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ladyscarlett
Apr 29, 2009, 1:10 AM
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Hmm, once again...interesting.
Good to know about the girth to the tie in points as "ok." I think I like that idea as I don't want too much confusion on my belay loop - too much "stuff" cqn confuse the newbie. I'm not zoning out on my belay loop when I should be pulling and flaking the rope, I'm just trying to solve the Gordian Knot! Heh.
Sooo, you all helped the newbie learn that a "personal tether" (I like that!) is not a bad idea, but doesn't need to specifically be a daisy chain. One more thing to put on the harness!
The whole, metal on the belay loop, soft stuff in the tie in is a nice little way to remember the foundation. I'm sure I will come to situations where an exception is mandatory, but nonetheless, it's a great way to remember the norm.
And just to share a bit, after reading everyone's experiences, I will continue to chuckle when I hear "THIS IS THE ONE AND ONLY WAY!" as interesting discussions such as these consistently proves this wrong. I love it!
cheers!
ls
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bill413
Apr 29, 2009, 1:19 AM
Post #102 of 191
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ls -
Gratz for provoking a discussion & weeding through it for useful information.
I'm not sure that's in the traditions of RC.com, but.....well done.
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ladyscarlett
Apr 29, 2009, 1:23 AM
Post #103 of 191
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bill413 wrote: k.l.k wrote: jt512 wrote: sgreer wrote: Daisy's are essential for rappel routes whether going on or off rappel. They are? That's odd. In over 20 years of free climbing, I've never even once carried a daisy chain. Honestly, I'm frickin amazed that anyone even climbs anymore. Helmet, daisy/pas, cordelette, prussik, dedicated klemheist/rap-backup, nut-cleaning tool, rap device, belay gloves, and frickin belay license hanging off the back of the overbuilt harness-- and that's before they start strapping on 40lbs of cams, pack w. forty essentials, gallon of water, caving lamp, and the overpackaged REI heavy-duty first aid kit. it's no wonder most of the folks on this site grovel so badly. It's a frickin miracle most of them ever get off the ground. OMG - you forgot the lead license!
GASP!! That's REALLY unsafe...leading without a lead license?! what is this world coming too?! That's worse than me rappelling all this time without a daisy chain!
I have a theory that people carry more because the weight keeps them warm. I have no basis for this, just a random speculation. It is fun to go into the gym with the bare minimum of what I have standard on my harness for outdoors, exclusive of pro. "That's sooo much stuff!!!" I laugh and tell them it's because I lost a bet, and am weight training so I can haul the beer up the rock....
Fun times out there!
ls
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Lazlo
Apr 29, 2009, 1:41 AM
Post #104 of 191
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k.l.k wrote: jt512 wrote: sgreer wrote: Daisy's are essential for rappel routes whether going on or off rappel. They are? That's odd. In over 20 years of free climbing, I've never even once carried a daisy chain. Honestly, I'm frickin amazed that anyone even climbs anymore. Helmet, daisy/pas, cordelette, prussik, dedicated klemheist/rap-backup, nut-cleaning tool, rap device, belay gloves, and frickin belay license hanging off the back of the overbuilt harness-- and that's before they start strapping on 40lbs of cams, pack w. forty essentials, gallon of water, caving lamp, and the overpackaged REI heavy-duty first aid kit. it's no wonder most of the folks on this site grovel so badly. It's a frickin miracle most of them ever get off the ground.
forty essentials?
I thought it was the "ten essentials"? 
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robdotcalm
Apr 29, 2009, 2:44 AM
Post #106 of 191
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Most everything that can be said and can be refuted has already been said and refuted on this thread. However, reluctant as I am, I’ll add one more item, the Metolius Rabbit Runner
http://www.backcountry.com/...r-Spectra-Sling.html
This is my favorite specialty sling. When I’m trad climbing, I always carry one or two with a small locking carabiner on the loops at the end of the sling. They can be slipped off one-handed by opening the carabiner.
Uses: (a) good for slinging chock stones ; (b) good for threading through a hole while on lead or at a belay stance; (c) great for a personal tether attaching yourself either to bolts or natural pro at a belay stance, can be used full length open or half length. I usually attach around the belay loop.(d) good for when you need an extra length runner to reduce drag on the rope when the route veers.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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happiegrrrl
Apr 29, 2009, 2:54 AM
Post #107 of 191
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This thread really seems to have it all! It's like a microcosm of the internet.
I guess if someone threw in a few girlie pictures, then it would be complete. Maybe that rear view one of the blond looking at a JTree formation, naked but for her saran wrap daisy chain....
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kylekienitz
Apr 29, 2009, 3:33 AM
Post #108 of 191
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So what about anchors that are built from a static sling? If a PAS (or other static tether) can't take a factor 2 fall, then what's to say that the piece of sling that the tether is clipped to won't fail also... or first for that matter?
i'm quite curious.
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sgreer
Apr 29, 2009, 5:58 AM
Post #109 of 191
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In reply to: In reply to: Daisy's are essential for rappel routes whether going on or off rappel. They are? That's odd. In over 20 years of free climbing, I've never even once carried a daisy chain. Jay
Ok Jay, so here's the scenario, Sunday I climbed the royal arches with a buddy. We shared a rope. My cousin and his buddy climbed the route as well. They shared another line.
The rappel route can be done with a single line but it is much faster and safer with two. If you are a party of two, it is kind of a pain in the ass to carry the extra line for 15 pitches. So, generally it is nice to hook up with another party at the top, join the ropes and simul rap two at a time down the lines.
The route has at least 10 rappels. How do the first two guys come off the lines without some sort of way to connect to the anchor? Be it a sling, quick draw, whatever you call it, it functions as a daisy. How, even with a party of two and a single line, would you come off rappel if you have multiple stops on shear granite?
Come on Jay. Tell me how to do it safely and I'll never use a daisy again. Don't tell me to hike off either.
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jt512
Apr 29, 2009, 6:10 AM
Post #110 of 191
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sgreer wrote: In reply to: In reply to: Daisy's are essential for rappel routes whether going on or off rappel. They are? That's odd. In over 20 years of free climbing, I've never even once carried a daisy chain. Jay Ok Jay, so here's the scenario, Sunday I climbed the royal arches with a buddy. We shared a rope. My cousin and his buddy climbed the route as well. They shared another line. The rappel route can be done with a single line but it is much faster and safer with two. If you are a party of two, it is kind of a pain in the ass to carry the extra line for 15 pitches. So, generally it is nice to hook up with another party at the top, join the ropes and simul rap two at a time down the lines. The route has at least 10 rappels. How do the first two guys come off the lines without some sort of way to connect to the anchor? Be it a sling, quick draw, whatever you call it, it functions as a daisy. How, even with a party of two and a single line, would you come off rappel if you have multiple stops on shear granite? Come on Jay. Tell me how to do it safely and I'll never use a daisy again. Don't tell me to hike off either.
A sling is not a daisy chain, Dipshit.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 29, 2009, 6:28 AM)
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tradrenn
Apr 29, 2009, 8:40 AM
Post #111 of 191
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D.C. is just another useless thing to carry up the climb that gets tangled between gear.
I think you would be better of learning "clove hitch - one handed"
http://www.climerware.com/clove.shtml
Save your money.
HTH
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rtwilli4
Apr 29, 2009, 9:05 AM
Post #112 of 191
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I use a Metolius PAS when I climb single pitch and the rope when multi pitching.
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rgold
Apr 29, 2009, 1:37 PM
Post #113 of 191
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I've added a strong caution to my original post about tethers, influenced by the comments of Dingus, Cracklover, and Vegastradguy. I considered simply deleting the passage, but it is referred to by others anyway so might it might as well stay. I agree that the comment is particularly inappropriate in a beginner's forum. Old codgers should keep their idiosyncratic practices to themselves.
k.l.k. rants about the increasing amount of gear people carry, and he has a point. As I said in another post, my rack today is easily twice the size of the original nut racks I climbed with thirty years ago. Of course, the level of protection I enjoy is far more than twice as good, so the bargain, especially for a superannuated climber whose powers are declining, seems worth whatever reduction in ability is due to extra weight rather than advancing years.
But perhaps he goes a bit overboard by including everything but the kitchen sink? I do have a tether on my harness and use it, as I described, over and over again on almost every climb. It isn't even remotely essential, it is just convenient and adds to the party's efficiency. I learned about the idea from Marc Twight's book on Extreme Alpinism. Marc is not known as a fan of extra baggage.
My chalk bag pocket contains two small prussik loops (the tether means I don't need a long one). I have used these once in the past twenty years to rescue a relative beginner I was climbing with who had the rope jam in their ATC on an overhanging rappel and was stuck hanging in space. Since I was above them, I had to prussik down the rope to help out. I could have rigged the same thing with slings, but they are far more prone to slipping under high loads, and I had to take this climber's weight as well as my own on the prussiks in order to free the ATC.
I do carry belay gloves, and have for years. Unlike most climbers today, I have practiced catching high fall-factor falls and have had to catch a factor-2 fall in real life. I know what can happen, and I don't want it to happen to me. That said, I have never been in a belay situation since I started regularly using gloves that actually required them.
I don't carry a cordalette.
I usually wear a Petz Meteor helmet. I hate wearing a helmet, but I'm in the thinking business and don't think a brain injury would further my career. The amount of stuff raining down a popular Gunks crag on a weekend can make it seem like an alpine north wall.
I have one of those Petzl harnesses that are made of mostly mesh. Their strength, such as it is, seems to depend on seam binding tape. The belay loop has fewer bar tacks than most other brand harnessess. "Overbuilt" is not the operative term.
Since the helmet is pretty standard nowadays, I'm not counting it as extra baggage. That leaves the tether, small prussiks, and gloves. We're talking ounces.
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dingus
Apr 29, 2009, 1:54 PM
Post #114 of 191
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rgold I'm sure you know this but I wasn't so much taking exception to your statement as just pointing out that thinking climbers can and should examine even an expert's opinion and apply the expert's advice to their own climbing in a thoughtful manner.
Rather than everyone rushing out to buy a cordalette, for example.
I don't believe this whole tether issue is all that important in the grand scheme, myself.
I have realized the utility of the Yate addj daisy, esp. for fixed rope work and lots of raps. Its the adjustability that shines.
I think new and progressing climbers would do well to learn of the benefits and weaknesses of incorporating a daisy or a tether into their kit, experiment a bit and decide for themselves.
Cheers
DMT
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bill413
Apr 29, 2009, 2:08 PM
Post #115 of 191
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jt512 wrote: sgreer wrote: In reply to: In reply to: Daisy's are essential for rappel routes whether going on or off rappel. They are? That's odd. In over 20 years of free climbing, I've never even once carried a daisy chain. Jay Ok Jay, so here's the scenario, Sunday I climbed the royal arches with a buddy. We shared a rope. My cousin and his buddy climbed the route as well. They shared another line. The rappel route can be done with a single line but it is much faster and safer with two. If you are a party of two, it is kind of a pain in the ass to carry the extra line for 15 pitches. So, generally it is nice to hook up with another party at the top, join the ropes and simul rap two at a time down the lines. The route has at least 10 rappels. How do the first two guys come off the lines without some sort of way to connect to the anchor? Be it a sling, quick draw, whatever you call it, it functions as a daisy. How, even with a party of two and a single line, would you come off rappel if you have multiple stops on shear granite? Come on Jay. Tell me how to do it safely and I'll never use a daisy again. Don't tell me to hike off either. A sling is not a daisy chain, Dipshit. Jay
I took exception to the "essential" statement - that would say to mean you almost always need them to rappel. Nope.
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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 2:16 PM
Post #116 of 191
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dingus wrote: I think new and progressing climbers would do well to learn of the benefits and weaknesses of incorporating a daisy or a tether into their kit, experiment a bit and decide for themselves.
Ok, I have to disagree with this, at least as a general statement. I guess it depends on what we mean by "beginning." If the beginner has done at least several pitches of aid climbing, using daisies for their intended purpose, and understands the difference from convenience slings, then maybe.
I don't know about Yates but BD specifically warns against the uses we've been describing.
The reason is simple: The daisy loops are not stitched to hold a serious load. One plausible scenario: You clip in tight with yr daisy, standing on a ledge. A falling rock or tumbling body knocks you off the ledge-- yr top loop stitching breaks followed in rapid succession by all the others and you land hard at full length on the end with little to no shock absorption from the nylon.
I believe you when you say you sometimes use a daisy. I bet that 80% of those times you are doing a route that may involve cleaning or a possible point of aid or (god helps us) a bit of jiggery-pokery of some other sort perhaps involving boltguns. The other 20% you had just left it in yr pack and forgot about it.
Beginners need to learn how to multi-purpose, and that means learning how to use a frickin sling. The last thing a beginner needs is another piece of specialized dedicated gear, especially one that is not designed nor intended for that use.
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dingus
Apr 29, 2009, 2:28 PM
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k.l.k wrote: dingus wrote: I think new and progressing climbers would do well to learn of the benefits and weaknesses of incorporating a daisy or a tether into their kit, experiment a bit and decide for themselves. Ok, I have to disagree with this, at least as a general statement. I guess it depends on what we mean by "beginning." If the beginner has done at least several pitches of aid climbing, using daisies for their intended purpose, and understands the difference from convenience slings, then maybe. I don't know about Yates but BD specifically warns against the uses we've been describing. The reason is simple: The daisy loops are not stitched to hold a serious load. One plausible scenario: You clip in tight with yr daisy, standing on a ledge. A falling rock or tumbling body knocks you off the ledge-- yr top loop stitching breaks followed in rapid succession by all the others and you land hard at full length on the end with little to no shock absorption from the nylon. I believe you when you say you sometimes use a daisy. I bet that 80% of those times you are doing a route that may involve cleaning or a possible point of aid or (god helps us) a bit of jiggery-pokery of some other sort perhaps involving boltguns. The other 20% you had just left it in yr pack and forgot about it. Beginners need to learn how to multi-purpose, and that means learning how to use a frickin sling. The last thing a beginner needs is another piece of specialized dedicated gear, especially one that is not designed nor intended for that use.
Actually rgold and I were specifically discussing using some sort of tether for rappelling.
Beginners NEED TO THINK for themselves, from day one. They need to understand (if they don't already) their safety is THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. Not someone else's.
When I do incorporate a daisy into a belay its in 'backup' config... the rope tie-in is the primary. The daisy or tether or sling is a backup. I find this particularly useful if belay antics are necessary - switching rope ends, etc. Having that daisy already in the mix simplifies belay clusters, for me anyway.
I don't use a daisy as a primary anchor, though I have certainly done so in the past.
Yates Adj daisies are quite strong but the buckle mecnanism wouldn't hold up to any kind of serious fall, no. The device would extend to its full length, for sure.
Anyway, I will steadfastly promote the notion that ALL CLIMBERS need to think for themselves. I think many 'liability aware' formal learning settings encourage folks to 'do as I say and don't bother thinking about it.'
I think that mentality leads directly to the 40 Essentials you yourself complained about.
THINK. I see no danger in recommending climbers, beginners and shaggy old dogs included, to THINK FOR THEMSELVES and evaluate gear and technique in light of their own requirements.
That's all I'm trying to say bro.
DMT
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andersjr
Apr 29, 2009, 2:36 PM
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currupt4130 wrote: I won't climb without a sling girth hitched to my belay loop and a locker on the end of it. It's come in handy so often I can't even fathom leaving it on the ground. I use it when: -I need to give my belayer a break if I'm hang dogging -I need to clean top anchors on a route -I'm in direct to clean some gear that's impossibly stuck (thank you whoever left a nut on Four Sheets To The Wind) -As an initial connection when building an anchor on multi -When I'm setting up top ropes as a safety in case I trip and fall -When I'm goofing off at the base of the crag and playing with sketchy gear placements There's probably more that I'm missing, but that's a good bit of usage in my book.
i can't fathom doing this. your belay loop is meant for metal that may slide up and down it. using nylon on this may create a nylon on nylon sawing effect that isn't so kind. do not just rely on this.
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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 2:42 PM
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dingus wrote: Beginners NEED TO THINK for themselves, from day one. They need to understand (if they don't already) their safety is THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. Not someone else's.
No argument there.
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sgreer
Apr 29, 2009, 2:46 PM
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In reply to: A sling is not a daisy chain, Dipshit.
F@#kin sport climbers
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wilcox510
Apr 29, 2009, 2:53 PM
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andersjr wrote: currupt4130 wrote: I won't climb without a sling girth hitched to my belay loop and a locker on the end of it. It's come in handy so often I can't even fathom leaving it on the ground. I use it when: -I need to give my belayer a break if I'm hang dogging -I need to clean top anchors on a route -I'm in direct to clean some gear that's impossibly stuck (thank you whoever left a nut on Four Sheets To The Wind) -As an initial connection when building an anchor on multi -When I'm setting up top ropes as a safety in case I trip and fall -When I'm goofing off at the base of the crag and playing with sketchy gear placements There's probably more that I'm missing, but that's a good bit of usage in my book. i can't fathom doing this. your belay loop is meant for metal that may slide up and down it. using nylon on this may create a nylon on nylon sawing effect that isn't so kind. do not just rely on this.
How does girth hitching your daisy (or whatever) into you belay loop cause more of a sawing effect than hitching it through your tie in points? I've usually done the latter, but I have done it through the belay loop and there is very little motion there, no sawing effect. In fact, I think (I could be wrong) that I saw a picture of a Metolius PAS hitched through a belay loop on the manufacturers packaging.
(This post was edited by wilcox510 on Apr 29, 2009, 2:59 PM)
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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 3:10 PM
Post #122 of 191
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wilcox510 wrote: How does girth hitching your daisy (or whatever) into you belay loop cause more of a sawing effect than hitching it through your tie in points?
Leaving a personal sling permanently g-hitched to yr tie-in is also a bad idea, as you may not be able to see the wear point if it's bad.
It's equally bad-to-worse for yr belay loop because of how much wear yr. belay loop typically takes. The reason they "float" is so that the wear will be randomly distributed rather than always recurring in the same spot.
That's what led to Todd's harness failure. Cf. all those threads.
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andersjr
Apr 29, 2009, 3:14 PM
Post #123 of 191
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wilcox510 wrote: andersjr wrote: currupt4130 wrote: I won't climb without a sling girth hitched to my belay loop and a locker on the end of it. It's come in handy so often I can't even fathom leaving it on the ground. I use it when: -I need to give my belayer a break if I'm hang dogging -I need to clean top anchors on a route -I'm in direct to clean some gear that's impossibly stuck (thank you whoever left a nut on Four Sheets To The Wind) -As an initial connection when building an anchor on multi -When I'm setting up top ropes as a safety in case I trip and fall -When I'm goofing off at the base of the crag and playing with sketchy gear placements There's probably more that I'm missing, but that's a good bit of usage in my book. i can't fathom doing this. your belay loop is meant for metal that may slide up and down it. using nylon on this may create a nylon on nylon sawing effect that isn't so kind. do not just rely on this. How does girth hitching your daisy (or whatever) into you belay loop cause more of a sawing effect than hitching it through your tie in points? I've usually done the latter, but I have done it through the belay loop and there is very little motion there, no sawing effect. In fact, I think (I could be wrong) that I saw a picture of a Metolius PAS hitched through a belay loop on the manufacturers packaging.
there is more room to sway. look at your owners manual, the belay loop is metal only!
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kachoong
Apr 29, 2009, 3:19 PM
Post #124 of 191
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k.l.k wrote: wilcox510 wrote: How does girth hitching your daisy (or whatever) into you belay loop cause more of a sawing effect than hitching it through your tie in points? Leaving a personal sling permanently g-hitched to yr tie-in is also a bad idea, as you may not be able to see the wear point if it's bad. It's equally bad-to-worse for yr belay loop because of how much wear yr. belay loop typically takes. The reason they "float" is so that the wear will be randomly distributed rather than always recurring in the same spot. That's what led to Todd's harness failure. Cf. all those threads.
I'd be more inclined to say that the belay loop would wear the PAS faster than the other way around. The belay loop is a lot sturdier. If girth-hitched to the belay loop in my opinion the PAS loop would wear out well before the belay loop does. This would also serve as a reminder for people to keep the PAS off the harness when not climbing (to help rotate the loop and not tie in the same point each time.
Seeing as people typically girth-hitch on the last loop of the PAS chain it could also be handy to once in a while alternate girth-hitching to the next loop along in order to save wear on the last loop... or, when you see the last loop of the PAS beginning to show wear, cut it off and use the next one along as the end.
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k.l.k
Apr 29, 2009, 3:35 PM
Post #125 of 191
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rgold wrote: k.l.k. rants about the increasing amount of gear people carry, and he has a point. . . . But perhaps he goes a bit overboard . . ..
I usually do. And this has become my standard complaint. I've gotten to the point that I can barely stand to even open this site anymore because it seems like part of the larger problem, namely, that Americans think that the proper application of some shiny bit of technology will solve everything.
As specialized bits of gear have proliferated, so have their misuse. Consider just this thread: Posters who don't even understand the difference between a dc and a sling; posters using dcs as dedicated personal tethers; posters eagerly repeating the single-most notorious mistake of recent rock climbing history.
So far as the gear thing goes, I'm still a minimalist when I can be (i.e. on moderate multi-pitch). I still frequently use my swami, my "prusik" is the perlon I use as a chalk bag belt, and although I have suffered the results of belaying massive falls back in the hip belay days, I've never gotten into the glove habit.
I know you've made some of these points before, so my response here is directed more at the peanut gallery. My sense is that you have a better appreciation of the aesthetics of engineering. That's a matter of personal taste as much as anything.
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