 PM
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As far as I know, Trango warns explicitly not to use the Cinch for solo-TR. I'm not sure if there is any specific safety issue or if they simply don't "certify" it for that use, though. However, keep up this talk, and Malcolm Daly is bound to come around sooner or later and start yelling at you... 
Don't say I didn't warn you...
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Durin
Apr 20, 2009, 7:06 PM
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In reply to: But I haven't found the cinch to be a replacement for a big wall environment (but I'm not climbing on a 9.4 in that environment either).
To clarify, I wasn't actually planning to take the 9.4 as a lead line on a big wall.
The cinch is light enough for multipitch, but is the camming action "dynamic" enough that it can be a substitute for a tube-style device for lead belaying on trad gear?
Thanks for the help.
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billcoe_
Apr 20, 2009, 9:14 PM
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james481 wrote: As far as I know, Trango warns explicitly not to use the Cinch for solo-TR. I'm not sure if there is any specific safety issue or if they simply don't "certify" it for that use, though. However, keep up this talk, and Malcolm Daly is bound to come around sooner or later and start yelling at you... Don't say I didn't warn you...
LOL!
I think that the scissoring action of the Cinch makes it potentially a train wreck for soloing/short fixing. However, for lead climbing it works better, and its lighter.
Backup knots:-)
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robbovius
Apr 20, 2009, 10:45 PM
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Durin wrote: I'm under the assumption that grigris are quite versatile devices and can be used for everything from sport climbing to short fixing and TR soloing. The Cinch is a cheaper and lighter alternative(and should take my 9.4mm rope better), but I'm curious if it's as effective with certain activities like short fixing and TR soloing. ?
I own both a (death-modded) grigri and an old short-handle cinch, and over the last 4 years, have used them both for toproping, toprope self-belay, and roped-solo leading. I have used the cinch for lead belay, but not the grigri, as feeding rope is noticably more difficult.
the grigri is a very good tool for toprope belay, and toprope self-belay even without the death mod. though without the death mod, you do have to take a stance and pull rope thru the device as you climb. its not such a big deal.
for toprope self-belay, the cinch will flow rope much more easily than even a deathmod grigri, or, has in my experience. I used to use it alot for roped-solo self-belay, but after a conversation with Malcomb, have stopped and bought a wren soloist. the cinch is not tested for any kind of self belay, and, unlike the grigri, hasn't the long-term use data that might make the company re-evaluate that position and do the rope-solo specific testing. Also, as malcomb related to me, the cinch failed catching the test weight (80 kilos IIRC) with a backup knot against the device. after that I retired mine from rope-solo use.
I haven't used the newer vesion of the cinch with the longer handle, and (if I understadn correctly) a repositioned pivot, that makes the release easier.
for mine I cut a length of heater hose to make a handle extension that I tied to one of my nut tools, with some tech cord. I carry it when I'm using the cinch.
the cinch can absolutely be used to belay the second from the anchor on lead. in that use its just like the grigri.
for lead belay using the cinch is, well, a cinch. once you figure out the way to hold the device in your hand so that the gate is open flowing rope to the leader is nas eaqsy as any tube-type, and if the leader falls, it locks right up. the downsideis that if you're carying it on multipitch, you have to carry a second belay device if you'll be rapping off on double strands.
from my experience, especially if you're going to use ropes thinner than 9.8 mm, the cinch would be the better choice.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Apr 20, 2009, 10:48 PM)
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sspssp
Apr 22, 2009, 6:45 PM
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Durin wrote: In reply to: But I haven't found the cinch to be a replacement for a big wall environment (but I'm not climbing on a 9.4 in that environment either). To clarify, I wasn't actually planning to take the 9.4 as a lead line on a big wall. The cinch is light enough for multipitch, but is the camming action "dynamic" enough that it can be a substitute for a tube-style device for lead belaying on trad gear?
This concept about letting rope slip through the belay device for a dynamic catch is, in my opinion, vastly overrated (but there has already been plenty of threads on that...). Like a grigr, I don't believe there is a significant amount of rope slippage when the device catches. I don't tie in super tight to the anchor on multi-pitch. So even if the device locks down, I can only generate around 150lb force before being lifted up. Although multi-pitch leader falls are somewhat rare (at least for my partner and I) I've caught a few and have never been yanked up so high that I came tight on the anchor. So I can't say I have any concern about this...
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no_email_entered
Apr 22, 2009, 6:56 PM
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This is fairly recent---
---and has some good Mal
(This post was edited by no_email_entered on Apr 22, 2009, 7:46 PM)
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adatesman
Apr 22, 2009, 7:21 PM
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sspssp
Apr 22, 2009, 8:53 PM
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No I wasn't. There was a reason I said "around" instead of exactly. And I don't actually even weigh 150 (although I might with a summit pack on).
But most multi-pitch falls all less than vertical and with the rope snaking through the gear, most of the falls I have caught haven't lifted me up at all. So the force that was generated was under ~150.
But even the one or two falls that have picked me up a couple of feet can't get that much higher. It's not like a free air sport fall where you might get picked up 8 feet or more.
And finally, I mostly climb Sierra granite and I don't mind generating higher falls. The placements can handle it and higher forces mean shorter falls (and less chance of bouncing off that ledge down there).
cheers
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Durin
Apr 23, 2009, 4:19 AM
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Just because you aren't lifted up doesn't mean the protection takes less than or exactly 150lbs...
With the tension on both ends of the rope, and friction on the rock and all those biners, you could definitely put 4-5kn onto the protection without lifting up a 150lb belayer.
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sspssp
Apr 23, 2009, 6:16 PM
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That is certainly true (and one that had crossed my mind). But let's assume I had used an atc. Am I really going to get any rope slipping through when the forces on the rope/belay device are less than 100lbs? (This is less force than when you lower someone in a gym.) I really don't see it. Unless you are intentionally trying to feed rope through by holding the rope up in a "non-brake" position, which just doesn't sound too smart to me.
But I doubt you are getting anywhere as high as 4-5kn. If the protection is feeling a force of 4-5kn, then that means the leader is experiencing 4-5kn at their waist/harness. From my trad lead falls (caught with my partner's cinch/grigri), I just don't believe it.
But ultimatley, I've not been too worried about pulling gear from too high forces. I've just not seen it in the generally high quality granite that I usually climb on. And for iffy placements, I could always add a screamer.
cheers
(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 23, 2009, 6:20 PM)
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Durin
Apr 23, 2009, 11:29 PM
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In reply to: If the protection is feeling a force of 4-5kn, then that means the leader is experiencing 4-5kn at their waist/harness.
NO.
If the leader experiences 3kn at their waist/harness, then there's tension on the entire length of the rope, which means the rope on the belayer side of the protection, and on the climber side. The tensions are added together. The protection will take substantially more than 3kn, closer to 6kn (not quite because of friction).
That's why pulleys rated to take 20kn can only take 10kn of tension on the rope.
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Crack_Addict_Ty
Apr 24, 2009, 1:58 PM
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You guys realize that a 3kN fall is quite a whipper. Most lead falls are 1kN or less.
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sspssp
Apr 24, 2009, 7:34 PM
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Durin wrote: In reply to: If the protection is feeling a force of 4-5kn, then that means the leader is experiencing 4-5kn at their waist/harness. NO. If the leader experiences 3kn at their waist/harness, then there's tension on the entire length of the rope...
Oops, got me on that one. But I agree with the post above, even a 1kn fall is a pretty extreme fall, which only corresponds to 2kn on the placement.
And I'm not trying to talk anyone out of belaying with atc's or whatever, it is just that I think that this dynamic belay concept is overblown. And there are some significant upsides to an autolocking device. If your leader falls while you are busy sorting out a tangle, your leader pulls a block off that knocks the belayer out, the autolocker will most likely still catch, etc.
Some of the "tests" I've seen (to check the forces on an autolocking belay catch) have apparently connected a grigri directly to a fixed anchor (equivilent to lead belaying with the grigri directly off a bolted anchor) and then looked at forces from high factor falls. I just don't think that has much to do with the reality of multi-pitch falls.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 24, 2009, 7:41 PM)
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shoo
Apr 24, 2009, 7:49 PM
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Since when is 1kn an "extreme" fall???? Let's do a little math here. 1 kn = about 225 pounds of force. That's not too far from the amount of force you would experience GENTLY HANGING ON YOUR ROPE (body weight).
Sometimes, numbers mean things.
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jackson.peter
Jun 9, 2010, 8:41 PM
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I realize this is an old thread, but I wanted to note that the forces generated by a fall are a much more complicated issue than what this discussion has captured.
For an example of the various considerations, try this PDF that outlines the variables in calculating forces felt in leader falls.
The crux of this document is that the protection, the leader, and the belayer will all feel different levels of force in a leader fall. The entire protection system has to be considered, including the rope's elongation characteristics.
The URL where I retrieved the PDF from is:
http://wallrat.com/...orcesinleadfalls.pdf
As for the original topic of discussion: I love the Trango Cinch, but not for self-belay.
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forcesinleadfalls.pdf
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