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dhorgan
Jun 29, 2009, 8:02 PM
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Just in case you were wondering, Shoo's post was probably the most direct answer to your question. Also, it wasn't explicitly said (although some other replies were fairly explicit) but it's considered a big no-no to rappel with the rope in direct contact with a piece of sling or cord (abrasion): you have to have a piece of metal between them. People have died by skipping this step.
Since you don't want to leave a biner behind($), you use a rap ring. Rap rings also have the advantage of not having a gate, so it's kind of like rapping off a single locking biner instead of a single non-locking biner.
One final detail (as I understand it) there are two kinds of rap rings, steel and aluminum. The aluminum ones are recognizable by a little seam running circumferentially. The steel ones are a bit thicker, and usually (always?) have a weld on them. The steel ones are stronger and much more abrasion-resistant (so I guess might be construed as more kosher for TR, but it is still a bad practice), the aluminum ones are much, much lighter and so good for carrying in your bail/emergency kit.
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angry
Jun 29, 2009, 8:28 PM
Post #28 of 47
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OK, I'll play nice.
The FIXE (or was it Petzl?) testing of steel rap rings was that for all intents and purposes they could not wear them out. They tried like hell and couldn't cause any significant damage.
They were able to damage ones that got fixed in place so the rings always had the rope run through the exact same spot.
So if the rings are jiggling free, I wouldn't mind for a second of you TR'd all day on them. If they're stuck, or oval, or have a biner jamming them into a fixed position, then treat them like any other anchor and rap off it.
Aluminum Rap rings come in two styles. The rolled ones you mentioned. They are super light, hollow, and weak looking. From my understanding though, the damn things are pretty strong. Still, I always want two of them. Then there are the solid ones like these. As you can see, they're rated at 23KN. They probably can be worn out faster than the steel ones but as long as they aren't locked in place will last a long ass time.
Finally, rapping vs. lowering. I set up my anchors that the bottom link is replaceable. Usually just a biner on the end of a quicklink. Sometimes a chain. This way, when stuff is worn, it's easy to replace. I say lower with impunity.
Metolius eco hangers, cold shuts, etc that are hard to replace and will wear out or get sharpened, well, then you should rap.
I don't have a hard and fast rule, I just try to evaluate it all on a case by case basis.
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jt512
Jun 29, 2009, 8:33 PM
Post #29 of 47
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dhorgan wrote: Just in case you were wondering, Shoo's post was probably the most direct answer to your question. Also, it wasn't explicitly said (although some other replies were fairly explicit) but it's considered a big no-no to rappel with the rope in direct contact with a piece of sling or cord (abrasion): you have to have a piece of metal between them. People have died by skipping this step.
That is false, and shoo was slightly wrong. You most certainly can rappel with your rope running directly through a sling that is in good condition. However, every time a rap rope is pulled through the sling, the sling gets abraded. This can only be done so many times before the strength of the sling becomes questionable. This is where the rap ring comes into play. If you anticipate that future parties will use your rap station, then equip it with a rap ring, so that when rap ropes get pulled they won't abrade the sling. In other words, rap rings are indicated primarily when the rap station is going to be permanent or semi-permanent. If you're just bailing, on the other hand, then you normally don't need to leave a rap ring behind.
Jay
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irregularpanda
Jun 29, 2009, 8:57 PM
Post #30 of 47
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angry wrote: That was a 5 star post and you know it. One star voting motherfucker.
I gave you 1 star because you whined about it.
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dhorgan
Jun 29, 2009, 9:18 PM
Post #31 of 47
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jt512 wrote: dhorgan wrote: Just in case you were wondering, Shoo's post was probably the most direct answer to your question. Also, it wasn't explicitly said (although some other replies were fairly explicit) but it's considered a big no-no to rappel with the rope in direct contact with a piece of sling or cord (abrasion): you have to have a piece of metal between them. People have died by skipping this step. That is false, and shoo was slightly wrong. You most certainly can rappel with your rope running directly through a sling that is in good condition. However, every time a rap rope is pulled through the sling, the sling gets abraded. This can only be done so many times before the strength of the sling becomes questionable. Jay
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moose_droppings
Jun 29, 2009, 9:25 PM
Post #32 of 47
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Fun to rap on, but wouldn't want to leave it behind
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angry
Jun 29, 2009, 9:25 PM
Post #33 of 47
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irregularpanda wrote: angry wrote: That was a 5 star post and you know it. One star voting motherfucker. I gave you 1 star because you whined about it.
I gave you one star because you have a problem with pancakes.
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marc801
Jun 29, 2009, 9:27 PM
Post #34 of 47
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dhorgan wrote: jt512 wrote: dhorgan wrote: Just in case you were wondering, Shoo's post was probably the most direct answer to your question. Also, it wasn't explicitly said (although some other replies were fairly explicit) but it's considered a big no-no to rappel with the rope in direct contact with a piece of sling or cord (abrasion): you have to have a piece of metal between them. People have died by skipping this step. That is false, and shoo was slightly wrong. You most certainly can rappel with your rope running directly through a sling that is in good condition. However, every time a rap rope is pulled through the sling, the sling gets abraded. This can only be done so many times before the strength of the sling becomes questionable. Jay Yep, I guess that's what I meant. I wouldn't feel good about leaving abraded webbing behind for the next group of folks, though, so I'd use a ring or a biner where I could...which is most of the time. The main reason I mentioned it was because it seemed like it was part of the answer to the OP's question. But you're quite right, you can rap directly on the sling as a one-time thing. Looks creepy, though.
Something not mentioned yet... rap rings are also used in situations where the friction of rope on webbing added to friction over rock already in the system would make the pull-down difficult or impossible.
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sungam
Jun 29, 2009, 9:49 PM
Post #35 of 47
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angry wrote: There's something about the wording of that post that makes it sound like I am the one in the picture. It could be I guess, you've never met me.
Everybody, that really is him.
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angry
Jun 29, 2009, 9:54 PM
Post #36 of 47
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sungam wrote: angry wrote: There's something about the wording of that post that makes it sound like I am the one in the picture. It could be I guess, you've never met me. Yes I have. Everybody, that really is him.
PM++?
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irregularpanda
Jun 29, 2009, 10:09 PM
Post #37 of 47
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angry wrote: irregularpanda wrote: angry wrote: That was a 5 star post and you know it. One star voting motherfucker. I gave you 1 star because you whined about it. I gave you one star because you have a problem with pancakes.
NOOOOOO!!!!!!!
YOU SAID MY TRIGGER WORD, NOW I WILL SMASH THINGS!!!!!!!
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USnavy
Jun 30, 2009, 10:45 AM
Post #38 of 47
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chilli wrote: jt512 wrote: USnavy wrote: Steel rap rings are used at the top of climbs for top roping. Here we attach a chain to each bolt and the chain is attached to a big steel rap ring. When we TR and/ or lower off climbs the rope goes through the rap ring. Please, unless you are in Hawaii, don't TR through the rap rings. Jay it's actually kosher in hawaii? i wouldn't think TR on fixed gear is a good policy anywhere. other people have to use that stuff too.
1. Our rap rings are 1/2" - 1" thick grade 316 stainless steel and hold 50 - 150 kN.
2. Hawaii is not a desert. You will not collect any materials off the deck in your rope abrasive enough to cause any real wear on the rings here.
3. We have retired rap rings that are 10 years old that show absolutely no signs of wear from the rope. In fact we don’t have a single rap ring (out of hundreds) that show any wear from TRing.
Running your rope through the rap rings here will not damage them. Consequently it’s an acceptable practice to TR on the rings instead of draws here since you will destroy your rope from excessive usage well before you will even scratch the rap rings.
In order for your rope to damage the rings to any reasonable extent the rope must contain abrasives that are harder then steel. Well there simply aren’t many extreme abrasives in the dirt we have laying on the ground.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Jun 30, 2009, 10:50 AM)
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scotty1974
Jun 30, 2009, 3:15 PM
Post #39 of 47
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As you can see there are a myriad of different uses for rap rings. I carry 1-2 with me along with 1" tubular webbing anytime I am multipitch climbing. In case I need to bail for whatever reason, I have a safe setup that is pretty cheap, as opposed to leaving behind a biner etc. I still carry a bail biner, but I'd rather leave behind a $2.50 ring. Depending on the douche-bags in your area, this can become a permanent rap anchor providing the webbing is changed when needed.
You can rap statically of webbing or cordellete, but all in all, $2.50 is worth that extra piece of mind. You may think that your rappell is smooth, but you might be sawing nylon back and forth.
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shockabuku
Jun 30, 2009, 3:23 PM
Post #40 of 47
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sungam wrote: angry wrote: There's something about the wording of that post that makes it sound like I am the one in the picture. It could be I guess, you've never met me. Yes I have. Everybody, that really is him.
If it was, we'd all know.
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jt512
Jun 30, 2009, 3:34 PM
Post #41 of 47
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scotty1974 wrote: You can rap statically of webbing or cordellete, but all in all, $2.50 is worth that extra piece of mind.
$2.50? It must either be a small piece or a small mind.
Jay
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angry
Jun 30, 2009, 3:38 PM
Post #42 of 47
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irregularpanda wrote: angry wrote: irregularpanda wrote: angry wrote: That was a 5 star post and you know it. One star voting motherfucker. I gave you 1 star because you whined about it. I gave you one star because you have a problem with pancakes. NOOOOOO!!!!!!! YOU SAID MY TRIGGER WORD, NOW I WILL SMASH THINGS!!!!!!!
I'm eating pancakes right now, FYI.
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coolcat83
Jun 30, 2009, 4:13 PM
Post #43 of 47
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j_ung wrote: USnavy wrote: Steel rap rings are used at the top of climbs for top roping. Here we attach a chain to each bolt and the chain is attached to a big steel rap ring. When we TR and/ or lower off climbs the rope goes through the rap ring. This is likely specific to your geographic location. Around my neck of the woods, we frown on anybody TR-ing through fixed gear, including steel rings.
2nd that, if it's fixed try not to wear it down unless you have no choice but to lower or something unforeseen
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scotty1974
Jun 30, 2009, 4:14 PM
Post #44 of 47
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Codfish jokes aside, I was referring to the rap ring... 
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cracklover
Jun 30, 2009, 5:01 PM
Post #45 of 47
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jt512 wrote: dhorgan wrote: Just in case you were wondering, Shoo's post was probably the most direct answer to your question. Also, it wasn't explicitly said (although some other replies were fairly explicit) but it's considered a big no-no to rappel with the rope in direct contact with a piece of sling or cord (abrasion): you have to have a piece of metal between them. People have died by skipping this step. That is false, and shoo was slightly wrong. You most certainly can rappel with your rope running directly through a sling that is in good condition.
An important fact to be aware of, though, if you're going to try this: If you are doing a rap with two ropes of different sizes tied together, as you rap, the thinner rope will move through your device faster than the fatter rope, and the rope can slowly saw through the sling. Because the rope is weighted, this is far harder on the sling than pulling an unweighted rope once you're done.
To prevent this, if you don't want to leave a rap ring (or biner), you must orient the ropes so that the knot is wedged against the webbing. Since the thin rope is the one that wants to go through your device faster, that means it is the thin rope that will want to move up and over the sling. Orient the knot so that the knot is on the thin rope side of the sling.
Or just leave a rap ring - you're better off.
GO
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j_ung
Jul 1, 2009, 4:48 PM
Post #46 of 47
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acorneau wrote: GeneralZon wrote: Didn't realize how versatile rap rings were. Just do what Angry does with his rap rings:
WOW! Angry is far hotter than I originally pictured him.
Edit: Humph... nevermind. Looks like others beat me to the punchline.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Jul 1, 2009, 4:52 PM)
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james481
Jul 1, 2009, 10:20 PM
Post #47 of 47
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j_ung wrote: acorneau wrote: GeneralZon wrote: Didn't realize how versatile rap rings were. Just do what Angry does with his rap rings: [image]http://www.sofiavergarafan.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/sofia-vergara-sexy-green-bikini.jpg[/image] WOW! Angry is far hotter than I originally pictured him. Edit: Humph... nevermind. Looks like others beat me to the punchline.
Still waiting for the "raping that route" joke though... disappointing... 
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